U49 Preview 1: Bow Combat Style Revamp

[Ghlitch]

Just tested the changes on my current build, I end up with about 25% more double shot, 40 more ranged power, and a slower attack speed. This will free up three feats for me since shot on the run will no longer be worth the investment into the required mobility and blinding speed is now utterly pointless to have.

Are you going to be giving out lesser hearts of wood with this patch? I can foresee many people in a similar position of having to trade out a lot of feats.

[FengXian]

Complaints like attack speed? They've said numerous times that they will not significantly increase bow attack speed because fast attack speed is a contributor to lag.

They clearly listen to players, there are a lot of changes that happened to items from the 2nd preview of Dryad and the Demigod loot to live, that were very much in line with what players had asked for in the preview (lots of comments wondering why the bastard sword went away, and now it's back as feytwisted, lots of comments asking for a dwarven axe, got one in feytwisted, lots of comments in preview one also saying that the greataxe wasn't needed due to all the THF weapons already, got changed to a handaxe, a couple comments asking for the greataxe back and now we've got a feytwisted one for that too).
They don't always make changes in accordance with the player's wishes because they don't always think it's healthy for the game's balance, but they clearly do change things based on player input. Looking through a number of updates, you can see some small changes in things that were specifically requested in preview threads.

You can't expect them to always cater to everything the players think should happen, in the way they think it should happen.

The thing is, we're not just talking about some player's personal preference here.

There are long overdue fixes not being addressed (IPS).

There is flawed reasoning behind current changes (MS 1/6th of the times showing severe lack of testing and/or good faith on dev side)

There is blatant disregard to things players are very attached to (iconic weapons)

And a lack of communication on the forums of a test server where players help devs do their work for free.

I could just ignore all of this and play on live, and then suddenly complain about stuff not working with this pass when it goes live, and I would not be in the wrong. All of this complaining is extra stuff on my part in order to help a game I care about, and there are people doing even more than me by testing the actual changes or crunching numbers.

About numbers, those are pretty thorough calculations and while they don't comprehend every single aspect (outright impossible) they are more than enough to raise a red-flag (and pure autoattack DPS is not even nearly the main issue here btw).

I know every company has different policies about devs communicating with players, and some do so even less than SSG, but I also know DDO has its own peculiarities as a game: the huge spaghetti code makes it so that beta testing is more crucial than ever, and some players are simply more knowledgeable about some aspects of the game than some devs. Also, DDO really depends on its veterans more so than other games. Which doesn't mean they should dictate what is going to happen, but when they raise justified concerns backed up by many arguments shared by multiple old timers, they should at the very least be taken seriously.

All it would take is to give us some reasons as to why you're doing stuff the way you're doing it.

Is it all because of a bigger master plan you have faith in despite being aware of current issues with this change? Just say it, it will be somewhat reassuring at least.

[Carpone]

No Lionheart Ring? Actually if I checked 108% before I got that ring, should be higher... I don't see how 1s place could be 8 with insightful 16

Lionheart Ring may have a place in gear now since Haste Boost is meaningful again. But gear tetris is another discussion, and I'm not going to get too deep into that during a preview where I expect changes prior to live. For example, there's no way that 10k Stars will remain intact as-is otherwise it's going to require optimal bow builds to always be monk based. From Coco's comments about diversifying bow builds, I suspect 10k Stars will be changed to work with thrown weapons only. And when that happens, it's going to put bows even further behind throwing dagger.

