U48.4 Preview 2: Balance Changes: Spells

[HuneyMunster]

Where are you getting these numbers from?

Fire bolt at MCL of 10*(1d6+2) would be 30 - 80, not 30-120
Numbus at MCL 15*(1d6) would be 15-90, not 15-225

The average is pretty similar 55 for wiz/sorc and 52.5 for FvS. I can't really see what you are saying is wrong, but your math certainly is.

Edit I see where the +15 MCL comes from.

I was hungover when doing the math. That probably why I fluffed it.

I also didn't compare Master of Light and Master of Alignment with Master of Fire that give additional +10 Max Caster Levels where some of the Divine spells have higher dice than Fireball and Scorch. Some of the extra max caster levels will most probably be unachievable to reach on Favored Soul with the feats and enhancements.

I have no issue with Divine spells getting a much needed buff, just concerned about balance as Sorcerer has no natural self healing when compared to Divines, Druids, Artificers, Alchemists and Pale Masters. If Savant isn't the top tier caster dps then what are they supposed to be? The only alternative is Eldritch Knight outside of Universal trees. With the exception of Alchemist that get evasion all others have medium to heavy armor proficiency. It seems like EK has caused issues due to 22+ points into EK for medium armor.

I do not and have never played a fire Savant. I was also an Air Savant on my Sorcerer. I was skeptical of Feydark Illusionist at first, but now like the tree. So will end up with no points in Savant and spend them in Illusionist as well as EK and other trees to max DC caster.

Edit: I should also mention that Favored Soul's also get higher DC's than Savant. Sorcerer get +2 Cha on Capstone and +1 Evocation tier 5. Favored Soul gets +4 Cha or Wis and +2 DC's Capstone, +1 DC's 5th core, and +1 DC's when below 60% hp as well as +1 Evocation tier 5. The Sacred bonus to DC's below 60% is redundant if they have Gloryborne Gloves unless it stacks. Though, Sorcerer has not had a pass yet and no new information on when this will be done outside of a post by Steelstar one and a half years ago.

[slarden]

I was responding to earlier, insinuating that this game has no competitive ranking amongst players is disturbingly wrong. You may not care, you may think others don't care, and that's perfectly fine but the dedicated portion of this game that plays it religiously and pushes themselves and their guilds to be better play in some realm of competition and have done it for years.

To have a real competition people would be agreeing to compete and the closest we have to that is hardcore where there are objective measures, but even there most people are opting out of the competition aspect and instead trying to reach a specific milestone. Competing and comparing yourself to a population that doesn't care and isn't competing is kind of funny when you think about it.

I played magic competitively for years - this is not a competitive game.

[boredGamer]

Anyone playing this game from Normal to Elite difficulty and who is content to flower sniff and roleplay or even just casually play is perfectly entitled to do as they please. They are not ever going to be affected by any balancing done on behalf of the population who are the elitists playing to become better by single numbers and push content.

Lol - I play for fun, I was playing in R8 last night.

I try to get better personal skills, as a character, and as a group I'm playing with. I try to push whatever content those I'm playing with can push.

Playing for fun doesn't always mean you are flower sniffing, it just doesn't mean you measure your e-peen with vague arbitrary goals you think everyone cares about. It means you play for fun, for your group. Try it sometime, you might like it!

[MrChipinator]

To have a real competition people would be agreeing to compete and the closest we have to that is hardcore where there are objective measures, but even there most people are opting out of the competition aspect and instead trying to reach a specific milestone. Competing and comparing yourself to a population that doesn't care and isn't competing is kind of funny when you think about it.

I played magic competitively for years - this is not a competitive game.

No, this is not a competitive game, but this game does have competition within it. There's a nuance there, but if racing for worlds first, pushing reaper difficulty, speedrunning, min/maxing characters and grinding for uber completionist don't count as competitive then we're being disingenuous with our definitions.

The endgame population is competing within themselves, they don't care about going and shoving their achievements in the faces of random people, they push content to feel satisfied within themselves, that their characters, cunning, skill, and dedication as players enabled them complete whatever difficulty is placed before them.

Lol - I play for fun, I was playing in R8 last night.

I try to get better personal skills, as a character, and as a group I'm playing with. I try to push whatever content those I'm playing with can push.

Playing for fun doesn't always mean you are flower sniffing, it just doesn't mean you measure your e-peen with vague arbitrary goals you think everyone cares about. It means you play for fun, for your group. Try it sometime, you might like it!

You hiding behind the incredibly arbitrary definition of fun is really odd.

If the entire collection of endgame players all agree that pushing to be the best at X, Y, or Z is enjoyable and totally validating for playing DDO, then they're having fun in their competition between each other.

I don't take my R+ raid completions and shove it down random players throats, nor do I bother anyone with rattling off any achievements.

"It means you play for fun, for your group"

If you can't understand the hilarious open ended irony of this comment then do me a favor and stop replying.

