Results 1 to 3 of 3
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    71

    Post Improve defensive repertoire of mages

    I think the current defensive options for mages are lacking.



    Tweaking Existing Tools

    Mage Armor
    Conjuration (Sor/Wiz 1)
    An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC.

    Taking a look at the original description of the spell:
    By means of this spell, the wizard creates a magical field of force that serves as if it were scale mail armor (AC 6). It is cumulative with Dexterity and, in the case of Fighter/Mages, with the shield bonus. The Armor spell does not hinder movement, and does not prevent spellcasting. It lasts until successfully dispelled or until the duration runs out.
    Spells that emulate armor should get all the benefits of the emulated armor.
    The Mage Armor spell by design offers an equivalent protection as a Scale Mail armor - which is a medium armor - thus it should also grant 1.5 * BAB PRR.

    Stoneskin
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 4)
    The warded creature gains resistance to blows, cuts, stabs, and slashes.

    I think this spell is busted beyond repair.
    Damage numbers have grown so much that 10 DR means nothing these days.

    Some possible fixes:

    Option1: use % damage reduction
    Reduce the damage by 10% (min 10), unless the attack can bypass adamantite DR
    examples:
    - character has 50 PRR and is hit by an attack dealing 50 base damage
    stoneskin reduces damage by 10 (10% is 5, but min damage reduction is 10)
    then PRR further reduces damage to ~27
    remaining damage reduction reduced by 10
    - character has 100 PRR and is hit by an attack dealing 300 base damage
    stoneskin reduces damage by 30 (10% is 30)
    then PRR further reduces damage to ~135
    remaining damage reduction reduced by 30
    - character has 150 PRR and is hit by an attack dealing 1000 base damage
    stoneskin reduces damage by 100 (10% is 100)
    then PRR further reduces damage to ~360
    remaining damage reduction reduced by 100

    Option2: return to the AD&D stoneskin rules
    The first 1d4 + 1 attack/2 caster levels are ignored unless the attack can bypass adamantite DR
    examples:
    - CL 10 caster casts stoneskin -> the first 6-9 attacks are ignored
    - CL 20 caster casts stoneskin -> the first 11-14 attacks are ignored



    Introducing New Tools

    Levitate
    Transmutation (Sor/Wiz 2)
    Levitate allows you to move yourself, another creature, or an object up and down as you wish (Space - Up; Shift - Down).
    The spell cannot elevate you higher than the ceiling. Dispel magic will end the effect making the target fall.

    Goal: to escape melee by being elevated.

    Mirror Image
    Illusion (Sor/Wiz 2)
    Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack.
    The images disappear when hit and force the attacker to seek a new target.

    Goal: when the enemy is killing your images he is not killing you.

    Wind Wall
    Evocation [Air] (Sor/Wiz 3)
    An invisible vertical curtain of wind appears.
    Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance.

    Goal: to protect the party from ranged attacks.

    Wall of Force
    Evocation [Force] (Sor/Wiz 5)
    Creates an invisible wall of force, that blocks all incoming attacks.
    The wall can only be destroyed by Disintegrate and Disjunction.

    Goal: control the battle. Having a wall blocking all damage and restricting movement is useful.

    Mislead
    Illusion (Sor/Wiz 6)
    You become invisible (greater invisibility - does not break), and at the same time, an illusory double of you appears.
    The image will move randomly attracting enemy attention.

    Goal: having a wandering image causing havoc on the battlefield while you are safe and hidden.

    Spell Turning
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 7)
    Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster.
    The spell can reflect 1d4+6 level of spells.

    Goal: to protect against harmful spells. Enemies casting hold person on you and being held themselves is a great sight.

    Forcecage
    Evocation [Force] (Sor/Wiz 7)
    Creates an invisible cubical prison composed of either bars of force or solid walls of force.

    Goal: restrict enemy movements and killing them with ranged attacks and spells.