[Yamani]

Ranged Power - Throwing Dagger
005 Shattered Device: Ranged Power 2pc
010 Crackshot Negotiator 3pc
010 Spines of the Manticore/Wreath of Flame [Rare]
010 Spines of the Manticore/Wreath of Flame [Rare]
005 Random Ranged Power filigree [Rare]
004 Remnant Tome
005 Scion of Ethereal
030 Epic Power x10
025 Wallwatcher
003 Reaper’s Strike I
003 Reaper’s Strike II
003 Reaper’s Strike III
006 Reaper’s Strike IV
006 Reaper’s Strike V
001 Reaper’s Offence V
002 Reaper’s Offence VI
010 Fatesinger Martial Hymn
000 Fury of the Wild
125 Archer’s Focus (25 stacks)
TBD Mythic/Reaper items
—
268 standing ranged power
042 Multitude of Missiles

Ranged Power - Bows
020 Rapid Shot (20 BAB)
005 Shattered Device: Ranged Power 2pc
010 Crackshot Negotiator 3pc
010 Spines of the Manticore/Wreath of Flame [Rare]
010 Spines of the Manticore/Wreath of Flame [Rare]
005 Random Ranged Power filigree [Rare]
004 Remnant Tome
005 Scion of Ethereal
030 Epic Power x10
025 Wallwatcher
003 Reaper’s Strike I
003 Reaper’s Strike II
003 Reaper’s Strike III
006 Reaper’s Strike IV
006 Reaper’s Strike V
001 Reaper’s Offence V
002 Reaper’s Offence VI
010 Fatesinger Martial Hymn
000 Fury of the Wild
006 Shot on the Run
125 Archer’s Focus (25 stacks)
TBD Mythic/Reaper items
—
289 standing ranged power
096 10k Stars

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Fury of the wild gives +1 ranged power per core.

Also Improved Archers focus now grants +10 passive ranged power as well.

And as a side note: manyshot adds 10 attacks per minute (5 uses, 2 additional attacks that dont calc doubleshot.)

[Tsutti]

there's no way that 10k Stars will remain intact as-is otherwise it's going to require optimal bow builds to always be monk based. From Coco's comments about diversifying bow builds, I suspect 10k Stars will be changed to work with thrown weapons only. And when that happens, it's going to put bows even further behind throwing dagger.

So far it sounds like it will initially, but I agree that it seems impossible for it to stay the same for long.

[Steelstar]

The thing is, we're not just talking about some player's personal preference here.

There are long overdue fixes not being addressed (IPS).

There is flawed reasoning behind current changes (MS 1/6th of the times showing severe lack of testing and/or good faith on dev side)

There is blatant disregard to things players are very attached to (iconic weapons)

And a lack of communication on the forums of a test server where players help devs do their work for free.

I could just ignore all of this and play on live, and then suddenly complain about stuff not working with this pass when it goes live, and I would not be in the wrong. All of this complaining is extra stuff on my part in order to help a game I care about, and there are people doing even more than me by testing the actual changes or crunching numbers.

About numbers, those are pretty thorough calculations and while they don't comprehend every single aspect (outright impossible) they are more than enough to raise a red-flag (and pure autoattack DPS is not even nearly the main issue here btw).

I know every company has different policies about devs communicating with players, and some do so even less than SSG, but I also know DDO has its own peculiarities as a game: the huge spaghetti code makes it so that beta testing is more crucial than ever, and some players are simply more knowledgeable about some aspects of the game than some devs. Also, DDO really depends on its veterans more so than other games. Which doesn't mean they should dictate what is going to happen, but when they raise justified concerns backed up by many arguments shared by multiple old timers, they should at the very least be taken seriously.

A big part of taking things seriously means taking the time to look at the data being provided and analyze it.

In the 25 hours Lamannia's been up, I've spent 7 hours exclusively on communicating with players, 5 hours fixing bugs, and 5 hours analyzing play data numbers. The other 8 hours was sleeping.

We take communication, balance, and player feedback very seriously; if we didn't, the bow pass would not have happened at all. That will not always translate into the specific changes any one individual wants to see; the game is bigger than that.

[Epicsoul]

This means that Feywild bosses with 225%+ fort will negate a lot more damage for the bow users than throwers, and even Sharn's non-construct red-named and their 150% will throw archers off the curve.

Where does the 225% number come from? If true, yes, bows fall way behind on mobs like that.

