As said by LT218 in a different thread.

[dennisck2]

As said by LT218 in another thread

"Hey SSG, here's a pro-tip for you.

Making the fun classes and builds in the game suck doesn't make the lackluster classes in the game suck less. It just makes the game less fun for even more people."

This applies to most of the suggested changes with the new update. You notice most (not all) of the reactions are negative. Will SSG acknowledge this? I hope so, but I doubt it.

I hate to be 'that' guy, but after reading through the proposed changes, I honestly don't think the devs play this game anymore. At least not on difficulties above Heroic Hard. The reasoning isn't there for me. Casters besides Sorc/Alchemist suck, so instead of just making other casters better, lets make Sorcs/Alchemist's suck too! TWF and SWF are not keeping up with THF, so rather than making them better, lets make THF suck too!

Again,

Making the fun classes and builds in the game suck doesn't make the lackluster classes in the game suck less. It just makes the game less fun for even more people."

[droid327]

I honestly don't think the devs play this game anymore. At least not on difficulties above Heroic Hard.

Or, counterpoint, the problem is too many people are playing at difficulties over R5...

Seriously, if this change bumps everyone down from R8s to R6s, so what? Then R6 is just what everyone runs at...thats purely a change in your expectations, not your efficacy.

Unless builds become inviable for EE, I dont think there's any entitlement to complain

[ggmarquez]

Making the fun classes and builds in the game suck doesn't make the lackluster classes in the game suck less. It just makes the game less fun for even more people."

it takes a few months for the player-base to catch up to the meta. that's being very generous, realistically it takes even longer for most people to catch on. sure, a few players have the entire game mapped out in their head can start to theory-craft on the first day of preview... but the thing is, testing a few concepts for a day or two on lammania isn't even in the same category as full play-through from 1-30 on multiple builds in order to actually understand the impact of any change, in any given buff/nerf cycle.

i spent the past 2 days going over some of the key changes, haven't logged in on live... but i am pretty optimistic about most of the proposed changes, and look forward to actually playing the game when those changes make it to live.

i understand the sky is falling mentality. it's pretty much the universal constant of these here' forums. but it will be ok. i don't know how, but i know it will.

[dennisck2]

Or, counterpoint, the problem is too many people are playing at difficulties over R5...

Seriously, if this change bumps everyone down from R8s to R6s, so what? Then R6 is just what everyone runs at...thats purely a change in your expectations, not your efficacy.

Unless builds become inviable for EE, I dont think there's any entitlement to complain

I want to start by saying to you that, like SpartanKiller, I enjoy your posts here and on the other forum and appreciate your contributions to DDO as a whole.

That being said, how can 'too many people' be playing at difficulties over r5? People play what they want to play. If a person isn't interested in endgame, or r10s or anything like that, then that's fine. I don't tell other folks how to play. But the fact is, a LOT of people do play those difficulties and that is what is fun for them. Pretending they don't exist doesn't solve the problem either. The game isn't built around Epic or Heroic elite anymore. I don't want folks who play easier difficulties to get their playstyle nerfed, but mine shouldn't be either.

And so far as entitlement to complain, I pay for this game like a lot of other folks do. If I feel like I'm getting hosed by a decision I think is bad, I 100% can complain. It might not change anything, but I can do it.

[Matuse]

Your definition of "fun" being "Able to trivially annihilate highest difficulty content".

Because it isn't how the class plays. This was not changed. You just want bigger numbers because ZOMG, BIGGER NUMBERS!

It's a poor argument, and not going to sway anybody.

[LjasonL]

Your definition of "fun" being "Able to trivially annihilate highest difficulty content".

Because it isn't how the class plays. This was not changed. You just want bigger numbers because ZOMG, BIGGER NUMBERS!

It's a poor argument, and not going to sway anybody.

Even with smaller numbers players were beating r10 content it just took a while before people caught on to how it was done in the first place and how to get your main stats high enough to work.
They can make alchemist unfun to play. Someone will still be able to instakill trash mobs and keep the deathwarded mobs stunlocked while a tank intims any rednames / immune mobs.
A good group will trivially annihilate "difficult" content with lower damage numbers. Invalidating a playstyle wont change that. If they could fix the ai it would resolve itself but we know that is probably not happening.
(reaper quests not raids)

[timmy9999]

I want to start by saying to you that, like SpartanKiller, I enjoy your posts here and on the other forum and appreciate your contributions to DDO as a whole.

That being said, how can 'too many people' be playing at difficulties over r5? People play what they want to play. If a person isn't interested in endgame, or r10s or anything like that, then that's fine. I don't tell other folks how to play. But the fact is, a LOT of people do play those difficulties and that is what is fun for them. Pretending they don't exist doesn't solve the problem either. The game isn't built around Epic or Heroic elite anymore. I don't want folks who play easier difficulties to get their playstyle nerfed, but mine shouldn't be either.