    Prismatic Wall
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 8)
    Prismatic wall creates a vertical, opaque wall—a shimmering, multicolored plane of light that protects you from all forms of attack.

    Goal: like wall of force, but better - any creature that tries to pass through is killed, turned to stone, goes insane, teleported to another plane and suffers massive damage.

    Prismatic Sphere
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 9)
    You conjure up an immobile, opaque globe of shimmering, multicolored light that surrounds you and protects you from all forms of attack.

    Goal: the ultimate defensive spell - protects the caster from all effects and any creature that tries to pass through is killed, turned to stone, goes insane, teleported to another plane and suffers massive damage.



    Specialized Tools - Protection vs Extradimensional movement

    Extradimensional movement abilities like
    astral projection, blink, dimensional door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport.. etc.
    are widely used by Demons, Devils and Reapers alike.

    These abilities are dangerous to mages, since the hostile creature can traverse the distance instantly and possibly one-shot the mage.
    To combat creatures with these terrifying abilities mages have developed the following spells:

    Dimensional Anchor
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 4)
    Single target ray attack spell that applies a debuff to the target which blocks all dimensional movement for the duration of the spell.

    Goal: disable targets ability to teleport.

    Dimensional Lock
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 8)
    Creates a 20-ft radius area where extradimensional travel is not possible.

    Goal: create an area where enemies cannot teleport into or cannot teleport out of.



    Specialized Tools - defend against surprise attacks

    Some encounters can place the mage in a disadvantageous position.
    The following spells were developed to even the odds:

    Contingency
    Evocation (Sor/Wiz 6)
    You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency.
    Only one contingency spell can be active at a time.

    Possible implementation:
    - when casting Contingency select a pre-defined condition from the list (ex.: caster takes damage, caster is falling, caster is drowning, caster is cursed... etc.)
    - the next spell you cast - meeting the requirements of contingency - will be stored and activated when the conditions are met

    examples:
    - condition: caster is falling - effect: cast featherfall
    - condition: caster takes damage - effect: cast stoneskin
    - condition: caster takes damage - effect: cast repair critical damage (for warforged)
    - condition: caster is drowning - effect: cast water breathing

    Goal: to prepare for a specific situation.

    Time Stop
    Transmutation (Sor/Wiz 9)
    Time slows down in the area for everyone but you. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds apparent time (12-30 sec). Creatures frozen in time cannot be harmed or targeted.

    Goal: to give you time to prepare - buff, summon or escape.

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    420

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    I think the current defensive options for mages are lacking.
    What are they lacking in your opinion? How does it fit with their characteristik of being the moist vulnerable characters against damage and what should changes address?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post


    Tweaking Existing Tools

    Mage Armor
    Conjuration (Sor/Wiz 1)
    An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC.

    Taking a look at the original description of the spell:


    Spells that emulate armor should get all the benefits of the emulated armor.
    The Mage Armor spell by design offers an equivalent protection as a Scale Mail armor - which is a medium armor - thus it should also grant 1.5 * BAB PRR.
    Wrong edition. SSG doesn't own D&D and therefore can only work within certain borders of the IP, that's why they can't make Heal a class-skill for wizards, for example. The actual right description for Mage Armor in this case ist:

    An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of mage armor, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC. Unlike mundane armor, mage armor entails no armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, or speed reduction. Since mage armor is made of force, incorporeal creatures can't bypass it the way they do normal armor.
    The original spell (for the edition DDO uses) even mentions that this doesn't work in any way like armor, therefore making it like armor isn't an option, I suppose. The EK already tweaks this by adding it as an SLA with a %-armor bonus on top.



    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Stoneskin
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 4)
    The warded creature gains resistance to blows, cuts, stabs, and slashes.

    I think this spell is busted beyond repair.
    Damage numbers have grown so much that 10 DR means nothing these days.

