Thrower Build

[Galinar]

I have been playing with the idea of creating a Thrower. I see a number of Thrower toons that are 11 Rogue, 6 Ranger, and 3 Bard. I get the 6 Ranger for tier 5 deep woods Stalker, and 3 Bard for Swashbuckler, and Rogue for sneak attack. I am wondering what the enhancement splits are for this build. And Why is this a better Thrower than an Alchemist (vile chemist) with Int for almost all abilities.

[unbongwah]

Why is this a better Thrower than an Alchemist (vile chemist) with Int for almost all abilities.

I presume you mean "why rogue 11 instead of Alchemist 11?" and the short-ish version is: sneak attacks scale off Ranged Power; Vile Chemist's poison damage scales off Spellpower. So if you focus your thrower build on SAs from rogue + DWS enhancements, you only need RP gear; if you go the VC route, you need RP and Poison SP gear. In other words, it simplifies your gear set if you only have sneak attacks. The downside is you need to be within Point Blank Shot (PBS) range to get ranged sneak attacks and also need to make your target vulnerable; but between Sniper Shot and Deception gear, that shouldn't be too hard.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Sneak_attack

That said, the rog 11 / rgr 6 / bard 3 builds are focused solely on ranged DPS. They are other benefits from going with Alchemist as your primary class than just poison damage like self-buffs, Curatives, etc. So part of picking the right build for yourself is figuring out what mix of features you want.

[slarden]

There are many variations with enhancements - either vistani knife fighter tier 5+ capstone or deepwood stalker tier 5. I tested both and found Vistani a bit better but there might be an attack sequence or bug I don't know about making deepwood stalker better.

I was given someone else's build as a starting point and made a bunch of mods to it. I liked the gearing options I gained by adding orb but going with nothing in off-hand might give you once extra missle in your big attack - in my case it didn't. Most people go with nothing in off-hand for the extra 10% doubleshot.

Overall really like it. Celerity s/be in my enhancements - not sure what change was made to fit it in or if it was from bonus ap.

This is what I am using - sorry for the copy/paste slop:

ENHANCEMENTS
Vistani Knife Fighter (41)
Cores

• Knife Expertise
• Knife Juggler
• Quick Reflexes
• One With The Blades
• Vistani Fortune
• Blade Master

Tier 1

• Vistani Knife Training I
• Undead Hunter
• Mist Stalker I

Tier 2

• Vistani Knife Training II
• Bleeding Cuts
• Mist Stalker II
• Haste Boost x3

Tier 3

• Vistani Knife Training III
• Mist Stalker III
• Deadly Blades
• Dexterity

Tier 4

• Vistani Knife Training IV
• Mist Stalker IV
• Dexterity

Tier 5

• Vistani Knife Training V
• Whirling Blades
• Mist Stalker V
• Vendetta

Deepwood Stalker (13)
Cores

• Far Shot
• Sneak Attack
• Sniper Shot

Tier 1

• Stealthy x3
• Increased Empathy x1

Tier 2

• Faster Sneaking x3
• Improved Weapon Finesse

Tier 3

• Dexterity

Swashbuckler (13)
Cores

• Confidence
• Swashbuckling

Tier 1

• On Your Toes x1
• Blow By Blow x3

Tier 2

• Action Boost Doubleshot x 3

Tier 3

• Dexterity

Assassin (13)
Cores

• Knife in the Darkness
• Dagger in the Back
• Assassin’s Trick

Tier 1

• Toxin Affinity x1
• Sneak Attack Training 1
• Stealthy x3

Tier 2

• Sneak Attack Training II

Tier 3

• Sneak Attack Training III

If you have more than 80 AP put the rest into halfling: Cores, Sneak Attack Line, Healing Dragonmark Line

