Changes Focused on Boosting Game Performance

[nobodynobody1426]

So if there's a number it's sometimes multiplied out accordingly. Is there a balance reason why you're leaving some things out?

You said before you've considered non-damage effects. Fine, evidently, you've considered them, and decided they need to be nerfed. But why? All explanations have been about performance, but this, and taking away multi-hit saves, is clearly a gameplay balance decision.

If you stop and think for a moment, those two are together. It has nothing to do with game balance and all about reducing the number of special actions that have to be processed which is currently resulting in some central game system choking out. That means Mr ProcsAlot and his guild of ProcMasters running VoD/THTH/PN/Dryad/Baba/ect all with debuff weapons will lag an entire set of servers out, not one instance, not one game world, no everything that happens to be running on that piece of hardware gets turned into a slideshow for however long it takes them to finish the fight.

That is why you can be a level 3 running some harbor quest solo and suddenly lag and stuttering out of nowhere. It's not you, it's not your server, it's some guild somewhere running a raid with a ton of LGS weapons and other various other abilities and traits that do improved destruction / vulnerability / ect. Just press "Z" while targeting a raid boss and watch the ridiculous number of things that keep cycling.

Is this crappy design? Most certainly, apparently it's been around since the game was created. Changing it would likely require some platform redesign and changing base code, which might not be something they want to fund for such an older game.

[redoubt]

So is it your intent for builds that use procs to go away?

For example, a ranged shiradi character might use:
1. Stay frosty to apply a slow and do some extra damage. You are making the damage work correctly, but losing the extra chance at a slow.
2. Pin - only one chance to go off instead of two.
3. Otto's whister - only one chance to go off instead of two.
4. Nerve venom - chance of the proc now half as well.
5. Metoric Star ruby for KD proc.

Another example is a TWF assassin:
1. Balanced attacks as a twist. How are you accounting for half the chances of this proc'n? This is a light armor low defense type of build that must get very close to function. Some sort of CC is very important.
2. Improved deception. Less hits, less procs. How are you accounting for this ability?
3. The vistani tree has rapid slash which boost doublestrike.
4. The vistani tree also has an alacrity action boost. Its pretty clear that high rate of attack and procs are central to the original design of this. How are you accounting for the loss of this?
5. With two daggers I'm currently using 2 snow rubies for CC. One instakill ruby and one meteoric star ruby for KD affect. 75% of what I slotted was for CC.

I am happy you are accounting for the damage, but this is a major debuff to the CC abilities and as a result the survivability of such a builds.

It really sounds like you just want these things to go away, yet you just introduced a whole bunch of new augments that are proc based. Did you expect people to not use them?

In the case of something like the snow rubies, they require the mob to roll a 1 for it to work. I would suggest you scale the save DC on these to go with the level of the weapon. Maybe 20+(weapon level *3).
For proc like the meteoric star ruby, double the chance of it knocking mobs down.

This is a HUGE AND SWEEPING change you are making. There are a lot of abilities and items that this affects. It has the potential to eliminate and entire playstyle. (Just a month after you killed a different one.)

Years ago, the company nerfed TWF in the name of lag fix. It did not fix it. Now here we are again. Also, the procs we are talking about have been in the game since before the really bad lag started less than a year ago.

[mikarddo]

Things that deal bonus damage, or heal, or deal stat damage - if there's a number, it's multiplied out accordingly. So yes, Stat Damage and Vampirism, and no, not Negative Levels or stackable Debuffs.

Stackable debuffs have a number too - so why not multiply that?

Also, what about the things where the "number" is a duration? Nerve Venom, Para Arrows etc? Multiplying the duration would atleast give something - even if its nowhere as good as having multiple chances to hit in the first place.

[kanordog]

Things that deal bonus damage, or heal, or deal stat damage - if there's a number, it's multiplied out accordingly. So yes, Stat Damage and Vampirism, and no, not Negative Levels or stackable Debuffs.

Great news, my neg level spammer build also goes to the bin along with my thrower.