    Some possible fixes:

    Option1: use % damage reduction
    Reduce the damage by 10% (min 10), unless the attack can bypass adamantite DR
    examples:
    - character has 50 PRR and is hit by an attack dealing 50 base damage
    stoneskin reduces damage by 10 (10% is 5, but min damage reduction is 10)
    then PRR further reduces damage to ~27
    remaining damage reduction reduced by 10
    - character has 100 PRR and is hit by an attack dealing 300 base damage
    stoneskin reduces damage by 30 (10% is 30)
    then PRR further reduces damage to ~135
    remaining damage reduction reduced by 30
    - character has 150 PRR and is hit by an attack dealing 1000 base damage
    stoneskin reduces damage by 100 (10% is 100)
    then PRR further reduces damage to ~360
    remaining damage reduction reduced by 100
    I'm personally fine with the power of this 4th level defense buff, as PRR in tandem with DR absolutely makes a difference and it should be rather handled as an emergency net, instead of an active defense. Would rather see greater stoneskin and goldskin released for wiz/sorc as superior versions of the same spell.



    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Option2: return to the AD&D stoneskin rules
    The first 1d4 + 1 attack/2 caster levels are ignored unless the attack can bypass adamantite DR
    examples:
    - CL 10 caster casts stoneskin -> the first 6-9 attacks are ignored
    - CL 20 caster casts stoneskin -> the first 11-14 attacks are ignored
    "Returning" to older editions is never ever an option, license problems as I mentioned before. You can look at them for some inspiration, but copying them bring legal problems. Also, ignoring attacks is like the worst way to implement it, especially in an MMO, but there is a reason, why this mechanikc never returned after 2e.
    What will such a change bring? Everyone going around with hundrewds Stoneskin scrolls, because even the minimum of 3 attacks are worth blocking which will make high difficulties like r10 much easier, as such a mechanic doesn't differentiate between the power of attacks.



    Introducing New Tools

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Levitate
    Transmutation (Sor/Wiz 2)
    Levitate allows you to move yourself, another creature, or an object up and down as you wish (Space - Up; Shift - Down).
    The spell cannot elevate you higher than the ceiling. Dispel magic will end the effect making the target fall.

    Goal: to escape melee by being elevated.
    This brings two big problems: DDOs rather simple AI can't handle three dimensional space easily, which will lead to strategies like intimidating melees while in air to make them useless (or similar shenanigans), which wouldn't be a problem with one or two quests, but is certainly bad for all. That's why all quests with flying mechanics have mobs build around them (Stormreaver has many ranged options, in Just Business you have tons of archers and mobs with gliders, Underlaine gives the sleds rather late, the enemies you have to pass has some as well, and you can only use them in a certain areas).

    Aside from that, I'm sure that this would break several quests mobility wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Mirror Image
    Illusion (Sor/Wiz 2)
    Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack.
    The images disappear when hit and force the attacker to seek a new target.

    Goal: when the enemy is killing your images he is not killing you.
    Old Stoneskin problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Wind Wall
    Evocation [Air] (Sor/Wiz 3)
    An invisible vertical curtain of wind appears.
    Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance.

    Goal: to protect the party from ranged attacks.
    This could somewhat work, though I don't know enogh about the game to


    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Wall of Force
    Evocation [Force] (Sor/Wiz 5)
    Creates an invisible wall of force, that blocks all incoming attacks.
    The wall can only be destroyed by Disintegrate and Disjunction.

    Goal: control the battle. Having a wall blocking all damage and restricting movement is useful.
    Absolutely bad idea. The wall had to block both, players and enemies to not create shenanigans from the get-go, have to be able to block missiles and spells (which would require to create blocking terrain wherever possible, which may strain the game too much, plus certain spells have to be fixed like fireballs that can do damage behind walls), and while creating a waiting game isn't fun for many (aside from the monsters, which may build up dungeon alert without any problem in certain spaces), unless the force takes up much space in every direction, which will probably bring their own problems, it's almost certain that we will get wall-walking passes in several quests, because players are really creative. No need t

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Mislead
    Illusion (Sor/Wiz 6)
    You become invisible (greater invisibility - does not break), and at the same time, an illusory double of you appears.
    The image will move randomly attracting enemy attention.