[boredGamer]

If the entire collection of endgame players all agree that pushing to be the best at X, Y, or Z is enjoyable and totally validating for playing DDO, then they're having fun in their competition between each other.
.

Let me guess, your definition of "endgame player" is only one that is competing with other endgame players? Circular definition of your own group ? But of course you don't tell anyone about your achievements, nor discount other players not in this group, so you're not in this group yourself?

And all other players, that are playing for "vague fun" - at no matter what difficulty or content - they are not "end game players" ?

I never said the group competing with each other isn't having fun, I'm saying there are different ways to have fun, and not everyone needs to "compete" in an MMO. If I wanted that I'd go back to an RTS or FPS.

Your psychopathy is on full display, not understanding people can have fun without competition to other players. Holy hell.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Your psychopathy is on full display, not understanding people can have fun without competition to other players. Holy hell.

You are quite good at insulting others.

I have read during the recent few weeks a book on how men behhave and whjy - the result was that men are in constant competition with their peers and try everything to show themselves and others that they are "manly". By expressing power, for example.

I usually don't have competition with others when I do solo play - and I'm still far away from end game. Within solo play, there is only me and "the environment".

Yet still - if I'd post about my achievements, I'd signal to others : I have reached that and that. Means : I'm powerful. Weaklings don't get into level 20 or so.

In my opinion, there is even competition when we don't nottice it anymore, - because we are so much used to it.

[Targal]

Fire Storm is still cast in front of the caster... WAI?
originally, its range is Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) in 3.5e and 150 ft in 5e.

[nobodynobody1426]

Fire Storm is still cast in front of the caster... WAI?
originally, its range is Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) in 3.5e and 150 ft in 5e.

During the preview 2 dev event Lynn said she was going to fix both the targeting bug and the cast time, she seemed rather determined to find out why it wasn't behaving as it should.

[nobodynobody1426]

To have a real competition people would be agreeing to compete and the closest we have to that is hardcore where there are objective measures, but even there most people are opting out of the competition aspect and instead trying to reach a specific milestone. Competing and comparing yourself to a population that doesn't care and isn't competing is kind of funny when you think about it.

I played magic competitively for years - this is not a competitive game.

Exactly, any game with a competitive aspect has some form of public display of those metrics, usually in the form of rankings, leader boards, badges or tiers. DDO is a trip from 1 to 20, 1 to 30, 15 to 30 or 20 to 30 repeated ad nauseum until the player runs out of reasons to take the trip. Then it's running the exact same 4-5 reaper quests on R10 every day until they hit 156 Reaper Points, upon which the player declares themselves at "end game".

[janave]

Having said this, Air and Ice did just get a buff with the cooldowns of their big spells being reduced by 50%, that is not small. Also air did technically receive a buff with Sonic Blast / Shout / Greater Shout which all benefit from the Air Savant tree.

Sonic spells could be great for the cc component, much less for damage, most variables will still favor casting electric spells over Sonic on an Air Savant. What could help Air Savant is Cyclonic Blast on the new direct damage dice. As well as included into Master of Air feat.

Greater Shout could have some use if the creature trait specific double damage was implemented, and-or the stun and deafened was implemented, but it only "dazes" for 30 spell points and a 8th slot. Meanwhile we get Greater Color Spray for 4sp to pretty much disable mob packs in the same Cone AoE. Fortitude saves are harder to crackthrough than Will. Electric Loop and Sonic Blast can also daze for much less cost.

Air has the absolute worst AoE performance with their max 6 target capped level 6th spell (not necessarily bad design), with nothing to make up for it ( kinda bad design).

The 9th spell cooldown will help for bosses, but not at all for quest clearing, casting 2 Meteors will still be optimal in most quest content.

Anyway base damage and spell power was not universally the problem for each Savant, definitely not for the weaker elements, and now they suffer relatively more from both caster levels and spell power scaling. Air, Earth, Water casters lack many of the high-end interactions that could have put them into the same power level as Fire.

[nobodynobody1426]

Air has the absolute worst AoE performance with their max 6 target capped level 6th spell (not necessarily bad design), with nothing to make up for it ( kinda bad design).

Gonna disagree there having just level air savant to 20 twice and to 30 once. From 1 to 20 air benefits from being one of the lesser resisted elements and having access to three different damage type (electricity, sonic, force). The two big multi-targets are level 5 and 6 with lightening bolt being a very strong single target. A big benefit of chain lightening is that it's auto-targeting and the 6 target cap means it usually hits more then delayed blast fireball or meteor swarm. Blast type spells run the issue of only damaging stuff within a radius of the first target they hit and many times there will be monsters outside of the radius rushing towards you. Where non-fire elements hurt is in epics and that's purely because they don't have a multi-hit level 9 area of effect spell, basically Meteor Swarm to abuse Apotheosis bypass. Instead they have to cast one spell to remove invulnerability then start with damaging spells, which is actually something that every caster in the game other then Fire Sorc or Bomb Alch has to do.