[dkyle]

If you stop and think for a moment, those two are together. It has nothing to do with game balance and all about reducing the number of special actions that have to be processed which is currently resulting in some central game system choking out. That means Mr ProcsAlot and his guild of ProcMasters running VoD/THTH/PN/Dryad/Baba/ect all with debuff weapons will lag an entire set of servers out, not one instance, not one game world, no everything that happens to be running on that piece of hardware gets turned into a slideshow for however long it takes them to finish the fight.

That is why you can be a level 3 running some harbor quest solo and suddenly lag and stuttering out of nowhere. It's not you, it's not your server, it's some guild somewhere running a raid with a ton of LGS weapons and other various other abilities and traits that do improved destruction / vulnerability / ect. Just press "Z" while targeting a raid boss and watch the ridiculous number of things that keep cycling.

Is this crappy design? Most certainly, apparently it's been around since the game was created. Changing it would likely require some platform redesign and changing base code, which might not be something they want to fund for such an older game.

I'm not asking for more effect procs back, I'm asking that the effects that do proc be more effective on multihits, the same way damage is more effective. I do not believe that multiplying the number of debuff/buff stacks is an insurmountable performance problem. It's one multiplication, among the many already being done on damage. Similarly, I can't believe that rolling an extra save or so on a proc or tactical ability is anything remotely as taxing as applying a whole new effect.

Also, what about the things where the "number" is a duration? Nerve Venom, Para Arrows etc? Multiplying the duration would atleast give something - even if its nowhere as good as having multiple chances to hit in the first place.

Good idea


Also, how about taking the save off CC procs which grant them, and adjust the % accordingly? Since that initial % is cheap to process, wouldn't this be a win-win, if the overall success rate goes up a bit? If you want them to scale by tier, maybe scale the % based on the tier of the weapon vs the tier of the quest. E.g., a Legendary Freezing Ice in a Legendary quest procs at 2% with no save, but in the same quests, an Epic Freezing Ice is 1% and Heroic Freezing Ice in a Legendary quest would only be 0.5%. Epic Freezing Ice in an Epic quest would be 2%, as would Heroic Freezing Ice in a Heroic quest.

[barecm]

Things that deal bonus damage, or heal, or deal stat damage - if there's a number, it's multiplied out accordingly. So yes, Stat Damage and Vampirism, and no, not Negative Levels or stackable Debuffs.

This is a huge nerf and it is yet another example of how you stick it to certain builds (AOE / IPS users) to further the single target dps that you for whatever reason want bows to have. I will say this again... we do not want this. Just remove bows from the game already so I can quit DDO with a clear conscious. You guys have done nothing to show that you do not really hate bow users as has been suggested over the last 15 years. In fact, all you do is solidify it.

[Oxarhamar]

Things that deal bonus damage, or heal, or deal stat damage - if there's a number, it's multiplied out accordingly. So yes, Stat Damage and Vampirism, and no, not Negative Levels or stackable Debuffs.

The solution is to double the chance for those procs or increase the stacks on a proc

I have an Ooze spawning weapon that will see less Oozes spawn double the damage won’t make it better at what it is good for double % of spawn chance should equalize it out

I like this direction this is going but don’t leave all this stuff out of the pass

[barecm]

The solution is to double the chance for those procs or increase the stacks on a proc

I have an Ooze spawning weapon that will see less Oozes spawn double the damage won’t make it better at what it is good for double % of spawn chance should equalize it out

I like this direction this is going but don’t leave all this stuff out of the pass

I agree for things with a % chance to proc. What about procs that are based off a DC? If you have 2x or 3x arrows per attack, you previously had 2 or 3 times to apply an effect. Considering how difficult it is for a ranged character to have high enough DCs to be effective, it is a huge nerf to AA builds.

