Hirelings vs Taming the Flames

[Necroconvict]

So hireling AI isn't the best in the first place. But in this specific quest they are like lemmings, constantly diving into whatever lava they can sink into, including diving in so deep you can't get their stone back. This can't be the first complaint. I know there's some stuff going on, other stuff right now... but seriously. It's just sad.

[Buddha5440]

I heard a rumor that the head of the Hirelings Union was actually a member of the 'Lava Divers' in a past life and, due to a head wound, is having trouble letting go

-Obviously no offense meant to the guild. Any time I have run with any of them it has been great.

But, since hireling AI has been horrible for roughly... well, forever.. don't hold your breath.

[Saekee]

when I saw the thread title, I thought the OP would be:

Hirelings: 0, Taming the Flames: 2,763 and counting


Biggest trouble with hirelings is that none are decent multiclasses. Some of them really need evasion. If you take a hireling into Taming the Flames, I recommend you cast resist fire on them.

[Seph1roth5]

Soooo not specific to taming the flames. My hirelings die way more often in quests with a small hazard lol, like fire caves. With taming the flames I'm much more aware of leaving my hireling on park.

[Necroconvict]

when I saw the thread title, I thought the OP would be:

Hirelings: 0, Taming the Flames: 2,763 and counting


Biggest trouble with hirelings is that none are decent multiclasses. Some of them really need evasion. If you take a hireling into Taming the Flames, I recommend you cast resist fire on them.

We do, but they will fall into lava pits where we can't recover their stones. Brought them back to the shrine like 5 times the last time we did the dungeon. We rarely do it.. because of this problem, and there are others as well. This just seems like one, a lot of people have had problems with. Rather memorable.

[C-Dog]

The problem is that you're expecting the healers to be in-combat healers - and they're just not. Sometimes you can get away with it, but most of the time you're inviting them to ring the big *DING*.

If you're going to use hires, then you have to either learn to always park them somewhere safe and use them for after-combat* healing, or be willing/able to raise them yourself. Just that simple.

(* If you park them on Active, FAR away from any tempting targets or respawns, then you might be able to summon them if a battle is going badly, and they might wake up and heal your dying butt. But it's much better to become a better player and learn to run away if a fight is going badly - fall back, find a safe spot, call the hire, heal, and dive back in.

Or have a high enough UMD to use RD scrolls on your hire - that works too. )

[Necroconvict]

The problem is that you're expecting the healers to be in-combat healers - and they're just not. Sometimes you can get away with it, but most of the time you're inviting them to ring the big *DING*.

If you're going to use hires, then you have to either learn to always park them somewhere safe and use them for after-combat* healing, or be willing/able to raise them yourself. Just that simple.

(* If you park them on Active, FAR away from any tempting targets or respawns, then you might be able to summon them if a battle is going badly, and they might wake up and heal your dying butt. But it's much better to become a better player and learn to run away if a fight is going badly - fall back, find a safe spot, call the hire, heal, and dive back in.

Or have a high enough UMD to use RD scrolls on your hire - that works too. )

So you think.. that they aren't combat healers... we're hiring Brother Jan, who has never left the convent before.. so nearly his first instinct is to jump into a lake of lava? You think that is the problem? That's fine make excuses for "unfortunate" programing errors, or laziness.

[Necroconvict]

In general these hirelings are what level 7-10, so they've done a lot to get to this level. As a favored soul, cleric, fighter, or other. They aren't first level hirelings that decided on Tuesday they were going to stop building dog houses, or listen to confessions. They've got to be a little seasoned at this point. I don't think anyone expects a hireling that can solo R10. Simply one that when it sees you roast in a fire trap, it doesn't rush in behind you, or dive into a lava pool so deep that you can not revive it. They aren't lemmings.

[C-Dog]

You think that is the problem? That's fine make excuses for "unfortunate" programing errors, or laziness.

Never said anything of the kind, not remotely (and someone would have to work hard to misconstrue such, but whatever).

AI pathing is far from perfect (altho' it used to be SO much worse!), but that's not a "problem", that's just the state of things. The problem is that some players can't seem to wrap their heads around that simple fact or themselves are too lazy to take simple precautions to account for it. I don't rely on AI pathing, so I don't have a problem with them. "Problem" doesn't need to be "solved", because it never arises as an issue.

It's a matter of perspective - I see them as "limited", you see them as "flawed". Same description, different expectations.

But you go ahead and use them in combat, and deny the obvious solution, and we'll see who gets healed more.

[Valerianus]

thanks a lot, you gave me an idea for a meme for the meme thread

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I've lost many Cleric / Favoured Soul Hirelings due to their behaviour to want to melee fight the fire elementals in those lava pools.
Even if I order them to stop and place their flags where they stand, they often try that.

And if there are more than one Hireling, then they often try to both heal each other & fight the fire elementals at the same time.

[TeacherSyn]

There are some quests where you are challenged as the player, where numbers in party don't count, but strategy.
"Taming the Flames" is among one of many quests I hear moans from other players when I suggest playing it.

Reasons for this are simple, and it's not the only quest in game, naturally, where players lament and gnash their teeth.

• You didn't prepare before entering.
  
  This quest is filled with ever-respawning fire elementals and has precisely one shrine, of which you must battle to reach. You MUST have a Cold effect weapon that's durable (fire loves wooden weapons). You should have good fire resistance and/or absorption. Good luck getting the required key in the fiery pit area without Feather Fall, some Jump, and fire resistance.
  