    Goal: having a wandering image causing havoc on the battlefield while you are safe and hidden.
    There are reasons, why Greater Invisibility has been banned to Epic Destinies, you know?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Spell Turning
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 7)
    Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster.
    The spell can reflect 1d4+6 level of spells.

    Goal: to protect against harmful spells. Enemies casting hold person on you and being held themselves is a great sight.
    Personally, the problem with my casters are almost never spells, so I don't even know how it should make an improvement at all. In addition, every spell would probably need rework to figure out, if it works against spell turning or not. I mean, maybe a spell absorbing spell (as we can build upon items that do it) may be possible, with a tremendous cooldown or something like that? Though the reason remains, why bother.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Forcecage
    Evocation [Force] (Sor/Wiz 7)
    Creates an invisible cubical prison composed of either bars of force or solid walls of force.

    Goal: restrict enemy movements and killing them with ranged attacks and spells.
    We already have plenty of CC, and introducing CC with evocation seems to be a bad idea, as it brings high damage and CC on the same DC, which currently is avoided. Just use Hold Monster for the same effect.


    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Prismatic Wall
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 8)
    Prismatic wall creates a vertical, opaque wall—a shimmering, multicolored plane of light that protects you from all forms of attack.

    Goal: like wall of force, but better - any creature that tries to pass through is killed, turned to stone, goes insane, teleported to another plane and suffers massive damage.

    Prismatic Sphere
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 9)
    You conjure up an immobile, opaque globe of shimmering, multicolored light that surrounds you and protects you from all forms of attack.

    Goal: the ultimate defensive spell - protects the caster from all effects and any creature that tries to pass through is killed, turned to stone, goes insane, teleported to another plane and suffers massive damage.
    Wall of Force problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post


    Specialized Tools - Protection vs Extradimensional movement

    Extradimensional movement abilities like
    astral projection, blink, dimensional door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport.. etc.
    are widely used by Demons, Devils and Reapers alike.

    These abilities are dangerous to mages, since the hostile creature can traverse the distance instantly and possibly one-shot the mage.
    To combat creatures with these terrifying abilities mages have developed the following spells:

    Dimensional Anchor
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 4)
    Single target ray attack spell that applies a debuff to the target which blocks all dimensional movement for the duration of the spell.

    Goal: disable targets ability to teleport.
    Seriously? You can just step aside or use one of your many tools to deal with it, beginning with dismissal, which is an insta-kill for devils/demons at the same level. Fiddling with teleport-mechanics doesn't seem to be worth the investment. Later on, insta-kills, CCs, so why bother using this, if most casters have more powerful tools in their tool boxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Dimensional Lock
    Abjuration (Sor/Wiz 8)
    Creates a 20-ft radius area where extradimensional travel is not possible.

    Goal: create an area where enemies cannot teleport into or cannot teleport out of.
    I'm 99.9999% sure that implementing this would cause all teleportation-stuff to be reworked for an effect that's not really needed imo.



    Specialized Tools - defend against surprise attacks

    Some encounters can place the mage in a disadvantageous position.
    The following spells were developed to even the odds:


    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Contingency
    Evocation (Sor/Wiz 6)
    You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency.
    Only one contingency spell can be active at a time.

