Do rogues benefit from Sneak of Shadows?

[brian14]

Sounds almost too good to be true:

You have +1 to all skills and three times per rest you can skulk with the skill of your past life, gaining bonuses equal to your level to your hide and move silently skills, a +1 bonus to sneak attack damage for every two character levels after first, and a +1 bonus to hit with sneak attacks for every four levels.

So a level 20 rogue gets +20 to hide and move silently for one minute three times per rest?

Also, can someone point me to a good DEX-based two-weapons elf rogue build?

[slarden]

Yes rogues definitely benefit, but it's ess impactful since some of the changes to stealth and now with reaper mode.

A typical dex assassin build has 41 points in the assassin tree, 21-29 points in thief acrobat and the rest in vistani knife fighter. Some dex build splash harper for KTA, but KTA doesn't stack with insightful deadly or insightful combat mastery so it depends on gear and how high your int is.

[C-Dog]

Yes rogues definitely benefit, but it's ess impactful since some of the changes to stealth and now with reaper mode.

Right. A lot of Champions/Reapers/mobs/Bosses have ridiculously high Spot/Listen rolls (as well as True Seeing vs. Invisibility). Some mobs (e.g. Spiders, Scorpions) have "Tremor sense", which detects walking - you can hide in place, but once you start moving you're done.

And in some cases, it seems that it's just broken - no amount of Stealth will win. :/

So while it's very good, it's not as all-powerful as it might seem.

[grohgredin]

Yes rogues definitely benefit, but it's ess impactful since some of the changes to stealth and now with reaper mode.

A typical dex assassin build has 41 points in the assassin tree, 21-29 points in thief acrobat and the rest in vistani knife fighter. Some dex build splash harper for KTA, but KTA doesn't stack with insightful deadly or insightful combat mastery so it depends on gear and how high your int is.

Not 100 % true...

If you want more defense you can go to 31 points in Acrobat to reach 48 % dodge with a halflin. Or more Offense and go more deeper in Vistani. Depend on gameplay etc...For Kta, depend if you like to use Dire charge, if you have ins combat mastery, if you will have or not a better bonus than the one brought with ins deadly...

[NemesisAlien]

Right. A lot of Champions/Reapers/mobs/Bosses have ridiculously high Spot/Listen rolls (as well as True Seeing vs. Invisibility). Some mobs (e.g. Spiders, Scorpions) have "Tremor sense", which detects walking - you can hide in place, but once you start moving you're done.

And in some cases, it seems that it's just broken - no amount of Stealth will win. :/

So while it's very good, it's not as all-powerful as it might seem.

Stealth is now redundant and stupid with this.

[MalarKan]

Stealth is now redundant and stupid with this.

I disagree

In my experience, “tremor sense” mobs are just a handful and also not all reapers have it. You can sneak past almost anything with 120+ sneak and move silently (which is prety easy to achieve at lvl 30, even for int based). Provided you also have a high spot as well (you dont want to bump into sneaky ones).

I do also pair the hide along with invisibility casts and a couple mechanics here and there.

Some mobs do stop following you at some point (which has been “researched” but theres no solid conclussion about it), and you can just keep sneaking while escaping and eventually the reaper who saw you will be alone with you.

[kamimitsu]

I disagree

In my experience, “tremor sense” mobs are just a handful and also not all reapers have it. You can sneak past almost anything with 120+ sneak and move silently (which is prety easy to achieve at lvl 30, even for int based). Provided you also have a high spot as well (you dont want to bump into sneaky ones).

I do also pair the hide along with invisibility casts and a couple mechanics here and there.

Some mobs do stop following you at some point (which has been “researched” but theres no solid conclussion about it), and you can just keep sneaking while escaping and eventually the reaper who saw you will be alone with you.

As an old-school sneakist and big proponent of the shadowy arts (OG Grand Poo-bah of R.O.G.U.E.), I think you hit the nail on the head with "no solid conclusions". THAT, for me at least, is the biggest problem with stealth play currently... there is almost NO consistency. Clicking on some portal doors breaks stealth, some don't. Some levers/door locks can be picked and the door opened, some require you to kill all the mobs in the area (with no indication that this criteria is required). Some reapers will automatically detect you and share your location with all of the nearby mobs, some will only teleport to you, and some will follow you like a lost puppy. Some inactive mobs can be touched without activating them, others will flare up like a hornets nest if you brush them. Some actions/attacks break stealth, others don't (often with no logic or explanation, and some even break stealth when they say they won't- like Feydark Illusionist Distract). Some mobs (spiders mostly) will chase you forever if you are sneaking, but the same ones give up after a few seconds if you are only invised but not sneaking. Some mobs will 'ping' follow you for the entire quest, raising dungeon alert with each new group they pass, and some will turn around and eventually give up once you break sight and get far enough away, and others somehow psychicly divine your location after a few seconds and switch from 'ping' to '****ed and heading straight for you'. Some mobs will happily watch they guy next to them mysteriously leak a few gallons of blood without batting an eye, and some find such phenomenon deeply enraging. This is hardly an exhaustive list.

