I am suddenly dreading Epic Destiny changes

[Chai]

Now there is a wonderful piece of revisionist history. Yes, the developers wanted to replace the current system with one like the Shared Bank. This would have demolished all player ability to organize equipment in the bank. The players pleaded with the developers to add sorting functions and tabs to the interface, exactly what they did for The Lord of the Rings Online. The developers said, "No", you keep what you have or get an unsorted mess. The players were right to reject a bad solution and ask for a better one. The developers should have come back with a revised version including sorting and storage drawers but they decided to drop everything. That fiasco was 100% on the developers and 0% on the players.

All new inventory developments since then have have search functions which allow for far more organization than anything which came before, which literally zero people have complained about. The "we're going to change it to an unsorted mess" claim is simply incorrect. Most of the moaning was from folks who felt they needed to have a MINIMUM of one slot for every named item in the game - who were admittedly using their TR caches as limitless storage, and those who fear change because "spaghetti code" and other buzz terms which do not apply to most situations. We had a shot at having the TR cache issues resolved with this change proposal, and ForumDDO™ blew it so bad the breeze can still be felt today.

What I see here is a lengthening of the grind due to partitioning of character power (how can we know? they already stated it they wanted it to be more gradual), which results in more irritation, which results in (hopefully for the company) more people purchasing their way through the irritating parts - which will of course lead to yet another new grind system being sold to us, with the ability for us to purchase our way through that as well.

Add on top of this that they already stated they would like to address lag issues before merging servers, but we see no such concern about addressing lag issues before dividing the player base up even more than it already is, which means more instances, more players resorting to crushing lower difficulties where red-alerting-on-purpose is survivable (and even encouraged given the AOE nature of DDO) rather than dealing with the tedium of slogging through high mob HP totals with less character power, etc...

How do we know? Pattern recognition since 2009. Its on them to break the pattern. Its not on us to believe or assume anything different will occur.

If they wanted character power acquisition to be more gradual they would change the level 27-29 gap before anything happened with destinies. This isn't for game balance, its for selling mitigation of time consumption.

[GroundhogDay]

If you care at all about being able to play DDO a few years from now, you need to care about new players.

Another reason we should care about new players is that we don't want the devs to be forced towards a model where they keep doubling down on milking whales for the game to continue. But this post is already long enough, I won't get into that.

To address your first point: I don't have to do anything, the game could shut down tomorrow and i wouldn't bat an eye. What i do care about is not bending the knee to a minority of players because of a misplaced sense of self entitlement.

On to the rest: This ain't about new players, it's about the "dev" team pulling the same old tired tricks on us, they want to put in place another grind and sell shortcuts to the whales. Why do they do that? I can only speculate, but i believe they're just not that good at their jobs. Creating compelling storylines and good graphical assets is hard and they know that increasing the grind and selling means to bypass said grind is a more cost effective way of monetization.

They will be doing exactly what you're saying without anyone forcing them, they chose to run the game this way. With your pearlclutching about noobs you're just giving them a free justification to do exactly what you don't want them to do.

Me? I know when someone is playing silly buggers and has palmed the die to throw a six. (that's a Terry Pratchett quote, be calm everyone)

[Chai]

Me? I know when someone is playing silly buggers and has palmed the die to throw a six. (that's a Terry Pratchett quote, be calm everyone)

Sometimes ya gotta roll the hard six.
-Admiral Adama, Battlestar Galactica.

[yfernbottom]

To address your first point: I don't have to do anything, the game could shut down tomorrow and i wouldn't bat an eye. What i do care about is not bending the knee to a minority of players because of a misplaced sense of self entitlement.

On to the rest: This ain't about new players, it's about the "dev" team pulling the same old tired tricks on us, they want to put in place another grind and sell shortcuts to the whales. Why do they do that? I can only speculate, but i believe they're just not that good at their jobs. Creating compelling storylines and good graphical assets is hard and they know that increasing the grind and selling means to bypass said grind is a more cost effective way of monetization.