GEAR

Goggles	The Masque	Strength of Purpose Insightful Deadly 7 Soundproof Globe of True Imperial Blood augment Strange Tidings Augment (1 of 3)
Helm	Helm of the Final Watcher	Seeker 21 Quality Deadly 5 Accuracy 34 Insightful Doubleshot 7 Essence of Ultimatum - Petrification Immunity Topaz of Fear Immunity
Neck	Rosethorn Necklace	Thorn of the Rose Deception 19 Bluff 22 Sapphire of Good Luck +2 Sapphire of Armored Agility +2 Draconic Soul Gem Filigree (all the rare version) Crackshot Negotiator Ranged Power Spines of the Manticore/The Wreath of Flame Ranged Power Spines of the Manticore Ranged Power
Trinket	Legendary Five Rings	Sheltering 45 Deadly 14 Tendon Slice Quality Dexterity 4 Strange Tidings Augment (2 of 3)
Cloak	Legendary Cloak of Spring	Electricity Absorb 50% Dexterity 21 Insightful Dexterity 10 Parrying 10 Diamond of Wisdom 12
Belt	Direwolf Belt	Deception 17 Insightful Seeker 10 Shield Bonus 21 Diamond of Insightful Wisdom 5
Ring 1	Circle of Malevolence	Resistance 14 Vitality 60 Insightful Sheltering 23 Diamond of Festive Dexterity 2 Strange Tidings Augment (3 of 3)
Gloves	Legendary Wildwood Gauntlets	Lesser Displacement Dodge 21 Natural Armor Bonus 21 Distant Diversion 33 Topaz of Deathblock
Boots	Legendary Deepsnow Boots	Insightful Constitution 10 Quality Constitution 5 Freedom of Movement Fortitude Save 17 Topaz of Feather Falling
Ring 2	Legendary Nocturne Ring	True Seeing Sapphire of Greater Heroism
Bracers	Legendary Vinelash Bracers	Improved Deception Quality Deception 4 Doubleshot 13 Insightful Dodge 10 Diamond of Insightful Intelligence 5 (for trapping)
Armor	Legendary Wildwood Vest	Fortification 214 Physical Sheltering 54 Healing Amp 85 False Life 81 Essence of the Epic Litany of the Dead augment
Weapon	Wide Open Sky	Aligned Soul Tear (debuff) Holy 10 Coruscating 10 Deconstructor augment Ruby of the Vampire Slayer augment Filigree (all the rare version) Treachery Dexterity +1 Treachery/Twilight Coak Dexterity +2 Deadly Rain: Ranged Power Deadly Rain: Critical Confirmation The Wreath of Flame: Ranged Power Crackshot Negotiator Ranged Power Crackshot Negotiator Attack and Damage Spines of the Manticore Ranged Power Spines of the Manticore/ Wreath of Flame Ranged Power
Off-hand	The Heart of the Prince Orb	85 Healing Amp Constitution 21 Ghostly Ruby of Devotion 139
Quiver		Blunted ammunition

Note: Same filigree in different items currently stacks and counts for set bonus. It’s uncertain if this is working as intended and may change in the future requiring using a toolkit to remove and replace filigree

Also, the strange tidings augments must go in non-set items to function properly without overwriting other set bonuses so location of those augments is very important.

You should also have a swap weapon (referred to as “Mists Weapon” going forward) with 4 Through the Mists Filigree. This with uncanny dodge will give you a bonus to ranged power.

Ideally I would also have a 2nd weapon with shattered device filigree for boss debuffing - I don’t currently have it - it’s a work in process.

I use cannith crafted swap trinkets for trapping and Int (one for search and one for disable)

Set Bonuses

Legendary Wallwatch	+3 Sneak Attack Die 25% Artifact bonus to Fortification Bypass 20% Artifact Bonus to Doubleshot 20 Artifact Bonus to Ranged Power
Eminence of Spring	10% Missile Deflection 15% Artifact Bonus to Helpless Damage
Eminence of Winter	25 Artifact Bonus to PRR 15 Artifact Bonus to Healing Amp 20% Artifact bonus to Hit Points
Treachery	+5 Ranged Power
Deadly Rain	+5 Ranged Power
The Wreath of Flame	5% Fire Absorb Permanent Fire Shield
Crackshot Negotiator	+10 Diplomacy +15 Ranged Power
Spines of the Manticore	+2 Damage +3% Missile Deflection +10 Ranged Power
3 piece Strange Tidings augment	+4 Artifact Dexterity

Big Attack Sequence (setup on hotbar)

• Swap to Mists Weapon
• Click Uncanny Dodge
• Swap back to main weapon
• Assassin’s Trick on Boss (reduce Fort and lose immunity to sneak damage)
• Click Multitude of Missles
• Click Doubleshot Action Boost
• Click on Vendetta
• Click Hunt’s End
• Click Sniper Shot (or Blow By Blow in raid to avoid changing aggro)

Mini-Attack Sequence

• Click on Multitude of Missles
• Click on Hunt’s End
• Click on Sniper Shot

[zyp]

Thank you so much for your detailed layout Slarden!

I want to try a rogue/ranger thrower like the one you've lain out but I'm wondering what the primary benefit is from the 3 bard levels.

Vistani gives the same competence bonus to critical multiplier and range as SB when it comes to throwing daggers. It seems like it might be better to just do some more rogue levels for another sneak attack die, another special feat and a little more BAB.

Is there something else there?

[unbongwah]

Vistani gives the same competence bonus to critical multiplier and range as SB when it comes to throwing daggers. It seems like it might be better to just do some more rogue levels for another sneak attack die, another special feat and a little more BAB.

Swashbuckling is actually +1 crit range over VKF bonus and you can take it a lot sooner. But the big incentive is the extra Doubleshot from Dashing Scoundrel and the DS action boost.