    Possible implementation:
    - when casting Contingency select a pre-defined condition from the list (ex.: caster takes damage, caster is falling, caster is drowning, caster is cursed... etc.)
    - the next spell you cast - meeting the requirements of contingency - will be stored and activated when the conditions are met

    examples:
    - condition: caster is falling - effect: cast featherfall
    - condition: caster takes damage - effect: cast stoneskin
    - condition: caster takes damage - effect: cast repair critical damage (for warforged)
    - condition: caster is drowning - effect: cast water breathing

    Goal: to prepare for a specific situation.
    Aside how complicated that spell would need to be implemented as you liked it to, DDO is rather merciful in its surprise moments, which usually boil down to 2 reasons: Not paying attention or not knowing the quest. Preperation beforehand is more than enough. Good spell for the tabletop, as you can be really creative, MMORPGs shouldn't try to be too open/creative unless they have the tools to deal with the consequences. DDO doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    Time Stop
    Transmutation (Sor/Wiz 9)
    Time slows down in the area for everyone but you. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds apparent time (12-30 sec). Creatures frozen in time cannot be harmed or targeted.

    Goal: to give you time to prepare - buff, summon or escape.
    You will kicked from every party that way, because I would abhor being unable to play the game for 12-30 seconds. Also dungeon shenanigans.








    So from where I stand, none of the suggestions here can hold up, and it's hard to build up on them, as I have no idea, why having tools like displacement, (greater) heroism, shield, several enhancement, and such are supposed to be not enough for classes, that are supposed to be the most squishiest by design. Especially with EK, which gives a lot of defensive tools, like the ability to actually wear medium armor, an emergency forceshield, etc.

  3. #3
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    71

    Post

    Thank you for responding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    What are they lacking in your opinion? How does it fit with their characteristik of being the moist vulnerable characters against damage and what should changes address?
    The current game uses hugely inflated numbers coming from loot, tomes, enhancements, past lives... etc.
    Also there are multiple new systems that deviate from the PnP rules - AC and ToHit implementation, PRR, MRR, Dodge... etc.

    A lot of the defensive spells were never adjusted to work with and benefit from these new systems.
    Just take a look at the difference between 4 AC in this game vs 4 AC in tabletop?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    Wrong edition. SSG doesn't own D&D and therefore can only work within certain borders of the IP, that's why they can't make Heal a class-skill for wizards, for example. The actual right description for Mage Armor in this case ist:

    The original spell (for the edition DDO uses) even mentions that this doesn't work in any way like armor, therefore making it like armor isn't an option, I suppose. The EK already tweaks this by adding it as an SLA with a %-armor bonus on top.
    The reason I have included the 2nd edition description of the spell is to talk about design.
    There is a 1st edition version in unearthed arcana, but that used the leather armor (8 AC) for its defense values (fun fact the spell component remained a piece of cured leather even in later editions).

    So my argument was that if this spell is there to emulate armor then it should benefit from the characteristics of armor.
    It is true that the later editions do not talk about armor - but they don't talk about PRR, MRR and Dodge either - since those concepts do not exist or are different in the core game.

    You can also make the argument that even 2nd edition optional rules made a difference between real armor and mage armor, since real armor could get AC penalties depending what weapon type you attacked it.
    Mage armor is arguably better than real armor, since it has no such flaws and also protects you from incorporeal attack, while real armor doesn't - or at least based on the description it shouldn't.
    I will try and test it later, to see if it is implemented or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    I'm personally fine with the power of this 4th level defense buff, as PRR in tandem with DR absolutely makes a difference and it should be rather handled as an emergency net, instead of an active defense. Would rather see greater stoneskin and goldskin released for wiz/sorc as superior versions of the same spell.
    Fair enough.
    Just a question: Do you use Stoneskin in epic or legendary content?
    Or is there a point where you no longer bother, since the benefits using resources for -10 damage per hit are so negligible that you spend your SP or time elsewhere.

    I have been playing wizards since 1st edition and know of Metal Skin (Wu Jen spell) and Iron Body (Sor/Wiz 8), but before alchemist introduced the spell to DDO I have never heard of Gold Skin. So why should it be added to the wizard spell list?