They will be doing exactly what you're saying without anyone forcing them, they chose to run the game this way. With your pearlclutching about noobs you're just giving them a free justification to do exactly what you don't want them to do.

Me? I know when someone is playing silly buggers and has palmed the die to throw a six. (that's a Terry Pratchett quote, be calm everyone)

The devs have made a ton of changes that screw new players over the years, and absolutely refuse to make a few very small common sense changes that would help a ton. A good case in point is that almost all of the premade builds are absolutely terrible. They consist of nothing more than a giant new player trap on the character creation screen. It would take someone an afternoon to fix them, so it's pretty obvious they don't care a lot about new players. Or how about something that gets new players to open up the adventure journal to the entire game doesn't look like a completely random jumble of quests to them?

So like you I very much doubt that new players are the primary motivation behind the changes. This just happens to be one system that is so terrible for new players that I think practically any change is probably for the better (but the devs are singularly talented at "Corrupt a wish", so we'll see about that). I would also be pretty upset to see the game shutter any time soon, so I do see new players as important.

There isn't anything else much like DDO on the market. The closest thing is probably Champions Online, and it's not nearly as good as this game. The content is really generic, and you have to cough up $30 to even unlock freeform character builds.

[GroundhogDay]

The devs have made a ton of changes that screw new players over the years, and absolutely refuse to make a few very small common sense changes that would help a ton. A good case in point is that almost all of the premade builds are absolutely terrible. They consist of nothing more than a giant new player trap on the character creation screen. It would take someone an afternoon to fix them, so it's pretty obvious they don't care a lot about new players. Or how about something that gets new players to open up the adventure journal to the entire game doesn't look like a completely random jumble of quests to them?

So like you I very much doubt that new players are the primary motivation behind the changes. This just happens to be one system that is so terrible for new players that I think practically any change is probably for the better (but the devs are singularly talented at "Corrupt a wish", so we'll see about that). I would also be pretty upset to see the game shutter any time soon, so I do see new players as important.

There isn't anything else much like DDO on the market. The closest thing is probably Champions Online, and it's not nearly as good as this game. The content is really generic, and you have to cough up $30 to even unlock freeform character builds.

They made more bad decisions that screwed people actually playing the game than they screwed potential new players. Again, i wouldn't care in the slightest if the game just vanished into thin air, i would simply go on playing tabletop (not d&d thou) and wouldn't even ever come near to another mmo due to the bad taste ddo left in my mouth. The only reasons i still play is the investment i made over the years (both money and time) and real life friends with whom i shoot the poo while playing, the game in and on itself has nothing to do with the reasons i play. We coud be playing checkers and we still would have a blast.

This one system is the only leg up when going epic, especially low epics, i did my grind, you probably did yours, everyone did theirs, new players can do it too. For all i care they could give any new player full maxed eds just by virtue of being new players, i dont care as long as it doesn't touch me.

[gringofoot]

I read everyone's comments.

Some people posted build links and gear strategies. Those are helpful to some of us and I always want ideas...or at the very least, I like to see how other players set themselves up in this game. So, definitely thanks for those.

I still find myself wondering why change ED? If anything needs an update or revision...how about the old Epic gear system with scrolls+shards+seals? I mean, I keep all those crafting ingredients but - why? That gear is toothless. When was the last time any of us farmed Sands epics or VoN epics to make anything besides epic SoS? epic Fens?

But, OK devs....you don't like something in ED. What is it?

I looked for forum posts complaining about Epic Destiny spheres / points / anything and there are not many. Players aren't complaining too much, and I surely have not seen an issue with it. Certainly not to the level of demanding an update.

Epic Destiny spheres have been a slog to get all the points, sometimes in builds that did not benefit from the particular sphere I was trying to fill out. I put my head down, soldiered on and max'd them out. We all did. The reward for it was never having to do that again. If I am doing something like that every time I level from 20-27...I may just max out on racial PL's first before I even venture back into the ED slog.