Just as a reminder, this is what SSG posted as one of the 6 intended goals:

Don't significantly shift the role or strength of individual Enhancement Trees - Let the pass' other features bring all of them up together.
We have a number of trees that support Bows, and we don't plan on using this pass to shift their relative strengths or focuses. Failing grade here. You have done the opposite.
You crushed AA and killed Moncher

Deepwood Stalker: DPS-focused tree that balances Melee and Bows. Incomplete. Some potential, but since there are so many nerfs with the boosts given, it is hard to really tell if it is better or not
Arcane Archer: Crowd Control-focused tree with a secondary Elemental DPS theme. You nerfed ability to hit with AA effects. Big Time Fail
Kensei: A Bow DPS tree (if you want it to be, anyway). Neutral. Since fighter get a bunch of feats, no real big difference
Knight of the Chalice: A Favored Weapon DPS-focused tree, and if Bows are your Favored Weapon, it can work. (We've made one change for this tree below, to aid in the fact that acquiring Bow feats is harder for Paladin than Fighter or Ranger). Pass. Giving boosts to low level feats helps non ranger or fighter builds
Warpriest/War Soul: A hybrid DPS/Casting tree with the full backing of Divine Healing spells. (We're still talking about whether or not we feel it necessary to add Bow-specific bonuses to these two trees to support Silver Flame Cleric/FvS.) Pass. Giving boosts to low level feats helps non ranger or fighter builds
Zen Archery Monks: Usually a hybrid of some kind, we want to make sure they're supported also without becoming disproportionately better or worse. You killed Moncher. Big time Fail

The goal was to keep builds viable. For that, you get a failing grade. If anything, you narrowed the diversification with what is was seen in preview 3.

[rabidfox]

The solution is to double the chance for those procs or increase the stacks on a proc

I have an Ooze spawning weapon that will see less Oozes spawn double the damage won’t make it better at what it is good for double % of spawn chance should equalize it out

I like this direction this is going but don’t leave all this stuff out of the pass

They've already said upping the proc chance won't happen as that goes against the whole purpose of the update to reduce the number of procs getting queued up. We might see increased stacks/durations, but I have a sneaky feeling we won't see much on that front until the epic destiny revamp where stuff will get baked in with those changes.

[Oxarhamar]

They've already said upping the proc chance won't happen as that goes against the whole purpose of the update to reduce the number of procs getting queued up. We might see increased stacks/durations, but I have a sneaky feeling we won't see much on that front until the epic destiny revamp where stuff will get baked in with those changes.

They’ve said they are reducing number of attack calculations getting queued by doubling up

procs are chance on each attack

So procs are lower by the change but that wasn’t the goal laid out more of a side effect of the intended change

[Oxarhamar]

[QUOTE=Cocomajobo;6420983
What this means in practice is that no matter how many projectiles a shuriken thrower uses, or a dual-crossbow player fires, the maximum rate of an on-hit effect is now directly linked to your actual attack speed, and therefore, is significantly reduced. This has the potential to greatly reduce the amount of actual “attacks” in DDO without greatly disrupting player behavior.

.[/QUOTE]

That bit

Changing a proc % like meteoric will have still be limited by number of attacks which they are hardcapping

[rabidfox]

They’ve said they are reducing number of attack calculations getting queued by doubling up

procs are chance on each attack

So procs are lower by the change but that wasn’t the goal laid out more of a side effect of the intended change

It was directly the goal from what's been said. The goal is to reduce the number of effects that go into the queue, replacing the proc rate lost from the doublestrike/shoot change with an increase proc chance just recreates the same issue.

Great question! Effects that bounce based on filtration - aka, things with a proc chance, or things that only work on certain Genus or Species, or things that have cooldowns, or things that only work if the target is in a certain state - that filtration means that the effect doesn't fire, so the effect doesn't get added to the queue. Only effects that actually "go off" - those are what needs to get processed by our queue, and therefore those are what's causing the problems.

We are trying to reduce the amount of times over a period that procs happen, and changes that put us to the same amount of procs per second will not fix our effects queue problem.

[Oxarhamar]

It was directly the goal from what's been said. The goal is to reduce the number of effects that go into the queue, replacing the proc rate lost from the doublestrike/shoot change with an increase proc chance just recreates the same issue.

Then strengthening the procs that do go off would be the alternative solution

[Singular]

We are trying to reduce the amount of times over a period that procs happen, and changes that put us to the same amount of procs per second will not fix our effects queue problem.

So, it's the procs themselves and not the extra calculations that are causing the lag?