[FengXian]

A big part of taking things seriously means taking the time to look at the data being provided and analyze it.

In the 25 hours Lamannia's been up, I've spent 7 hours exclusively on communicating with players, 5 hours fixing bugs, and 5 hours analyzing play data numbers. The other 8 hours was sleeping.

Fair enough, I'm sorry for being impatient and at times forgetting it's a small company after all, and people able to look after forums are in fact in the low single digits (I suppose). I guess it's actually just you atm and forums aren't even the only thing you have to deal with so yeah, sorry.

We take communication, balance, and player feedback very seriously; if we didn't, the bow pass would not have happened at all. That will not always translate into the specific changes any one individual wants to see; the game is bigger than that.

This is less fair though. We are no talking about changes individuals care about, our complaints over and above take the bigger picture into consideration, as far as possible.

IPS was a big part of this. It may be very hard to fix and you just couldn't do it atm, fine, understandable.

What you said about Manyshot proved you either are not aware of how it plays in the actual game or aren't being honest about it. Yes I realize it hugely limits your freedom in working with new bow stuff. At the same time it's what makes bow unique atm.
How is this uniqueness going to be preserved, if at all? This is probably the biggest question atm, yet to be answered. Currently you've just turned MS into a repeater shot combined with sniper shot and added some numbers to bow dps, that's a big step AWAY from uniqueness.

Lastly the iconic rare bows being nerfed. Not gonna change, ok, but again why? Is it because they would be too OP otherwise? Seems extremely unlikely you would believe that. Is it because they also limit your design space for future bows in those level ranges? More understandable but given what's on the scales you could at least make it a non-retroactive nerf, or at the very least talk more about it.

I have found communication so far to be pretty dismissive, if I may. If that's due to the sheer amount of work you have to do, I can certainly wait. But it's very important that we get those answers.

tl;dr: Bow uniqueness: yes, no, how? really trying to make it as simple as possible here.

[Carpone]

Fury of the wild gives +1 ranged power per core.

Also Improved Archers focus now grants +10 passive ranged power as well.

Thank you. Calculations have been updated accordingly.

[Xgya]

Where does the 225% number come from? If true, yes, bows fall way behind on mobs like that.

Tested using 123% fort bypass from a safe spot on r10 with absolutely no crits against the boss wraith in the Cogs. (you can have an angle to the wraith from the pipes above where the wraith thinks it has LoS to you, but its rays hit the pipe, while your own attacks still reach it)

[Gloomfall]

WOW. This is not meant in a good way.

You just confirmed my fears.

You didn't read ANY of the complaints of your bow-using player-base. Period. Since development began on this pass (and the work is already done), whatever valid complaints we, the bow-using player base, have, mean nothing. Everything in the OPs is going through. Period.

You flat out refuse to listen to your players.

You are going to release Horizon Walker as the FIX to bows, because these changes DON'T fix them. And that was your PLAN the whole time. Why not just release Horizon Walker NOW? The work is already done. You just delayed releasing it to make it look like you listened. But you really didn't.

Maybe then, we can see EXACTLY what your EXTREMELY myopic vision TRULY is regarding this playstyle.

Just take your ball already and go home. You certainly don't want us playing with it.

I think one of the main things that they're trying to address is the fact that their "bow using playerbase" is a very small subset of people looking for a very specific playstyle that bows are capable of delivering right now. What they're wanting to do is make it more appealing to the rest of the players so that it's more likely to get used and be a viable form of combat that fits the standard expectations of players coming into the game.

My issue with it is that the numbers needs to be adjusted so that it's more viable and competitive, and leaves people feeling like it's fun to play with.

They also should seriously consider tweaking Crossbows as well as Bows, at least to apply Dex to Damage. Their argument that the crit profile doesn't allow for it, because it's more favorable for crossbows is just ridiculous. Considering the fact that for 'big numbers' people tend to try to get the highest crit multiplier on a 19-20 that they're capable of getting. Bows do that pretty well.