And so far as entitlement to complain, I pay for this game like a lot of other folks do. If I feel like I'm getting hosed by a decision I think is bad, I 100% can complain. It might not change anything, but I can do it.

I totally agree thus why I have a beef with alot of these forumites they play a small aspect of the game and assume the whole community does the same. Not enough people read these forums and tell them how it really is after you leave korthos. But the same way and alchemist blows a room apart on r1, r6 or herioc happens in r10 with boosted 1400+ sp 117 crit multiplier and a 73% crit chance, even non boosted. Cc EB , DB most time you dont even get to the multi vial stage..
. Everything destroyed in 2-3 secs, not to mention they can invis, sprint boost and get to the pack before any melee, and for the most part cc the lot and melt face, add to this they have evasion which sorcs don't get and can use the epic Def fighting to end up being a caster with 3-3.5k health. I'm against any nerfing but can see obviously why people call for it, and to think people complained about throwers...what a joke.

[ChaosxBuddha]

AnarchyJesus die for ssg's sin, his words must live on -

im done im done done this is the last time i put my heart and soul in to building a toon and have it smashed in to nothing, i will never feel safe to do that in this game again. seen a lot of friends come and go over the years, for those who still having fun more power to you.

**** your stupid nerfing bait and switch way ssg. now hurry up and ban me u ****ing **** eating ***** pieces of trash goblin sharks, u assless ****less dudes, ****ing tardmandu.

ps: yo mama fat and ugly

[timmy9999]

AnarchyJesus die for ssg's sin, his words must live on -

im done im done done this is the last time i put my heart and soul in to building a toon and have it smashed in to nothing, i will never feel safe to do that in this game again. seen a lot of friends come and go over the years, for those who still having fun more power to you.

**** your stupid nerfing bait and switch way ssg. now hurry up and ban me u ****ing **** eating ***** pieces of trash goblin sharks, u assless ****less dudes, ****ing tardmandu.

ps: yo mama fat and ugly

Who cares reverse the ips nerf, Alchemist's are way too OP :P was a amusing post though, I got a giggle.

[dennisck2]

Even with smaller numbers players were beating r10 content it just took a while before people caught on to how it was done in the first place and how to get your main stats high enough to work.
They can make alchemist unfun to play. Someone will still be able to instakill trash mobs and keep the deathwarded mobs stunlocked while a tank intims any rednames / immune mobs.
A good group will trivially annihilate "difficult" content with lower damage numbers. Invalidating a playstyle wont change that. If they could fix the ai it would resolve itself but we know that is probably not happening.
(reaper quests not raids)

Agreed.

[dennisck2]

I totally agree thus why I have a beef with alot of these forumites they play a small aspect of the game and assume the whole community does the same. Not enough people read these forums and tell them how it really is after you leave korthos. But the same way and alchemist blows a room apart on r1, r6 or herioc happens in r10 with boosted 1400+ sp 117 crit multiplier and a 73% crit chance, even non boosted. Cc EB , DB most time you dont even get to the multi vial stage..
. Everything destroyed in 2-3 secs, not to mention they can invis, sprint boost and get to the pack before any melee, and for the most part cc the lot and melt face, add to this they have evasion which sorcs don't get and can use the epic Def fighting to end up being a caster with 3-3.5k health. I'm against any nerfing but can see obviously why people call for it, and to think people complained about throwers...what a joke.

I'm not arguing that alchemists are OP, but as someone in another thread said, nerf with a scalpel, not with a greataxe.

[Chai]

Cant have people grinding out those reincarnations and reaper points too quickly, or they stop paying into the system to speed that up. New class needs to sell though, so make it better than everything else then nerf the breaks off after the sales slow to a trickle.

[dennisck2]

Your definition of "fun" being "Able to trivially annihilate highest difficulty content".

Because it isn't how the class plays. This was not changed. You just want bigger numbers because ZOMG, BIGGER NUMBERS!

It's a poor argument, and not going to sway anybody.

Hey, thanks for reading my mind! And I wouldn't say I'm 'trivially annihilating highest difficulty content". I do run higher reapers at times, but it's certainly not trivial. I put a lot of work into my build and gearing and past lives. And it's still rough in there.

And I do enjoy seeing big numbers if/when it happens. I would think everyone does. My point was that I think every class should be able to see them, not just a few. And the better way (IMO) is to make all the classes fun to play, not just the meta of the moment. But, thanks for your input.

[dennisck2]

Cant have people grinding out those reincarnations and reaper points too quickly, or they stop paying into the system to speed that up. New class needs to sell though, so make it better than everything else then nerf the breaks off after the sales slow to a trickle.

Where have we seen that before?....:P

[Oxarhamar]

As said by LT218 in another thread

"Hey SSG, here's a pro-tip for you.

Making the fun classes and builds in the game suck doesn't make the lackluster classes in the game suck less. It just makes the game less fun for even more people."

