Comparison between Greater ruin and Multivial

[Fanaval]

Hello devs,

We all know that Greater ruin is a level 30 feat and ruin is a level 27 feat. They are both single target and have 15 seconds cooldown. Ruin is 75 sp and Gruin is 150 sp.

Confront this damage with the NON epic and NON feat spell Multivial (6 sec cooldown) and Multivial SLA (12 sec cooldown) of the alchemist. Multivial is area damage and every single vial (four launched in total) does more damage (area damage) than a greater ruin with less cooldown for both spell and SLA.

With multivial you end up with area damage at least four time greater of Greater ruin: a single target feat spell taken at level 30. I know that Ruin and Greater ruin have not saving throws and are untyped damage but if can actually see (live) the dps of an alchemist using multivial and a wizard using Ruin and Greater ruin, the latter is laughable.

I think wizards deserves at least a bit of dps if they choose the Ruin/Greater ruin line. If a feat/spell exist it should be useful because a feat spell lvl 30 should be one of the most powerful cards in a character arsenal.

Thanks.

[grubenbrobrobroketv]

have you heard about meteor swarm?

ruin/greater ruin are untyped damage while alch multivial is elemental
multivial has a DC maybe suggest a DC on harm/greater harm to make a damage increase for it seem reasonable
imo those spells are for mobs your build doesnt have the DCs for not something that is to be relied on for damage like the multivial of the Alchemist which is the only reason why alch is relavant

tired of these threads trashing multivial when alch is literally unplayable with out it

[Valerianus]

this suggestion has nothing to do with nerfing the vials, is clearly about reworking the ruins, that take feat slots, i agree that they should be reworked, along with other epic\destiny feats.

[Smokewolf]

this suggestion has nothing to do with nerfing the vials, is clearly about reworking the ruins, that take feat slots, i agree that they should be reworked, along with other epic\destiny feats.

+1

[droid327]

have you heard about meteor swarm?

ruin/greater ruin are untyped damage while alch multivial is elemental
multivial has a DC maybe suggest a DC on harm/greater harm to make a damage increase for it seem reasonable
imo those spells are for mobs your build doesnt have the DCs for not something that is to be relied on for damage like the multivial of the Alchemist which is the only reason why alch is relavant

tired of these threads trashing multivial when alch is literally unplayable with out it

Having a save for half damage doesn't mean much if you're doing more than 4x the damage...

Even if your DC is 1 you still do twice as much dps

Agree with op, ruins need an update. For the cost and opportunity cost they should basically be like iceberg or thunderstroke but better.

I will point out one thing - they bypass elemental resists and mrr, which might have more relevance in higher skulls, but not enough to make up for the low base damage

[janave]

The Ruin Epic Feats/Spells could be improved in many ways:

a) reduce spell cost
b) increase damage
c) apply a debuff, eg: MRR & PRR -10 for 10 seconds ( similar to Shattered Device)
d) let us choose Ruin in 21 and 24 feat slots, let us choose greater ruin in the 27 feat slot
e) add a moderate chance to double hits


... or a combination of the above.

My preferred version would be one scaling with Transmutation Caster levels ( another reason to invest into this school as a primary spec), they both could have dice rolls and a fortitude save with a new character friendly DC, 20 + CHARACTER LEVEL + (INT | WIS | CHA) mod + Transmutation enhancements. Target Undead, Constructs could lose large percentage of fortification on a failed save. ~50%?

[slarden]

The Ruin Epic Feats/Spells could be improved in many ways:

a) reduce spell cost
b) increase damage
c) apply a debuff, eg: MRR & PRR -10 for 10 seconds ( similar to Shattered Device)
d) let us choose Ruin in 21 and 24 feat slots, let us choose greater ruin in the 27 feat slot
e) add a moderate chance to double hits


... or a combination of the above.

My preferred version would be one scaling with Transmutation Caster levels ( another reason to invest into this school as a primary spec), they both could have dice rolls and a fortitude save with a new character friendly DC, 20 + CHARACTER LEVEL + (INT | WIS | CHA) mod + Transmutation enhancements. Target Undead, Constructs could lose large percentage of fortification on a failed save. ~50%?

Good ideas. I take ruin, greater ruin and arcane pulse on my warlock and wizard for the simple reason boss fights are horrendous without them - and from a soloing perspective there is no point after R6 as they are just too expensive in terms of sp. Things like feed on magic help with that somewhat, but I agree with OP's point that some classes have better dps without investing those 3 feat slots and for less sp. There should be an adjustment - a level 27, 29 and 30 feat shouldn't be worse than a level 5 spell. Arcane pulse is good because I can just use meta on the 5th cast to save sp.

This has nothing to do with nerfing alchemist, but they should revisit and reverse the warlock nerfs because the math just doesn't compute - if alchemist and sorc dps is ok - the old warlock dps that was nerfed would still be less than alchemist and sorc.