I get where you're coming from though. Changes are definitely difficult for people in general. Especially when they liked a particular aspect of something that's going away.

[salmag]

A big part of taking things seriously means taking the time to look at the data being provided and analyze it.

In the 25 hours Lamannia's been up, I've spent 7 hours exclusively on communicating with players, 5 hours fixing bugs, and 5 hours analyzing play data numbers. The other 8 hours was sleeping.

THANK YOU FOR THAT.

We take communication, balance, and player feedback very seriously; if we didn't, the bow pass would not have happened at all. That will not always translate into the specific changes any one individual wants to see; the game is bigger than that.

This is what's so puzzling, because a lot of your changes are, well, "puzzling."

We all want a better game. Not saying you don't take "communication, balance and player feedback seriously"; but you do dismiss it quite often. And once the work is put in; you devs are done for the most part; ideas are finished, except for a few tweaks here and there. That's been the history since before MOTU.
A lot of the changes offered in other threads, as well as this one, are more than one individual wanting. It's the dismissal of some them without even a consideration that's the problem.

Please don't take this as a personal attack. It is not. I appreciate all you do; I may not agree with it; but I appreciate it.

Just release Horizon Walker now, so we can see what you truly envision for bows.

[Xezom]

You'll also see a more diverse array of ways to build Bow builds in Epic later this year when Horizon Walker arrives and the Epic Destiny revamp is finished.

I'm not going to speak for anyone but myself (although I know there are many who feel the same way). Personally, I do not like how that sounds when being listed in a style revamp. This makes it sound like this revamp is a precursor to the Horizon Walker/Epic Destiny sales pitch. Don't get me wrong, I love the universals (purchased all of them so far). They're great for filling holes or throwing spare points into, but the way this is phrased makes it sound like the Horizon Walker is being designed to fill the gaps that the revamp is leaving. That's not a very comforting feeling.

I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it. I really don't like when revamps/balance/changes are made with the expectation that something later on down the road will make them truly viable/interesting/unique. It starts making it feel like changes are being made in preparation for a sales pitch, and starts making players gun shy for any future "revamps" lest they end up removing a well played/liked build style (in this case burst archers) in favor of a more generic experience.

When I first heard plans for the bow revamp I was pretty excited for it because of what I was expecting to occur. To be honest, when a bow revamp was announced I expected bows themselves to get a TLC pass (in addition to the much needed system overhaul). So to that end, I'm pretty disappointed with this revamp. I was hoping that the revamp itself would bring in a more diverse ways to build bow characters, not having to rely on a (paid) universal tree to do so at a later time. From this lamannia preview, this revamp has taken bows from their niche of burst weapon users to pretty vanilla sustained DPS no matter which bow build you go with. The revamp didn't add diversity as far as the feel of bow builds, rather it standardized and made them all feel relatively the same with no real defining points between them, barring perhaps the AA (which has always been popular due to its interesting mechanics that set it apart from the standard hold right mouse/auto-attack bow/ranged/thrower builds). One of the major misses for me on this pass is that bows didn't get any love themselves. In fact some of the better ones are getting directly nerfed (albeit their numbers will be the same after all the changes are factored in).

As my running partner and I were discussing today, when you take a style out (even one that we know has been a balance nightmare for a long time), you need to add something just as interesting to fill the void left by it's removal. Passives do not do it, and the reworked many shot is far from comparable in terms of satisfaction of use.