This applies to most of the suggested changes with the new update. You notice most (not all) of the reactions are negative. Will SSG acknowledge this? I hope so, but I doubt it.

I hate to be 'that' guy, but after reading through the proposed changes, I honestly don't think the devs play this game anymore. At least not on difficulties above Heroic Hard. The reasoning isn't there for me. Casters besides Sorc/Alchemist suck, so instead of just making other casters better, lets make Sorcs/Alchemist's suck too! TWF and SWF are not keeping up with THF, so rather than making them better, lets make THF suck too!

Again,

Making the fun classes and builds in the game suck doesn't make the lackluster classes in the game suck less. It just makes the game less fun for even more people."

If there is another thread on the topic did we need this one & why not add to it instead?

[dennisck2]

If there is another thread on the topic did we need this one & why not add to it instead?

I'm saying the comment encompasses multiple threads. From the spell changes to the melee changes to just about all the change threads. You are welcome to agree or disagree with me. I'm not a fan of most of the changes they are proposing, and I'm making it known. As are a lot of other players on the forums. And I feel a lot of the other players feel the same way. Not all of them, but a lot.

Does my post bother you? If so, why?

[Bjond]

Hey SSG, here's a pro-tip

+1 for finding a way to use "pro" and "SSG" in the same sentence.

SSG is a goofy grin driving down the highway @ 40mph in an old beater, head bopping to 80s music, wad of broccoli protruding from teeth. The bumper sticker reads, "Honk if you like my driving!"

Your definition of "fun" being "Able to trivially annihilate highest difficulty content"

There are very few blasters that are even remotely effective past r6. And, well, the complaints are mostly not coming from Alchs and Fire Sorcs, but from everyone about to suffer annihilation as collateral damage.

I'm not arguing that alchemists are OP, but as someone in another thread said, nerf with a scalpel, not with a greataxe.

Yeah. The solution to Alchs and Fire Sorcs XP'ing too fast is not to cut everyone else off at the knees along with them. The nerf kills 4 of my characters (all non-casters). My caster is fine with it.

[Lupito]

What are you talking about?...sorc and alch were dominating groups up to r6 by one shoting packs, this nerf was obviously coming..
Also They buffed artificer, cleric, fvs, bard casting abilities go play some new builds

[Dnarth]

Or, counterpoint, the problem is too many people are playing at difficulties over R5...

Seriously, if this change bumps everyone down from R8s to R6s, so what? Then R6 is just what everyone runs at...thats purely a change in your expectations, not your efficacy.

Unless builds become inviable for EE, I dont think there's any entitlement to complain

lol really? Really? You think people are running over r5 because of the THF buff a year ago or because of the least played class alch that only gain popularity some with the Dec sale. lol I am not bumping down to r6 because of this nerf. I am also not playing fire sorc for racial past lives. I did for tiefling and probably will after the nerf when I finish the last two tief lives. I may have done one dragonborn life as one. So yeah not dumping down because of the nerf because I didn't bump down when there wasn't the a thf buff nor alch.

You are surmising that people only play over r5 because their build is "overtuned" (as Steelstar used it)? On a side note something is either tuned or out of tune. Enough digression. So what is it? Is it this strawman problem or is it people like a challenge?

Come on we are 4 years in on reaper. Are you still scared to die a millions times in a challenge? Or are do you still wince from the old days of bring your own heals and people yelling at you because you destroyed their perfect victory?

[Chai]

lol really? Really? You think people are running over r5 because of the THF buff a year ago or because of the least played class alch that only gain popularity some with the Dec sale. lol I am not bumping down to r6 because of this nerf. I am also not playing fire sorc for racial past lives. I did for tiefling and probably will after the nerf when I finish the last two tief lives. I may have done one dragonborn life as one. So yeah not dumping down because of the nerf because I didn't bump down when there wasn't the a thf buff nor alch.

You are surmising that people only play over r5 because their build is "overtuned" (as Steelstar used it)? On a side note something is either tuned or out of tune. Enough digression. So what is it? Is it this strawman problem or is it people like a challenge?

Come on we are 4 years in on reaper. Are you still scared to die a millions times in a challenge? Or are do you still wince from the old days of bring your own heals and people yelling at you because you destroyed their perfect victory?

Might be true for the well farmed, but not so much for those trying to get in the game. The issue here is the entire system is set up to more quickly reward those who already spent the most time farming. Those who are already farmed to the gills won't bump down, but those who are just arriving will likely have to.

It hasnt been a "git gud" or "L2P" issue for like 8 years now. Time consumption is the gating factor here, not skill. Unless you can find me some folks who cant circle-strafe and are still keyboard turning.

As for wincing from the old days of bring your own heals and people yelling because someone destroyed their perfect victory - their tears are still on full display in the trophy case. Those meltdown videos make for some great nostalgia.