  
• You're too dependent on your hireling(s).
  
  While DDO is based on D&D and quests are built so that party skills and cooperation are important, a hireling is, at best, 1/2 of a player character. They don't think. They can't prepare extra weapons, come with often the most inappropriate one, and will commit suicide because of your very presence near powerful enemies. Playing Monks dominantly, I don't even think of going into that quest without the capacity to self-heal. Shintao/Light Monks can do this well enough, but for a Ninja Spy, I wait until I unlock Stealthy tier 3 (adds +1 passive ki regeneration while sneaking) and have Wholeness of Body to heal back to full health periodically and indefinitely on ki alone. And then, I sneak like hell as much as I can; in many quests, sneaking prevents activation of some enemies. I often bring in a Cleric hireling but park them for 80% of the quest, summoning them to assist in the mephit/earth elemental fight by the passage leading to the key needed to kill more mephits near the NPC to be rescued (also the location of the only shrine). "Flames" requires you to be fast and durable enough against fire and swarms. It's honestly a good test for your toon's resilience and of your gameplay. You can't just bludgeon your way through it before depleting something.
  
  
• You're underestimating the quest difficulty.
  
  Because of the respawns and the single shrine, "Flames" should not be taken at all lightly. Forget your blindness immunity or potions and you're at the mercy of the air mephits. No fire resistance is death. Too few potions is death. Don't enter that quest until the quest difficulty level at least matches your character level and/or skill.

Playing Monks with their self-healing and evasion isn't an "easy button" for that quest. And there are some classes that may fare worse or better in there. But as in pretty much everything outside of a raid, often quests like this, "Stealthy Repossession," high-XP-by-stealth quests like "Blockade Buster" and mob-rich death quests like "What Goes Up" needs brain power, not brawn.

[Rauven]

I would just like it if hirelings learnt to actually stop for traps. Not jumping in lava, or acid...that would be some kind of witchcraft.

[Buddha5440]

I would just like it if hirelings learnt to actually stop for traps.

They are simply doing what they see players doing ... I long ago stopped expecting people to wait for me to disarm any traps and have been kicked out of groups after quests for 'holding up progress' when I do stop to disable them.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I just wondered whether it would make sense to cast this on Hirelings ? https://ddowiki.com/page/Fire_Shield

This would also be nice if cast on a Hireling : https://ddowiki.com/page/Elemental_Weapons
Sadly it's only available for Artificers & Alchemists ...

So, this means that casters have a few more tools available, except if wands are used, but they need UMD ...

[HungarianRhapsody]

I would just like it if hirelings learnt to actually stop for traps. Not jumping in lava, or acid...that would be some kind of witchcraft.

My hirelings stop for traps most of the time.

They walk up to the trap and then stop once they're in it.

[C-Dog]

thanks a lot, you gave me an idea for a meme for the meme thread

Heh, reminded of "back in the day", bringing a hireling into Searing Heights, the drow/lava area. Original lava divers.

[DAVIDARC]

There are some quests where you are challenged as the player, where numbers in party don't count, but strategy.
"Taming the Flames" is among one of many quests I hear moans from other players when I suggest playing it.

Reasons for this are simple, and it's not the only quest in game, naturally, where players lament and gnash their teeth.

• You didn't prepare before entering.
  
  This quest is filled with ever-respawning fire elementals and has precisely one shrine, of which you must battle to reach. You MUST have a Cold effect weapon that's durable (fire loves wooden weapons). You should have good fire resistance and/or absorption. Good luck getting the required key in the fiery pit area without Feather Fall, some Jump, and fire resistance.
  
  
• You're too dependent on your hireling(s).
  
  While DDO is based on D&D and quests are built so that party skills and cooperation are important, a hireling is, at best, 1/2 of a player character. They don't think. They can't prepare extra weapons, come with often the most inappropriate one, and will commit suicide because of your very presence near powerful enemies. Playing Monks dominantly, I don't even think of going into that quest without the capacity to self-heal. Shintao/Light Monks can do this well enough, but for a Ninja Spy, I wait until I unlock Stealthy tier 3 (adds +1 passive ki regeneration while sneaking) and have Wholeness of Body to heal back to full health periodically and indefinitely on ki alone. And then, I sneak like hell as much as I can; in many quests, sneaking prevents activation of some enemies. I often bring in a Cleric hireling but park them for 80% of the quest, summoning them to assist in the mephit/earth elemental fight by the passage leading to the key needed to kill more mephits near the NPC to be rescued (also the location of the only shrine). "Flames" requires you to be fast and durable enough against fire and swarms. It's honestly a good test for your toon's resilience and of your gameplay. You can't just bludgeon your way through it before depleting something.
  
  
• You're underestimating the quest difficulty.
  
  Because of the respawns and the single shrine, "Flames" should not be taken at all lightly. Forget your blindness immunity or potions and you're at the mercy of the air mephits. No fire resistance is death. Too few potions is death. Don't enter that quest until the quest difficulty level at least matches your character level and/or skill.

Playing Monks with their self-healing and evasion isn't an "easy button" for that quest. And there are some classes that may fare worse or better in there. But as in pretty much everything outside of a raid, often quests like this, "Stealthy Repossession," high-XP-by-stealth quests like "Blockade Buster" and mob-rich death quests like "What Goes Up" needs brain power, not brawn.

More to think about. Have been playing a little less than a year and learning the hard way being a higher level than the quest does not always succeed. Even with full set of hierlings. Sometimes spectacularly so .