I'd have thought one calculation of, say, 21% of X happening would be less laggy than 3 calculations of 7% of X happening (for a repeater running Stay Frosty, for ex).

This change will be a massive power nerf to ranged + twf procs, making CC options unwieldy for such builds. It seems to me the variety of fun, functional builds will be reduced and people will be streamlined toward simple dps options.

[rabidfox]

So, it's the procs themselves and not the extra calculations that are causing the lag?

I'd have thought one calculation of, say, 21% of X happening would be less laggy than 3 calculations of 7% of X happening (for a repeater running Stay Frosty, for ex).

This change will be a massive power nerf to ranged + twf procs, making CC options unwieldy for such builds. It seems to me the variety of fun, functional builds will be reduced and people will be streamlined toward simple dps options.

This thread is so huge, it's easy to miss previous dev responses (I only remember this one because it was in response to what I'd had posted that got quoted by Lynnabel). Although, your repeater example is a bit odd as repeaters are still doing 3x shots per trigger pull so with them it would going from the current 3x, 6x, or 9x 7% proc chances (depending on doubleshot %) down to always being 3x 7% proc chances post update (where the doubleshot won't be adding extra proc tries).

This is correct. Effects that are culled by filtration (which includes proc chance) do not meaningfully contribute to the type of lag we're specifically targeting with this change. It is only when an effect actually goes off that it gets added to the queue.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6421617

[Deathlylife]

I agree for things with a % chance to proc. What about procs that are based off a DC? If you have 2x or 3x arrows per attack, you previously had 2 or 3 times to apply an effect. Considering how difficult it is for a ranged character to have high enough DCs to be effective, it is a huge nerf to AA builds.

Just as a reminder, this is what SSG posted as one of the 6 intended goals:

Don't significantly shift the role or strength of individual Enhancement Trees - Let the pass' other features bring all of them up together.
We have a number of trees that support Bows, and we don't plan on using this pass to shift their relative strengths or focuses. Failing grade here. You have done the opposite.
You crushed AA and killed Moncher

Deepwood Stalker: DPS-focused tree that balances Melee and Bows. Incomplete. Some potential, but since there are so many nerfs with the boosts given, it is hard to really tell if it is better or not
Arcane Archer: Crowd Control-focused tree with a secondary Elemental DPS theme. You nerfed ability to hit with AA effects. Big Time Fail
Kensei: A Bow DPS tree (if you want it to be, anyway). Neutral. Since fighter get a bunch of feats, no real big difference
Knight of the Chalice: A Favored Weapon DPS-focused tree, and if Bows are your Favored Weapon, it can work. (We've made one change for this tree below, to aid in the fact that acquiring Bow feats is harder for Paladin than Fighter or Ranger). Pass. Giving boosts to low level feats helps non ranger or fighter builds
Warpriest/War Soul: A hybrid DPS/Casting tree with the full backing of Divine Healing spells. (We're still talking about whether or not we feel it necessary to add Bow-specific bonuses to these two trees to support Silver Flame Cleric/FvS.) Pass. Giving boosts to low level feats helps non ranger or fighter builds
Zen Archery Monks: Usually a hybrid of some kind, we want to make sure they're supported also without becoming disproportionately better or worse. You killed Moncher. Big time Fail

The goal was to keep builds viable. For that, you get a failing grade. If anything, you narrowed the diversification with what is was seen in preview 3.

I am sorry but I disagree with some of the grading here.

Don't significantly shift the role or strength of individual Enhancement Trees - Let the pass' other features bring all of them up together.
We have a number of trees that support Bows, and we don't plan on using this pass to shift their relative strengths or focuses.

Monkcher is not an enhancement tree. Not that removing the playstyle should be commended, but it does stay within the stated enhancement tree goal. Considering they did later state they hoped to keep zen archery monks viable they do fail on this front as you stated but I am unsure how that would have been easily possible. Sadly if left alone it would become hard to justify any other build. I know the first thought I had after preview 1 was "I guess all bow builds have to be monk now". While diversification is narrowed with its removal, leaving it as it was would not have narrowed but rather entirely removed diversification since it would have been a significant dps loss to not play one. It may have been better to replace the ability, but monk has nothing else supporting bows right now so any attempt to replace it I feel would have been received just as badly for not supporting the playstyle. Considering they do not want to shift enhancement trees, that also takes care of looking to save the monkcher in the tree. Hopefully monkcher may return with the monk pass down the line but as for following their stated goals it seems a necessity to be done how it is planned.