[Arkat]

Swashbuckling is actually +1 crit range over VKF bonus and you can take it a lot sooner. But the big incentive is the extra Doubleshot from Dashing Scoundrel and the DS action boost.

Yes

[slarden]

Swashbuckling is actually +1 crit range over VKF bonus and you can take it a lot sooner. But the big incentive is the extra Doubleshot from Dashing Scoundrel and the DS action boost.

Yes those are both important. The crit range is beneficial all the time and the doubleshot action boost is part of the big attack sequence for max burst dps.

I will also add that blow by blow in swashbuckler is very important for raiding. Sniper shot resets aggro and can cause the boss to turn and kill melees when he turns around (this is meant to be a warning and not a tip on how to kill your teammates!). However, if you substitute blow-by-blow in place of your sniper shot for your big attack in raids (referring to bosses here) the dps will be a bit lower unfortunately but it's better for the party in general vs. 2 melees biting the dust and being on a timer.

[zyp]

Yes those are both important. The crit range is beneficial all the time and the doubleshot action boost is part of the big attack sequence for max burst dps.

I will also add that blow by blow in swashbuckler is very important for raiding. Sniper shot resets aggro and can cause the boss to turn and kill melees when he turns around (this is meant to be a warning and not a tip on how to kill your teammates!). However, if you substitute blow-by-blow in place of your sniper shot for your big attack in raids (referring to bosses here) the dps will be a bit lower unfortunately but it's better for the party in general vs. 2 melees biting the dust and being on a timer.

I am so glad I asked! Thank you for your responses!

[Palor0]

I was curious about this idea as well, this thread was helpful.

[Tagedieb]

I was curious about this idea as well, this thread was helpful.

If i understood it the right way Doublesshot now just enhances dmg. similiar to Ranged Power post U49.

> Does that mean i can treat Doublesshot attack Boost and Attack Power Boost equaly and i could interchange the doublestrike Boost of the posted throwing Build with the attack Power Boost of Assassin without much loss?

[Galinar]

I know it has been a while since this thread had action. Thanks for the write-up Slarden! I am wondering how Horizen Walker and U51 may have changed things on this build.

[Carpone]

Horizon Walker has made throwers obsolete. If you want ranged, bows are the highest damage option. I just did the math on a 14 Monk/6 Ranger shuri, and it falls behind bows. Considering thrown daggers are -81% dshot less than shuri, they are even further behind.

[slarden]

I know it has been a while since this thread had action. Thanks for the write-up Slarden! I am wondering how Horizen Walker and U51 may have changed things on this build.

Throwing DPS has been behind bows since they made the change to martial dps to reduce lag and that gap widened with bow and horizon walker changes . Even some of the people that argued throwing was stronger at the time are now acknowledging the truth.

I wouldn't bother with a thrower right now - it's weaker at every level from 1-30. My take-down times on a thrower are worse than it even shows on paper.

I didn't bother posting my bow setup because it's too similar to a few other builds I saw the forum as most of the decisions are fairly obvious other than class split which will depend heavily on playstyle preferences.

[Deathmaster35]

Throwing DPS has been behind bows since they made the change to martial dps to reduce lag and that gap widened with bow and horizon walker changes . Even some of the people that argued throwing was stronger at the time are now acknowledging the truth.

The experience I had with a thrower about a month ago is that the attack speed for them has some bugs in it. Taking the 30% throwing speed enhancement from the destiny tree had no noticible effect on the speed of attacks. Holding down the button attacks considerable slower than rapidly clicking the button as well. I have a feeling when they made the attack speed changes to limit ranged attack speeds they broke throwing. inquisitives shoot dual crossbows faster than throwers can throw.. I know the entire concept of the inquisitive splitting a single crossbow into two that they can somehow hold the second without having a free hand even, all while reloading and shooting both faster than someone with a single crossbow can do the same is pretty stupid on its own... but still

[Argulus]

I have gone through this thread (and a BUNCH of other ones). I keep seeing references to coming across "the" 11 rogue/6 ranger/3 bard build, but have been unable to find the build information. Plenty of references to the order not being a big deal, but a list of the feats that should be taken. I appreciate all of that information, but am a little new to DDO. I also know that it is not a great build, but have already gotten the Visanti Enh Tree.
Soooooo . . . would REALLY appreciate it if someone could put together a leveling guide. I keep coming across references that have back and forth comments, such as taking SWF prior to getting TWF at Ranger 2. Some reference to it benefitting part of the Bard enhancements. This is why I am hoping for some help.

Would like to go Drow (not Halfling, though I understand why that is suggested). Weapon suggestions at level ranges would be appreciated.

[AshtonEsson]

It's just incredible what analysis you have provided, thank you very much. I just wanted to try a new hero. I think now my choice is easier.

[MichelleOtter]

Thank you very much for the detailed analysis, I was at the crossroads of choosing between the heroes.