    Also isn't Greater Stoneskin a forgotten realms specific spell that offers 20/adamantite protection? Because -20 damage per hit in an environment where some enemies can hit over a 1000 is also meaningless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    "Returning" to older editions is never ever an option, license problems as I mentioned before. You can look at them for some inspiration, but copying them bring legal problems. Also, ignoring attacks is like the worst way to implement it, especially in an MMO, but there is a reason, why this mechanikc never returned after 2e.
    What will such a change bring? Everyone going around with hundrewds Stoneskin scrolls, because even the minimum of 3 attacks are worth blocking which will make high difficulties like r10 much easier, as such a mechanic doesn't differentiate between the power of attacks.
    I see your point.

    There is just a little nitpick - if we are using the 2nd edition implementation of Stoneskin the protection is expended regardless an enemy hits or misses the attack.
    So 3 attacks in a regular quest would be spent really quickly and by the time you swap to scroll and cast Stoneskin your protection is probably already gone.

    The reason I have brought up the 2nd edition implementation of Stoneskin is because I play Baldurs Gate 2 SCS on hardest difficulty and face similar challenges in that game - namely enemy damage numbers are inflated, that you have to rely on tools that ignore the damage:
    - in DDO these tools are High AC, Dodge, Concealment and Incorporeality.
    - in BG these are Stoneskin, Protection from Magical Weapons, Mantle and Absolute Immunity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    This brings two big problems: DDOs rather simple AI can't handle three dimensional space easily, which will lead to strategies like intimidating melees while in air to make them useless (or similar shenanigans), which wouldn't be a problem with one or two quests, but is certainly bad for all. That's why all quests with flying mechanics have mobs build around them (Stormreaver has many ranged options, in Just Business you have tons of archers and mobs with gliders, Underlaine gives the sleds rather late, the enemies you have to pass has some as well, and you can only use them in a certain areas).

    Aside from that, I'm sure that this would break several quests mobility wise.
    You can work around some of the problems, for example:
    - by flagging the hovering character unreachable you can exclude melees from trying to path to him. So after the intimidate is used only ranged attackers and casters will change their targets.
    - you can set the spell duration for 6 sec / CL, or even give it a hard cap and a high cooldown - so the spell becomes an escape rather than something you use as an exploit.
    - you can restrict movement skills from working while the spell is in effect - arguing that while levitating you are suspended by magical energy and have no solid surface to push yourself away from
    - similarly you could restrict most ranged attacks, since you have no leverage and you need a solid ground to stand on in order to use archery
    - you can script the AI to prefer to cast dispel magic on levitating targets

    Enemy mages could use the spell too, to challenge builds that fail to diversify.
    Anything that improves the combat complexity is great in my book.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    Old Stoneskin problem.
    Why is this the old Stoneskin problem?

    The enemies choose a target to hit, and the more images you have the less chance they will hit you.
    Let's say you have 4 images, then there is a 20% chance you will be targeted.
    If an image is targeted instead it will disappear when hit and the enemy will choose a new target increasing its chances to select you as a target to 25%... and so on.

    Not to mention as in case of Stoneskin, this spell also has a weakness:
    - Stoneskin can be bypassed by adamantine weapons
    - Mirror Image can be ignored if the attacker has True Sight


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    Absolutely bad idea. The wall had to block both, players and enemies to not create shenanigans from the get-go, have to be able to block missiles and spells (which would require to create blocking terrain wherever possible, which may strain the game too much, plus certain spells have to be fixed like fireballs that can do damage behind walls), and while creating a waiting game isn't fun for many (aside from the monsters, which may build up dungeon alert without any problem in certain spaces), unless the force takes up much space in every direction, which will probably bring their own problems, it's almost certain that we will get wall-walking passes in several quests, because players are really creative. No need t
    I don't see too much problem with the projectile blocking causing performance hits - if this would be a problem you would already see the same by just hiding behind walls or closed doors.
    I would like to see fireballs getting fixed.