I get that this game has a higher "learning the quest/monsters/etc." than most (which I think is generally a good thing), but there needs to be some kind of CONISISTENT INTERAL LOGIC for something as time-investing and unforgiving as stealth play. The way the game currently works, a stealther needs to basically know every mob behavior (and possible reactions) and every door or interactible in the quest and run it FLAWLESSLY or they're looking at a cascading mountain of red-alert with almost no means of recovery other than dying and resurrecting somewhere safe (and purposefully dying should seldom be a preferred tactic). And all of that is before even adding dropping Reapers into the quest and the ensuing inconsistent behaviors they throw into the mix. I'm not suggesting that stealth play needs to be EASIER, mind you, much of the appeal of it is that it is difficult and takes a certain mix of twitch skills, knowledge, patience, tactics, etc... I just wish that the rules were had to play under were internally consistent so that skill and knowledge learned in one situation would be applicable to similar future situations.

[kamimitsu]

Right. A lot of Champions/Reapers/mobs/Bosses have ridiculously high Spot/Listen rolls (as well as True Seeing vs. Invisibility). Some mobs (e.g. Spiders, Scorpions) have "Tremor sense", which detects walking - you can hide in place, but once you start moving you're done.

And in some cases, it seems that it's just broken - no amount of Stealth will win. :/

So while it's very good, it's not as all-powerful as it might seem.

Followup post to debunk this oft reported mistake: scorpions DO NOT have tremorsense in DDO. They do in pencil and paper, but not so in DDO. You can safely sneak around scorpions. In fact, two of the best quests to practice sneaking are scorpion temples (Claw of Vulkoor and Monastery of the Scorpion).

[slarden]

Not 100 % true...

If you want more defense you can go to 31 points in Acrobat to reach 48 % dodge with a halflin. Or more Offense and go more deeper in Vistani. Depend on gameplay etc...For Kta, depend if you like to use Dire charge, if you have ins combat mastery, if you will have or not a better bonus than the one brought with ins deadly...

Hence the reason I used words like "typical" and "depending on your int" because I never intended to state it applied to 100% of situations. There are many flavor builds out there.

[Haphazarduk]

It’s worth saying that, whilst stealth ‘gameplay’ is very inconsistent and unforgiving there it still much fun to be had. It’s almost a meta game in some ways but there you go. I very much doubt we’ll ever see a proper pass of stealth. There too much work and not enough upside but there are still great things to discover and immersive moments that the normal rush through content doesn’t deliver.

In particular there are some strange and interesting combinations of abilities, probably not WAI, but that none-the-less give the dedicated stealther a whole world of their own. I particularly like stealthing under level in the content where stealrhing does pay off, mostly the older quests.

Hap

[phillymiket]

Stealth was never "worth it" from any point of view except the fun factor for people like me who enjoyed it.
It takes longer, it's harder, it's *way* less XP, and you miss out on lots of loot.
Mistakes are more deadly too because there's no cleared out area to retreat to.

That said, stealth is great for certain things.
Slipping past perched archers or whatever.
The "Spies in the House" type quests where it pays big dividends were always few and far between.

The investment in skill points for stealth now is too heavy for a splash rogue, imo.
It's one of those "max points or don't bother" skills.
But if you have lots of rogue levels then you probably have lots of skill points so go for it if you want.

Spending a feat on extra stealth, however, seems highly questionable to me no matter how good the clicky is.
Decent Dex, max ranks in Hide and MS, plus a stealth item to swap in as needed is plenty for the old content.
And most new content is designed with mobs blocking hallways etc that prevents stealth no matter how good.

Get max ranks if you want to stealth for fun and can spare the points but don't expect to make a living out of it anymore.
But don't get the feat. (imo)

[Kmnh]

I use it mostly for the to-hit and damage.

It doesn't do much for heroic questing, is decent for epic, and it is really good for legendary endgame.

[MalarKan]

... And most new content is designed with mobs blocking hallways etc that prevents stealth no matter how good.

Sometimes, my strategy is:
1. Invisibility scroll
2. Activate Sneak
3. Aproach
4. Stand where you want to lure them guards
5. Deactivate Sneak
6. Move just a “click” (red bleep appears)
7. Activate Sneak again
8. Move away
9. Watch the guards aproach as they lose their post looking for the source of the sound (red bleep)
10. Sneak past them and carry on... or kill them, up to whatever was your objective

NOTE: this is just “Noisemakers” with extra steps (and no noisemakers)
NOTE’: might not work on true seeing/see invisibility mobs.
NOTE”: some mobs dont spot you even if you bump on them while sneaking+invisible. Why? Just a little more inconsistencies to be added to the sneaking investigation