How did AA get nerfed exactly? Their damage will stay the same since it will multiply, just the cc will have reduced number of hits. The cc is not based on a proc chance, it is every single hit and just has a save. Now you may argue that reduced hits will reduce effectiveness if things make their save, but honestly, if the dc is borderline it should not be held up by the crutch of hitting it so many times that the enemy rolls a 1. If the cc is lacking then boost dcs. Casters can't really fish for failed saves and take spell points each time. It costs no spell points beyond activating the stance for an AA to cc. If the goal is cc, heavy gear investment much like a caster seems reasonable and I do not see why AA should be able to continue as they have been, fishing for procs. The only true reduction in viability I see for AA is the vorpal procs but it doesn't seem too big of a deal. I kind of like the idea that everyone is coming closer to the total number of procs seen with the doubleshot changes. It may allow for the return of fun procs like Mortal Fear since they can benefit all builds more equally and not have entire builds built around fishing for the procs.

With only one fail (Monkcher) then overall the pass looks to be pretty good since everything else was rated as neutral or good.

[Hawkwier]

The more I see the wide ranging impact these changes are having the more I think you've gone too far yet again and this will cause more problems than it will solve.

Do you really need to apply this approach to every proc? Wouldn't applying it on damage scalable procs only first be worth a try to see how far that helps wit the lag whilst avoiding all the negative consequences of it on other procs?

I know it's probably significantly more work than a more simplistic blanket approach, but given the impact, it's more important to be right than quick here, and that extra time and effort is warranted.

Please, pause for thought, before dogma and taking the easy option has you do something we all regret.

I'm currently against these changes as they stand.

[Xgya]

The solution is to double the chance for those procs or increase the stacks on a proc

I have an Ooze spawning weapon that will see less Oozes spawn double the damage won’t make it better at what it is good for double % of spawn chance should equalize it out

I like this direction this is going but don’t leave all this stuff out of the pass

I'll try to explain this differently.

The problem is the server receiving too many demands for that [insert proc name] (in your case, ooze spawning) at once.
The server doesn't get that demand all the time, only when the d100 works in your favor.
The rest of the time, the demand isn't sent at all.

[CaptainSpacePony]

It was directly the goal from what's been said. The goal is to reduce the number of effects that go into the queue, replacing the proc rate lost from the doublestrike/shoot change with an increase proc chance just recreates the same issue.

I've noticed a recurring concern about the significant nerf to non damage procs (shiradi, neg lvl, paralysis, vorpal/banishing/smiting, etc).

These attacks seem to fall into three categories:
1. Things that proc some arbitrary % of the time (shiradi)
2. Things that proc on all hits (paralyzers etc)
3. Things that proc some of the time based on attack roll (on crit or vorpal etc)

Each of these probably require a different adjustment to address the nerf.

1. Things that proc some arbitrary % of the time proc more often based on multiattack probabilty. eg. 100% multiattack gives shiradi 13.5% proc chance. (.93^2).
2. Things that proc on all hits get additional procs added to the queue based on multiattack %. While this is exactly what you're getting rid of, the fact this may be a smaller quantity may keep it below a problem threshold.
3. Things that proc some of the time based on attack roll... mmm... uhh... I got nothing.

[LightBear]

I'll try to explain this differently.

The problem is the server receiving too many demands for that [insert proc name] (in your case, ooze spawning) at once.
The server doesn't get that demand all the time, only when the d100 works in your favor.
The rest of the time, the demand isn't sent at all.

I'll explain the request differently as well then.

Instead of one ooze to pop, we expect two oozes to pop now.
Here an image of the Stormreaver still hanging on to two of his favorites.




We kinda expect the same from other procs like debuffs.
I get that crippling is kinda hard to deal with as doubling it would just mean entanglement instead of slow.
Or at least put some vulnerability on top of debuffs.