There's nothing in this revamp that entices me to make a new archer or try a different bow build. Bows still lack a unique identity even after the revamp (and I'd go so far as to argue that the main builds are actually losing their identity). I, as I know others as well, had higher hopes for a Bow revamp, since interesting bow characters are an integral part of almost every fantasy RPG. Update: according to devs on the dev event on lamannia, the update will be some time MID hardcore league not at the start. Time frame is a little less strict. Nevertheless, here's my feedback and suggestions:


My suggestion:

There was/is a lot of potential to make bow interesting weapons with different properties not found on other gear. The Tortured Livewood is a great example of a basic but potentially interesting bow that's been long left in the dust. Would be a great bow for elemental DPS AA if the numbers were better and offered more than just a mediocre ability. Amping up interesting bows and/or adding other bows to support different styles of builds (perhaps one that allows Ki generation while wielding, better support for hard CC-DC AA's via their bows, Healing shot bows that heal allies near a struck enemy every once in a while for silver flame archers, etc.). There's a lot of unexplored space that could bring color to existing and potential bow builds via interesting and unique bow options, rather than bows simply being just another reskinned version of every other weapon in the game.

Sharpen the identity of the listed existing builds to compensate for the loss of burst identity that was shared amongst most of the current bow builds, as well as to promote diverse feels between bow characters. Yes, I know that it was stated that this pass isn't being used to shift their strengths or focuses. I'm well aware of that, but without sharpening the identity of the existing builds, while also doing away with the existing niche/identity of current builds (burst), you leave bows feeling like a generic style which is not where you want something to land after a total revamp. Sorta like my suggestions for the bows themselves, the same could be said/done for the trees/builds. Ki generation/ranged attacks for monks, Healing shots for Silver flame archers, better DPS options for fighters, further supplemental CC for AA (such as one that effects undead), better focus on mixing range and melee for deepwood (or more focus on the stalker part by sharpening their sneak attack ranger identity). There's a lot of potential here as well and you don't have to add a ton of options, but giving each one something that makes them feel unique from each other would go a really long way. As it is, the only one that really feels much different than the others, to me at least, is the CC-AA. All of the rest are very much the same with the only difference in play style really being the flavor text of the abilities.



On a side, but related, note:

Not to pass judgement on a system that is not yet finished or announced fully yet, but this bow style revamp does not inspire a lot of confidence in the upcoming epic destiny revamp, which is stated to have a goal of diversifying destiny usage, which is what many hoped that the bow revamp would do for bows or bring some other unique play styles.

As always, I never want it to come off sounding like attacking, as most of the vets of DDO know that the devs bust their butts to get changes out as well as communicate with the community directly.

TL;DR is that this bow revamp leaves much to be desired and doesn't breathe life into a failing system via uniqueness, but rather standardizes it into mediocrity. We, as the players, know that SSG can and does do better work than this revamp in it's current state, and from what I'm seeing most of the comments, many are simply frustrated with this revemp falling short of our usual expectations for a system overhaul and/or fearing that the true overhaul is going to be a pay wall fix via a universal later on. Both being valid reasons for concern.

[Carpone]

Just release Horizon Walker now, so we can see what you truly envision for bows.

Unless Horizon Walker provides the bow equivalent of Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise, it isn't going to solve the bow woes present in this preview.

[Epicsoul]

Just release Horizon Walker now, so we can see what you truly envision for bows.

HW shouldn't be the difference between bows being viable and bows underperforming. Should be possible to get bows in a decent place outside of HW.

[salmag]

I think one of the main things that they're trying to address is the fact that their "bow using playerbase" is a very small subset of people looking for a very specific playstyle that bows are capable of delivering right now. What they're wanting to do is make it more appealing to the rest of the players so that it's more likely to get used and be a viable form of combat that fits the standard expectations of players coming into the game.

My issue with it is that the numbers needs to be adjusted so that it's more viable and competitive, and leaves people feeling like it's fun to play with.

They also should seriously consider tweaking Crossbows as well as Bows, at least to apply Dex to Damage. Their argument that the crit profile doesn't allow for it, because it's more favorable for crossbows is just ridiculous. Considering the fact that for 'big numbers' people tend to try to get the highest crit multiplier on a 19-20 that they're capable of getting. Bows do that pretty well.

I get where you're coming from though. Changes are definitely difficult for people in general. Especially when they liked a particular aspect of something that's going away.

I get what you're saying and I agree with you. They should look at crossbows too. However, we don't want all range weapons to have the exact same crit profile and base damage. Pretty soon they'll be looking like the recent spell pass (all 1d6).

A differentiating factor would have been making distance relevant.

I would say the "bow using player base" is very small and part of the reason for that is because of some of the decisions the devs made in the past.

[Drwaz99]

I'm not going to speak for anyone but myself (although I know there are many who feel the same way). Personally, I do not like how that sounds when being listed in a style revamp. This makes it sound like this revamp is a precursor to the Horizon Walker/Epic Destiny sales pitch. Don't get me wrong, I love the universals (purchased all of them so far). They're great for filling holes or throwing spare points into, but the way this is phrased makes it sound like the Horizon Walker is being designed to fill the gaps that the revamp is leaving. That's not a very comforting feeling.

This is my fear, too. SSG/Turbine has a LOOONG history of making uncomfortable changes and them selling the good parts they cut back on <for "balance" reasons> back to us at a later date. This feels exactly like that.

[Madja]

I'm not really qualified to talk about DPS, so I will leave that to those more knowledgeable.

Here are my thoughts and ideas about bows, though:

• The reliance on BAB seems like it might pigeonhole people into specific builds that have access to Tensers and the like.
• The focus on consistent damage instead of burst seems like a big nerf to hybrid builds that used to melee in-between bursts.
• I personally like the change to manyshot as I'm not a fan of cooldowns, but people bring up some valid points.
• I think monks really need to be able to generate Ki with ranged weapons now that the hybrid still is less viable.
• The increased focus on crits makes me worried that it will feel very random to play.
• I feel like bow strength could use a little buff to make up for the fact that dex will now be the go-to stat.
• Would it be possible to change where the arrow is shot from on your character? Currently shorter races are much better for ranged as their shots aren't fired at a downward angle.
• The crit change on the heroic bows seems odd as, firstly, they are too low level to benefit from a level 21 feat and, secondly, they aren't getting the crit back as the buff to Combat Archery is for all bows meaning that the nerfed bows will be worse of compared to other bows after the change. The stats on some of those bows were balanced around the expanded threat, with that gone they won't be as useful anymore.
• It would be great if there could be a difference in how short bows and longbows play.
• I wonder if it would be possible to change some things in the way arrows work as a way to buff bows without buffing other ranged types? Maybe effects could stack?

Lastly... I picked Unwavering Ardency from the Anniversary token in anticipation of the bow pass and seeing it get a big nerf like this really hurts. Is there any way to exchange it?

[salmag]

Unless Horizon Walker provides the bow equivalent of Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise, it isn't going to solve the bow woes present in this preview.

I agree, but only the Devs truly know what HW will provide.

HW shouldn't be the difference between bows being viable and bows underperforming. Should be possible to get bows in a decent place outside of HW.

Again I wholeheartedly agree. But, and I've said this before, HW will be the "fix" for bows that the devs planned. And I said this, way back, when the idea of a Universal Bow tree was announced for bows. I advocated for fixing bows, period; not adding a new tree.

Will HW fix bows? Probably not, but the work has been done already. So let's just see what the devs want for bows.

[salmag]

I'm not going to speak for anyone but myself (although I know there are many who feel the same way). Personally, I do not like how that sounds when being listed in a style revamp. This makes it sound like this revamp is a precursor to the Horizon Walker/Epic Destiny sales pitch. Don't get me wrong, I love the universals (purchased all of them so far). They're great for filling holes or throwing spare points into, but the way this is phrased makes it sound like the Horizon Walker is being designed to fill the gaps that the revamp is leaving. That's not a very comforting feeling.

This is my fear, too. SSG/Turbine has a LOOONG history of making uncomfortable changes and them selling the good parts they cut back on <for "balance" reasons> back to us at a later date. This feels exactly like that.

Well said.