    My main problem I have with your response is wizards are supposed to be the problem solvers and the class that uses their spells in creative ways.
    Why is it a problem if you can solve an encounter or a dungeon by blocking a corridor with a wall?
    The objective in most quests is not to kill everything but to satisfy certain conditions.

    On the current spell list there is almost nothing that could be used in a creative way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    There are reasons, why Greater Invisibility has been banned to Epic Destinies, you know?
    Yeah, because heroic mage npcs are too lazy to cast see invisibility or true sight on mobs.

    Its simple, even infinity engine games do it:
    The lame solution: if you are in range of NPC mages while invisible they will cast See Invisibility or True Sight.
    The better solution: if you fail your move silently check or NPCs pass their listen checks - NPCs enter search mode + their mages will cast See Invisibility or True Sight.

    Why not just give them see invisibility or true sight?
    Because then you cannot use your tools.
    If dispel magic is ever fixed you can dispel their detection spells and reenter invisibility.

    Why not cast these spells when the map is initialized? Since the spells are cast they can still be dispelled.
    True, and if it makes sense for the encounter (NPCs expecting the PCs), or a dungeon alert was raised I would like to see them do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    Personally, the problem with my casters are almost never spells, so I don't even know how it should make an improvement at all. In addition, every spell would probably need rework to figure out, if it works against spell turning or not. I mean, maybe a spell absorbing spell (as we can build upon items that do it) may be possible, with a tremendous cooldown or something like that? Though the reason remains, why bother.
    You have a point.
    Normally spell turning works on spells that require a target. But in DDO you can fire magic missile aimlessly and normally that too would require a target or targets.
    At the moment I think only simple single target spells that require you to select a target could be used by this.

    I would like to see Spell Mantle added too. Especially since it has multiple versions (lesser, greater... etc)

    Why bother?
    I am hoping that the spell system will eventually get an overhaul and we can get more complex interactions.
    If this would ever happen you could find a good use for this spell.
    Not to mention enemies could cast it too, forcing you to think about what you cast - since turning back a spell that can annihilate you with its secondary effects is spooky :grin:


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    We already have plenty of CC, and introducing CC with evocation seems to be a bad idea, as it brings high damage and CC on the same DC, which currently is avoided. Just use Hold Monster for the same effect.
    This is better then Hold Monster, because it works on some bosses too. If they have no SR, teleportation, disintegrate or disjunction then they are trapped and must rely on ranged attacks or spells.
    They do not have ranged attacks and spells but you do?
    Well congrats, you have won the encounter!

    You could say that this sounds broken. And it is broken, but also fun.
    The only way to balance it would be to use rare components that you have to farm out - so you can only use it in rare cases and not in every fight.

    Also many high level enemies should have tools to escape it like:
    - successful SR check - they can walk through it, or if you have SR you could do the same
    - extradimensional movement abilities like teleport - this is why I wrote a section about defending against teleportation
    - antimagic or disjunction - an enemy with antimagic sphere would be great, since that would remove 70% of player power - the magic items and spells
    - disintegrate

    The current combat is fast but boring.
    My main goal is to make the combat more interesting and more fun.

    Also I like having encounters that you can solve easily or fail utterly - both sound amazing to me.
    I don't like the you failed the objective = no XP for you approach.
    In fact I would like to see quest lines where failure is an option and it impacts encounters in subsequent quests - makes them more difficult.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    Wall of Force problems.
    Well, the wall is more like a super powered firewall that will annihilate every enemy that is trying to pass through it, with the added quirk of also blocking spells and projectiles.
    Globe of Invulnerability already excludes spells, so having a version of that adapted to the wall could work.

