Other Sorcerer Trees.

[janave]

In the rare and unlikely event Sorcerer would get unique enhancements, what would you like them to be?

My wishlist would be:

• Elemental Savant
  Nuker, similar to what we have, pick an element and run with it, pick a proxy element you can cast without negative levels
  
• Draconic bloodline
  DC caster, burst-boosts, dragon stuff, maybe a lesser breath SLA, small regeneration ability
  
• Wild Mage
  Random onspellcast effects, lower level spell combinations, utility, enchantments/charms, buffs, debuffs, weird stuff: eg cast ice on fire
  

[Somebody87]

Your suggestion seems similar to the bombardier tree. I would like it to be easier for sorcerers to use secondary elements. Thunderstroke is a really fun spell to have and so is Iceberg but fire is just the strongest element for AOE which is a sorcerer's job.

Fire sorcerer is basically the same playstyle as alchemist (except meteor swarm loses 3 caster levels from elemental form and half the damage is impulse). Assuming the meteor swarm problems get fixxed, then fire sorc will match alchemist damage but still not exceed it.

I think increasing the variety of abilities any given sorcerer can call on would give them an edge in single-target damage over alchemists if not AOE. This could be done by allowing sorcerers to have stronger secondary elements or making sure there is a strong AOE and a strong single target level 9 spell in EVERY ELEMENT. That way all sorcerer elements would have the strong single target damage without giving up the AOE damage that can keep up with alchemists.

Add:

• Fire: Incinerate: You attempt to vaporize a target instantly. Single target suffers massive amounts of fire damage comparable to thunderstroke.
• Electric: Electrified Ground: The ground is filled with power that will seek out enemies and surge up through them (or something that makes more sense scientifically).
• Cold: Ice Flower Garden: Ice flowers animation from druid spell but have all the damage be cold and similar in power to acid well or meteor swarm.
• Earth: Acid Envelope: Single enemy gets enveloped in acid which instantly does damage comparable to thunderstroke.
• Enhancements: Make their teir fives scale with cha. Add evocation/conjuration bonuses if you have time but just replacing con with cha scaling feels like it should only take 5 minutes.

You can have lvl 9 spells between different elements sharing cooldowns like all the multivial's do in order to prevent all of them from being rotated.

[janave]

Your suggestion seems similar to the bombardier tree.

Interesting ideas thanks, the spark was quite the opposite direction, i would like Sorcerers to fill in the current class choices in a more unique way, right now few if anything is unique about Sorcerer, it is mostly just "a little more".

Damage output is important but I am less interested in DPS and best numbers really, more like having a space for the class where we can say, okay i choose this because i can do [...list] of fun things with it .

Spell selection meant to be a key component of a Sorcerer build, but if we also want Savant enhancements we get a very narrowed down selection, that would be nice to have a little extra room. Meta magics would be another component, but we dont get any unique bonus on metamagics with Sorcerer.

[droid327]

Mystic Theurge tree, giving access to some divine SLAs/spells in spellbook including heals and cures, as well as positive spell power/crit and maybe light dps spells.

[Somebody87]

Mystic Theurge tree, giving access to some divine SLAs/spells in spellbook including heals and cures, as well as positive spell power/crit and maybe light DPS spells.

Your idea is better than nothing but really it just sends sorcerers moving in the direction to be indistinguishable from alchemists. What would sorcerers do that alchemists can't?

I would rather sorcerers got some powerful single target damage buffs, stronger teleportation abilities, or even some solid damage avoidance systems like a class-based MELD (would be in EK tree and allow for sorcerer/wiz damage avoidance tanks). The possibilities are endless, it just wouldn't accomplish much if it fell into the same category of what alchs can already do.

[Aelonwy]

I would very much like an Enchanter focused tree either for Sorc or Universal. I've seen more than one Enchantress in PnP be a sorc, charisma based, sometimes a tiefling, sometimes a half-elf, just oozing charm and beauty. Not my last group but the campaign before had a guy imitating a southern belle for his enchantress... oh it was awful... but it was funny. Shades of Gone with the Wind.