I'm also seeing this other thread about Bows getting nerfed. Bows that took a lot of effort to farm and earn.

I mean, if they want to work on something...the graphics could use an upgrade. There are a lot of high-resolution, stunningly beautiful games out there.

If this is about revenue, I guess I can't hold it against SSG and the devs . If SSG is trying to find ways to incentivize us into buying things like XP boosts, tomes or whatever, I understand...this is a business. But, I would hope that making the game more attractive and attracting new players will prevail over finding new ways to make (force) the existing player base pay more $$$.

I mean, the devs did create the game and bring us to this place so far. So, they hopefully are taking us someplace good with these changes. I for one would genuinely love to hear what this ED big hork is all about...before it's set in stone. Give us a chance to say what we like / don't like about Epic Destiny...or tell us what's broken...or tell us about the amazing new wonderful thing you figured out that will make DDO unbelievably better for new and old players.

My suggestion to SSG and the devs is this:

Make it pretty. Make it spectacular. Make it shiny. Make it explode on the screen in wonder and beauty. Make it want you to keep on playing. Do that...and you will get all the $$$ you need.

[Annex]

All new inventory developments since then have have search functions which allow for far more organization than anything which came before, which literally zero people have complained about. The "we're going to change it to an unsorted mess" claim is simply incorrect. Most of the moaning was from folks who felt they needed to have a MINIMUM of one slot for every named item in the game - who were admittedly using their TR caches as limitless storage, and those who fear change because "spaghetti code" and other buzz terms which do not apply to most situations. We had a shot at having the TR cache issues resolved with this change proposal, and ForumDDO™ blew it so bad the breeze can still be felt today.

My memory of those discussions varies vastly from yours.

.....

I have no opinion on the changes to Epic Destinies until I actually see them. Of course, if they suck, by then it will be too late.

[Hawkwier]

Biggest potential pitfall for me is what they do about twists.

Right now a 3x Epic Completionist can have level twists at 4,3,3,1,1 for example.

The power of twists is these can be accessed without having to have the pre-requisite points thresholds in their EDs active.

As I understand the changes, moving to something more like the enhancement system is intended.

If that means that in order to access the same levels of twists, you need to have spent points across all active trees, that's quite a stretch of the twists are spread across multiple ED,s.

For example, to replicate current ED power In the example above this could mean needing enough points to max your main ED plus enough to hit T4 in another tree, plus enough to hit T3 in two more trees, plus enough for two more T1 abilities.

Trouble is that to do that with all the points necessary you're also picking up a huge amount of other abilities on the way.

This is going to be problematic to balance.

Another issue is that currently it's possible to switch EDs relatively easily say from FoTW to US for a bit of tanking on a raid if necessary. The mechanics of that are a quick visit to the Fatespinner as the US tree is already populated and all you are doing is making it active. If the new system is effectively an always on system, then making that switch will be much more complicated and time consuming as EDs need to be reconfigured.

Be interesting to see how they approach these issues...

[kanordog]

Biggest potential pitfall for me is what they do about twists.

It will be awesome when they take out the only self-healing option many builds have (cocoon) without the annoying scroll swap (heal scroll). That will make solo play impossible for many.
But I will not be surprised, they sell healing potions in the store.

[LittleM]

I'll take a look on release, but chances are high that if I'm not playing my full build at L20 that I'll find a new MMO where the newbie gated levels can be left behind forever, which fortunately means anything but DDO.

This

I hate heroic and racial TRs. I can make it through iconics, as you are not that far away from the full build. But leave the epic system as it is.

[Bunker]

Wouldn't it be great if the Destiny changes make the new Tome of Destiny obsolete. That would be a classic SSG move.