    The main issue I see with this spell is that it is super effective and many people would spam it to exploit the weak AI.
    Maybe adding a weak fear effect to the spell - to discourage some monsters from entering the area could prevent monster genocide.
    Also I would add a high cooldown to avoid spamming.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    Seriously? You can just step aside or use one of your many tools to deal with it, beginning with dismissal, which is an insta-kill for devils/demons at the same level. Fiddling with teleport-mechanics doesn't seem to be worth the investment. Later on, insta-kills, CCs, so why bother using this, if most casters have more powerful tools in their tool boxes?

    I'm 99.9999% sure that implementing this would cause all teleportation-stuff to be reworked for an effect that's not really needed imo.
    If you have high DC then sure. Banishment is even better since it works on multiple enemies.

    But
    - how about demons/devils that have a death ward?
    - how about demons/devils that you encounter on their own plane?
    - how about reapers?

    These are the cases when dimensional anchor and dimensional lock spells would work wonders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    Aside how complicated that spell would need to be implemented as you liked it to, DDO is rather merciful in its surprise moments, which usually boil down to 2 reasons: Not paying attention or not knowing the quest. Preperation beforehand is more than enough. Good spell for the tabletop, as you can be really creative, MMORPGs shouldn't try to be too open/creative unless they have the tools to deal with the consequences. DDO doesn't.
    I use it all the time in BG2, so its not that hard to figure it out.
    Also implementing it should be easier than you expect - depending on what you want to use to build the trigger.
    In my example I used the simple dropdown feature of spells, where you can select different versions of the spell - think of teleport destination with the teleport spell. So each of this will represent an event type - like player is damaged, or whatever. You cast the spell selecting the event type you want and then any subsequent spell you cast on yourself that meets the requirements will be stored in the contingency.

    This is the crappiest implementation i can think using the current tools available.

    If you want to do it in a more fancy way - you can create a UI for it, where you have events and spells listed, and you just construct your contingency - similarly like in BG2.
    In PnP contingency requires minutes to cast, so we could even restrict the spell to only usable when you are rested (can memorize spells).

    The actual scripting should be pretty simple too. The game most likely uses various events and should have an event listener, where you can register your event and if it is triggered then you just cast the spell stored in the action.
    Of course there are some other things you must take care of - like what happens when you leave the quest and stuff like that... but these are just details and a fun exercise for the dev team to figure out. If my tasks would be this juicy I would love my work... They are not


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    You will kicked from every party that way, because I would abhor being unable to play the game for 12-30 seconds. Also dungeon shenanigans.
    Yes if a person is abusing it then they should be kicked out of the party 100%,
    but how about the person that casts it when everyone else is dead and picks up your Soulstones to resurrect you at a safe location?

    We are all adults here and can hopefully judge when a situation is appropriate for such a powerful spell.

    It should also have a very high cooldown - like 10 min or so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    So from where I stand, none of the suggestions here can hold up, and it's hard to build up on them, as I have no idea, why having tools like displacement, (greater) heroism, shield, several enhancement, and such are supposed to be not enough for classes, that are supposed to be the most squishiest by design. Especially with EK, which gives a lot of defensive tools, like the ability to actually wear medium armor, an emergency forceshield, etc.
    Excellent points and this is especially why I made the original post.

    You have the squishiest class, that by design has the worst HP and worst defenses by default. This is true in both PnP and DDO.
    But in PnP there are spells that are designed to ignore conventional systems and are perfect counters to many situations.
    These spells that let mages avoid danger and control the battlefield are largely missing from the game and this is why we get tools like

    - access to medium armor - usually a feature of martial classes
    - access to shields - again not something a regular mage would ever use
    - various enhancements that help you survive by increasing HP, or making you immune to effects... etc

    Don't get me wrong, I love that we have the option to create a spellsword like character, that is survivable and can go into melee and stuff..
    But I am missing the cool plays my traditional mage used to do in, that solved the encounter not by tanking the damage and brute forcing through the hordes of enemies but using a spell creatively.

    That is why I am hoping that eventually when most passes are done the Devs can take a look at the spell system and make it more complex.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload