Arch mage and sorcs

[droid327]

it takes a certain int score to understand what he was alluding to specifically?

Oh I see we have a Rick and Morty fan here

[Vish]

lol. i'll own up to trying out at least half a dozen "tilo" builds over the past 4 or 5 years. none of them were unimaginative. almost all of them were multi-class. and not one of them conformed to the pigeon list he just rattled off. perhaps he was responding in a specific way, to a specific point, and it takes a certain int score to understand what he was alluding to specifically?

Derps just living up to his name

I think the frustration there are generally one best option per class
It makes it simpler, there’s lotta working parts outside the trinity
But the reality is there is like 45 options not just 16
There is always heroic
In epic you find what really works
Then at the top you exploit what they’ve missed (unintended consequences and all that)

Everybody’s got their favorite,
And want it to be at the top

[ggmarquez]

Derps just living up to his name

:-)

I think the frustration there are generally one best option per class

yes. and which fotm is on top changes. if they do get around to an arch-mage revamp, who among us would ever bet against it being OP and the next new thing? when the PM pass happened, undead came out ahead.

Everybody’s got their favorite, And want it to be at the top

indeed. and how long will arch-mage have it's day? how long did wolf sit above bear? how long was vanguard king of dps? etc. etc.
play for fun, or play the meta... but if you ever get both, it won't be for long. never is.

[Tilomere]

You quite nicely missed my point entirely there. I don't have to play high difficulty content, but I want to do so. And in order to do so, I have only one truly viable option available to me as I stick to Wizard on my main rather than TR'ing constantly into whatever build/class/race has the most DPS this week.

So change the paradigm you play under if you want different options. You can walk into legendary reaper at level 20, even solo if you want, so the content is highly difficult, but with additional and sometimes different working options. I ran a shiradi caster build like that recently, and archmage is the traditional shiradi caster base. I don't see why you can't do the same with archmage.

[AbyssalMage]

Sorc pass? Really? In what universe do sorcs need an enhancement pass?

In our universe (in case that wasn't obvious to you).
They need all 4 elements combined into a single tree.
Core 1 - Pick your element
Core 2 through 5 - Your element gets (+10) stronger and complimentary elements get (+5) stronger. Cumulative 2% chance of your element doubling in damage per cast (per core). + 1 Level when caster level your element. +1 for complimentary element in every other core. Cumulative 1% chance of your complimentary elements doubling in damage per cast (per core).

Now they have freed up three tree's (what ever element you didn't choose). Now you can make a tree that explores one of the other PrE's in 3.5 D&D.

See! They need a pass. Because copy/paste should be used tactically.

They already trivialise all content lower than r4. So unless for the first time a 'pass' means nerfs - like maybe, I don't know...just pulling stuff out of the air here...an internal cooldown on immunity bypass, and a longer cooldown on meteor swarm - I don't think it should happen and I don't think it will.

They trivialize content when their DC's are high enough. Not every player successfully gets their DC's that high. More importantly, they need to nerf Reaper Tree's long before they nerf any more classes.

It would be great if archmage could get a pass though. That tree is utterly dead.

This we can agree on. They have been promising this one since MotU update long ago. The only reason it probably isn't a priority is Sorc and PM are both solid options.

[FlavoredSoul]

In our universe (in case that wasn't obvious to you).
They need all 4 elements combined into a single tree.
Core 1 - Pick your element
Core 2 through 5 - Your element gets (+10) stronger and complimentary elements get (+5) stronger. Cumulative 2% chance of your element doubling in damage per cast (per core). + 1 Level when caster level your element. +1 for complimentary element in every other core. Cumulative 1% chance of your complimentary elements doubling in damage per cast (per core).

Now they have freed up three tree's (what ever element you didn't choose). Now you can make a tree that explores one of the other PrE's in 3.5 D&D.

See! They need a pass. Because copy/paste should be used tactically.


They trivialize content when their DC's are high enough. Not every player successfully gets their DC's that high. More importantly, they need to nerf Reaper Tree's long before they nerf any more classes.

This we can agree on. They have been promising this one since MotU update long ago. The only reason it probably isn't a priority is Sorc and PM are both solid options.

I agree that Sorc should get elemental trees combined and a new third PRE, while they're doing it those weird T5 abilities that have useless Dcs should be updated to actually work properly.

I think people see Sorcs doing well and think "sorc doesn't need a pass" but really Sorcs trees are horrible, boring, and pretty outdated, it's the base class's strength (arcane spellbook is strong, sorc cast speed/cooldowns are stronger) that makes up.

Of course Archmage and Bows need passes far more urgently because they're in a much worse spot, but that doesn't make the savant trees well designed.

As an aside; I feel like this forum's views on balance are often a year or so behind reality, Sorcs really aren't particularly overpowered right now unless you're a first lifer getting carried through R1-4 by a maxed optimized Sorc. The current flavors of the month are Fire Alchemists, Throwers, several different THF builds, and maybe inquisitive (throwers are better at the highest levels of optimization.) Meanwhile people are still complaining about Sorcs, and I even saw someone a few months ago complaining about Enlightened Spirit warlocks being OP like they were living 4 years in the past.

[janave]

I think people see Sorcs doing well and think "sorc doesn't need a pass" but really Sorcs trees are horrible, boring, and pretty outdated, it's the base class's strength (arcane spellbook is strong, sorc cast speed/cooldowns are stronger) that makes up.

Of course Archmage and Bows need passes far more urgently because they're in a much worse spot, but that doesn't make the savant trees well designed.
.

Exactly. Savant trees add a small bump at 30, it is easy to decode what does the carry:

• On cast: Automatic Immunity breaker ( super borifying feature, also OP, essentially bypassing the single greatest limitation of Savant builds with no thought or effort)
• Fire Scion (The crit damage should be distributed more intelligently with other element Scions)
• LGS ( still grindy to get, a little less after a recent update )
• Meteor Cooldown being much shorter, multi proc, double range, aoe, and no sava component with the best spell power + gear scaling in the game ( limits building dual Savants)
• Gear numbers, most of the spell power coming from gear, best dps gear => best defense gear.
• New Race options: Dragonborn and Tiefling far ahead of anything else
• Reaper Trees ( mostly the HP padding, dodge, prr and reflexes )
• EK and Uni tree defensive buff fixations, EK front loads quite a bit of the defense.

* bolded is achieved by grinds and has nothing to do with the Savant trees..

Savant trees also feature:
* Several little AP eaters that do nothing meaningful...at any stage of the game
* Massive negatives in the Capstones
* Almost zero utility
* No spell point increase, unlike Wizard trees
* Little Spell pen, +1
* Little DCs, +1 Evo DC ( good luck hitting DC55+ saving evasion mobs in late heroic, eg: No Refunds/Smash and Burn.. )
* Negative caster levels on decent spells, if trying to build dual Savants
* Negative spell power on decent spells, if dual Savant
* Very little defense ( GOOD, Arcane casters are traditionally squishy, unlike the godmode tank PM builds )
* Outdated T5 actives, DCs based on Constitution, riiight
* SLA line is useless into late epics. ( this one is maybe acceptable, but the T5s should be useful later )
* No threat reduction, `hello 1st life soul stones in raids who are trying to "help"..

^Already nerfed hard because some cannot decode the simplest of correlations, all being outside of the enhancement trees themselves. "Hey lets reduce the spell dps by reducing the ONLY feature making Savants unique", fix later with more generic scaler boost until we get cosmetic classes of the homogenic "DOESDAMAGE" build.

[niknight]

I agree that Sorc should get elemental trees combined and a new third PRE, while they're doing it those weird T5 abilities that have useless Dcs should be updated to actually work properly.

I think people see Sorcs doing well and think "sorc doesn't need a pass" but really Sorcs trees are horrible, boring, and pretty outdated, it's the base class's strength (arcane spellbook is strong, sorc cast speed/cooldowns are stronger) that makes up.

Of course Archmage and Bows need passes far more urgently because they're in a much worse spot, but that doesn't make the savant trees well designed.

As an aside; I feel like this forum's views on balance are often a year or so behind reality, Sorcs really aren't particularly overpowered right now unless you're a first lifer getting carried through R1-4 by a maxed optimized Sorc. The current flavors of the month are Fire Alchemists, Throwers, several different THF builds, and maybe inquisitive (throwers are better at the highest levels of optimization.) Meanwhile people are still complaining about Sorcs, and I even saw someone a few months ago complaining about Enlightened Spirit warlocks being OP like they were living 4 years in the past.

After bows, I would prioritize in order:

1. A complete spell overhaul that makes low level damage spells useful options at cap, gives divine nukers some love, and changes the scaling on some spells (cough, energy resistance, cough) to actually be useful in modern content.
2. Overall changes to the base arcane classes, giving each a defined niche of things that they do better than any other arcane class. Since the introduction of FDI, Sorc's relationship to Wizard can best be described as "anything you can do, I can do better".
3. Changes to Archmage, Enlightened Spirit (the tree really needs a coherent identity, not a mish-mash of whatever didn't belong somewhere else), combining Savants (and a potential 3rd Sorc tree), and a touch up of Swash.
4. Destinies
5. Level cap increase

[tinyelvis]

You quite nicely missed my point entirely there. I don't have to play high difficulty content, but I want to do so. And in order to do so, I have only one truly viable option available to me as I stick to Wizard on my main rather than TR'ing constantly into whatever build/class/race has the most DPS this week.

I held on to Archmage long after most other players because the DnD lore part of my brain isn't a huge fan of being undead, but then Sharn with it's insane saves and heavy hitters came along and kind of sank the last decrepit remnants of the Archmage ship.

DDO is a game that is often noted for it's vast range of character customisation options; but this does not always extend to the enhancement trees (particularly for pure builds, as Wizards very often tend to be). So many of them have no notable downside - Fire Sorc, and Alchemists too of course, to use two of your examples (a Fire Elemental being damaged by fire seems so terribly illogical to me, but there we are). At least Pale Masters are almost useless against some things (I'm looking at you again, Sharn, with your constructs). But that tangent belongs in another thread.

To summarise: variety is good, and having more of it would not be a bad thing!

What about the illusionist? I do believe you can push your illusion DC higher than Necro with race buffs as well as those in the new tree. Permanent enlarge, extra color spray. Dont ask me why but you also get force buffs and three new force SLA's (with illusion DC's ???). Certainly these and the extra intel buff any Arch mage.

Honestly, I don't see why the force and charisma buffs were put in this tree, but I like that they made it universal. In effect, it's the first sorcerer buff to hit the game in 10 years (I use this tree and take color spray and eternal enlarge on all casters). They should have added an area of effect illusion cc or death spell as well as other illusions... say project image? The force stuff should have been put in it's own tree. Hell, they should have just made a tree for each school of magic. And the charisma stuff should have been put in a sorcerer/bard based universal tree. But beggars cant be choosers.