[droid327]

What would sorcerers do that alchemists can't?

Um...cast Sorc spells? Be EKs?

Not be beholden to clunky Admixture targeting?

...stronger teleportation abilities, or even some solid damage avoidance systems like a class-based MELD (would be in EK tree and allow for sorcerer/wiz damage avoidance tanks). The possibilities are endless, it just wouldn't accomplish much if it fell into the same category of what alchs can already do.

That sounds like you're just dialing EK up to 11 then. That's where Sorc defense abilities are...if you think they need more then just plug them in there.

Teleport abilities are iffy because what exactly do they do? The game isnt really set up to support that kind of gameplay. Its either so weak or situational that its pointless....or its strong enough to break the AI and create unintended applications, like skipping quest paths.

[Somebody87]

Um...cast Sorc spells? Be EKs?

Not be beholden to clunky Admixture targeting?

Wizards make much stronger EK's for several reasons and then every other melee class makes them both look incompetent by comparison (barbs, pallys). Not to mention the damage is inevitably far lower than a full caster.

That sounds like you're just dialing EK up to 11 then. That's where Sorc defense abilities are...if you think they need more then just plug them in there.

Teleport abilities are iffy because what exactly do they do? The game isnt really set up to support that kind of gameplay. Its either so weak or situational that its pointless....or its strong enough to break the AI and create unintended applications, like skipping quest paths.

I was just listing off ideas for things sorcerers could do that alchemists can't.

• Solid tanking ability would make sorcerers less squishy than alchs which would be a fun reason to play sorcerers instead (get strong survivability in exchange for heals)
• Teleporting your party members to you and vice versa IS intended to skip quest paths. It is meant to make sorcerers more useful.
• Intense single target damage would be doing something no other caster can do. Alchs could match the aoe but not the single target damage which matters for cutting down bosses, Dooms and near-Veng mobs.

The entire point of this post is to make sure every class has a niche that is not completely encompassed by another class. Right now sorcerers are the only class to be in that situation.

Any other questions?

[janave]

Some interesting ideas so far, thanks.



Power Words, Symbols, and other HD limited spells are currently not too popular. IMO, Some unique tree enhancements could be dedicated to make these spell categories look better. Prismatic Spells used to be really good for fishing instas past Deathward, ( < U34) but are less useful now.

Current Improved Metamagic enhancements are about cost reductions only, so there is quite some room there.

Debuff spells are rarely used these days, stuff that extends the ability/level drain, or stops their regeneration might be good enhancements to expand on.

I don't see a lot of builds using: Combat Casting and Mobile Spellcasting feats, these aren't necessarily bad, but other feats are quasi mandatory or offer largely better value for the limited choices after the must haves.

I could see something like Improved Combat Casting in enhancements, offering a quasi Quicken replacement.

I would very much like an Enchanter focused tree either for Sorc or Universal. I've seen more than one Enchantress in PnP be a sorc, charisma based, sometimes a tiefling, sometimes a half-elf, just oozing charm and beauty. Not my last group but the campaign before had a guy imitating a southern belle for his enchantress... oh it was awful... but it was funny. Shades of Gone with the Wind.

I like the Enchanter suggestion, unfortunately charms are not very popular in groups, killing fast is preferred to them. I could however see a new game mechanic opportunity here that is sort of implemented in some degree already: Dismiss Charm is an auto grant, Sorcerers and Wizards could get a Mass Dismiss Charm version, inside the callback of this spell, Devs could wire additional effects, debuffs, spell triggers. So Mass charming and mass dismiss charming could be used together as both a CC tactic and also some interesting spell/effect combos.

Fear spells have a similarly bad rep for sending monsters all over the place, there could be an enhancement specifically that Feared mobs are also pinned to place (different school but Mind Affecting main cat. so it would sorta fit into an Enchanter specific tree).