-Bunker

P.S. maybe they will have some forethought.......maybe

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

The devs have made a ton of changes that screw new players over the years, and absolutely refuse to make a few very small common sense changes that would help a ton. A good case in point is that almost all of the premade builds are absolutely terrible. They consist of nothing more than a giant new player trap on the character creation screen. It would take someone an afternoon to fix them, so it's pretty obvious they don't care a lot about new players. Or how about something that gets new players to open up the adventure journal to the entire game doesn't look like a completely random jumble of quests to them?

NEW players usually don't do min-maxing. I assume that NEW players would rather adapt to what they find.

In my opinion, it is rather the POWER GAP that screws new players. Even at the lowest levels, multi-lives characters are SO MUCH overpowered that NEW players are just getting screwed.

Or how about something that gets new players to open up the adventure journal to the entire game doesn't look like a completely random jumble of quests to them?

This is, however, something I can agree with. The quests don't seem well connected - on first sight !

And thanks to Blizzard, people have bcome utterly lazy. Question marks floating over the heads of NPCs. Map markers. That's Blizzar'd decisin descicion carried over into too many modern RPGs like sort of an industry standard.

This was copied so much after the rule of "follow the trail of money" : Blizzard's games were SO MUCH generating buzz and revenue that other games' designers felt kinda FORCED to include Blizzard's style if they wanted to generate revenue, too !

This "industry standard" has made a thing with players. They TRAINED players to look out for floating question marks, exclamation marks etc. - and to look out for map markers.
Modern new players would be utterly helpless in a game WITHOUT them, thanks to this training !

So - in fact the absence of map markers and of floating signs is - in my opinion - actually training players - new players - to become more self-sufficient. Players do not need a guiding hand. Too much of a guiding hand leads into lazyness, imho. There are things like "logic" and "thinking" which are fr better than guiding hands.

We just need to give players the tools to enjoy their playing ! - and better tools, sometimes.


DDO is in fact not for the lazy ones. It requires LOTS of thinking.

And, the quest chains are put together in the MINDS of the people !

One example : The waterworks chain leads into finding a message saying "Seal of Shan-to-kor".
Another example : The Baudry Cartamon chainleads into "Hiding in plain sight", which has a message leading into another chain.
Third example : Chronoscope has 2 NPCs talking about something ... which becomes another chain much later. ( I don't want to spoil anyone. )

The great difficulty for the untrained new players lies with the MENTAL linking of these sparse hints !
Blizzard didn't teach that to players. And so did none of those who adapted Blizzard's design choices.
On the positive side, the "eureka"-effect (German : "Aha-Effekt") is so much bigger, then !


Okay, enough off-topic ...

[Bjond]

NEW players usually don't do min-maxing. I assume that NEW players would rather adapt to what they find.

IMHO, it's the jump-in and "learn as you go" crowd that ends up completely screwed. D&D itself is the problem there. You can't redo your character as you go. You have to live with what you pick and many feats have prerequisite chains. So, there is overwhelming advantage in laying out a character from start to finish.

MMO players aren't used to that; most MMO's permit and encourage learning from play with typically only a couple gross choices locked in; eg. class and perhaps a secondary "prestige" class forked from the base.

Once a player learns that building as you go results in a nearly unplayable character, they'll either punt DDO for requiring too much plan-ahead "work" or they'll knuckle down and layout their characters from the start. And, unless DDO wants to permit full free rebuilds, I don't think that will ever change.

POWER GAP that screws new players. Even at the lowest levels, multi-lives characters are SO MUCH overpowered that NEW players are just getting screwed.

By screwed, I'm assuming you mean left to chase & loot rather than contribute. They certainly are not being harmed even indirectly. XP rate for new is only a bit slower due to navigation and not knowing which quests to do v skip. It's not due to difficulty; as brand new in DDO, I thought Elite was the perfect solo difficulty.

BTW, while I agree that PLs, especially EPLs in Heroic, offer enormous power-ups, I don't think it's the big reason. When I made new characters, I stepped off Korthos into R1 and steamrolled it. It's game knowledge and the same thing happens in any MMO for subsequent characters.

IMHO, it's the enticement to TR down to Heroics that is bad for the game. It doesn't qualify as content for a vet. Mixing people who want to blow through it absolutely as fast as possible with folks eager to flower-sniff a brand new game is begging for trouble. It's why we see newbie posts complaining about "uh, is the game just chase & loot!?"

the absence of map markers and of floating signs is - in my opinion - actually training players - new players - to become more self-sufficient. Players do not need a guiding hand.

I played one MMO (forgot which) that put a glowing path on the ground. It was absolutely fantastic when brand new. You could turn it off, though, and once you leave newbie-land, most seemed to remove it. I recall "can I turn off the path thingie!?" being a very common question.

I remember turning it back on now and then later in game when new zones were added. It was very handy, but having it on while fighting in open world was irksome -- seriously added to the clutter.

The funny thing about that path tool was that it was in a really old game. I think it predated the common use of GPS in cars. At least I don't recall drawing the connection at the time, whereas now it's an instant an automatic comparison.

[AbyssalMage]

You know i was around when people said the EXACT same **** about the enhancement trees you use today... Let them do their thing, I for one am glad i no longer do enhancements the old way. Ever play a druid or artificer and train your dog? That's how EVERYONE did enhancements.

I'm sorry you have "Old Timer Memory" but you looked at the Sorcerer Tree that has been used for the last 5 years? It's a copy/paste and Sorcerers lost there Crit Chance multiplier. Or the fact that Sorcerers were considered one of the weaker classes during that entire time until they actually made Fire Sorc viable and the Vocal Minority gnashed its teeth.

Ok, you forgot about the Sorcerer. How about Wizard? You used to be able to choose SLA's based on the school you specialized in and could mix/match. They replaced that with a Touch, single target, and AoE damage spell. Then put a consolation prize into the core.

How about the main point. When they did the Enhancement revamp the game experienced a major influx of power creep. The "powers that be" quickly increased the difficulty of content through HP inflation and damage. That then led to players needing more AC. That led to an AC revamp. That led to PRR/MRR being created. That led to everything suddenly becoming OP. But lets continue...

The new system will be better overall and once you get use to it you'll notice you're stronger, not weaker.

Yup... "Stronger"
Wait, you said you played during the Enhancement pass and how quickly you forget what that caused. There were "losses and gains" and initially the players thought we gained. But in the end we most definitely "Lost" in that trade. I didn't believe it then either. But we have a nearly a decade of proof. I'm willing to observe the facts and admit when I made a mistake.

Leaving the game alone leads to what we have with the bank. 3 years ago they tried to pagulate the bank (make it like the shared storage.). which would of allowed each character to have over 200 bank slots. now because they listened to doom and gloomists we have been stuck with 60-100 bank slots. because they wanted it "Just leave it alone, its fine the way it is."

I remember parts of those threads. I also remember this being the correct decision. I know storage space is limited but I remember the alternative was a lot worse.

do the math man. right now you have 25 points to put in your tree. if my math is correct. people that have done all their epic past lives and have the tomes should be somewhere around 23 points to spend when they hit 20 add in 4/level your looking at over 50 points to spend in 3 ED trees at 30. And the new system will be robust enough to move forward with the level cap increase. which the current system does not. IE. its not fine. so please don't leave it alone.

The minority (possibly the majority) do not want a level cap increase. "Robust" should be just code for Power Creep. And Power Creep is always paid in full by the developers sticking it to us. Because obviously something has to be OP because the Vocal Minority says it is and the developers gladly oblige.

You are asking me, and many others, to blindly follow a management team whose only guiding principle is "hopefully we will get it right next time." The old Enhancement system was very clunky but it was far from Power Creep and was actually more diverse. We gave that up for aesthetically pleasing, power creep, and less choice. Personally I don't want to make the same mistake twice.