[janave]

Gonna disagree there having just level air savant to 20 twice and to 30 once. From 1 to 20 air benefits from being one of the lesser resisted elements and having access to three different damage type (electricity, sonic, force). The two big multi-targets are level 5 and 6 with lightening bolt being a very strong single target. A big benefit of chain lightening is that it's auto-targeting and the 6 target cap means it usually hits more then delayed blast fireball or meteor swarm. Blast type spells run the issue of only damaging stuff within a radius of the first target they hit and many times there will be monsters outside of the radius rushing towards you. Where non-fire elements hurt is in epics and that's purely because they don't have a multi-hit level 9 area of effect spell, basically Meteor Swarm to abuse Apotheosis bypass. Instead they have to cast one spell to remove invulnerability then start with damaging spells, which is actually something that every caster in the game other then Fire Sorc or Bomb Alch has to do.

Alright, forgot to add at level cap, where all other elemental spells are mathematically superior, before adding opportunity variables that also favor Fire >& Ice mostly.

[srjefe]

Thinking through nuker changes.... torn. I think balance changes need to happen but where in the power curve from casual to super advanced nukers should the changes occur?

What I think this patch affects most is more the casual-to-slightly-more-advanced alchy or sorc build. For e.g., as a more advanced alchy, I have almost 90% crit chance and 127% crit dmg which means almost 3.3X damage on crits 90% of the time! I could throw a handful of peanuts and still kill everything in sight. Moreover, stepping down my SP means i have to perhaps hit with 3 bottles instead 2 of the 4 total bottles - meh. Moreover, a lot of high end LGS builds don't include intensify - ok - so add it to your build and make up some of the difference.

The patch feels like they overbalanced on folks who are more mid-tier players, but doesn't address the massive delta between newbie and advanced alchy - maybe this is OK? If you are nutz like me perhaps rewarding nutzos is a good thing? But I feel its not really going to affect/address too much the top end nuker e.g., LGS build that nuke everything regardless of trimming 150SP, adding 3sec delay - its not really going to change the playstyle.... just means throwing an elemental will be part of the repertoire. So in effect, it just makes the casual to mid-tier folks more flat compared to other classes but really doesn't impact high end nukers.

My question: what was the point/goal of the changes?

Questions - should vulnerability be reduced (time-wise) rather than SP and/or spell cooldown times? It would seem if you made it so that the lingering vuln was decreased time-wise, you might balance without major changes to mechanics? Empyrean is another - this feat rewards fire nukers over others. Make different versions of emp for other elemental types and you are effectively balancing out?

[janave]

Thinking through nuker changes.... torn. I think balance changes need to happen but where in the power curve from casual to super advanced nukers should the changes occur?

What I think this patch affects most is more the casual-to-slightly-more-advanced alchy or sorc build. For e.g., as a more advanced alchy, I have almost 90% crit chance and 127% crit dmg which means almost 3.3X damage on crits 90% of the time! I could throw a handful of peanuts and still kill everything in sight. Moreover, stepping down my SP means i have to perhaps hit with 3 bottles instead 2 of the 4 total bottles - meh. Moreover, a lot of high end LGS builds don't include intensify - ok - so add it to your build and make up some of the difference.

The patch feels like they overbalanced on folks who are more mid-tier players, but doesn't address the massive delta between newbie and advanced alchy - maybe this is OK? If you are nutz like me perhaps rewarding nutzos is a good thing? But I feel its not really going to affect/address too much the top end nuker e.g., LGS build that nuke everything regardless of trimming 150SP, adding 3sec delay - its not really going to change the playstyle.... just means throwing an elemental will be part of the repertoire. So in effect, it just makes the casual to mid-tier folks more flat compared to other classes but really doesn't impact high end nukers.

My question: what was the point/goal of the changes?

Questions - should vulnerability be reduced (time-wise) rather than SP and/or spell cooldown times? It would seem if you made it so that the lingering vuln was decreased time-wise, you might balance without major changes to mechanics? Empyrean is another - this feat rewards fire nukers over others. Make different versions of emp for other elemental types and you are effectively balancing out?

^ this.

Doubt we get an answer

[neain2008]

Quick note after hopping on a druid alt now that I don't have to go through lamania.

Ice flowers uses both cold and force.

As a caster druid I am either in Elder of winter or Child of summer, winter gives boost to cold (and boosts ice flowers caster level), but summer gives boost to force (though does not seem to boost the caster level). So as a druid, my penultimate damage spell will always be losing 30 spellpower from being in the wrong season for half of it. Can we (druids) please get some more spells that fit within a single season? this needing spellpower of every spell type under the sun thing is getting old.

That being said, THANK YOU DEVS for making my spells no longer just a waste of time to cast in epics!

[janave]

^ this.

Doubt we get an answer

Since we did not get an answer in the 1st phase of Sorcerer nerfs why they think:

30-2
20-2
15-2
10-2

Is actually a fair way to nerf spell max caster levels globally ? Most SLAs even more useless than before, and it is not like spell books ever offered an equal base.