Int vs Dex Based for Melee?

[Khurse]

HI all
Sure I saw this discussion here, but can't find it, so...

Planning on TRing into a rogue for endgame DPS shenanigans.

Toon will probably be Aasimar ,maybe Human.

Is there any real differences between going Int vs Dex?
Only things I can see are
Int makes it one stat you have to gear for, but costs a feat (insightful reflex) needs a few more points in Harper,

Dex is a little easier to gear for (especially with Feywild) ,saves the feat, and is "better" for my reaper points as I can get some Dex in the melee tree.

Anything major I'm missing?

[GeoffWatson]

HI all
Sure I saw this discussion here, but can't find it, so...

Planning on TRing into a rogue for endgame DPS shenanigans.

Toon will probably be Aasimar ,maybe Human.

Is there any real differences between going Int vs Dex?
Only things I can see are
Int makes it one stat you have to gear for, but costs a feat (insightful reflex) needs a few more points in Harper,

Dex is a little easier to gear for (especially with Feywild) ,saves the feat, and is "better" for my reaper points as I can get some Dex in the melee tree.

Anything major I'm missing?

Which epic destiny?

[Khurse]

Which epic destiny?

Shadowdancer.

[VinoeWhines]

Shadowdancer.

Short answer:

DEX: Higher chance for survivability.

INT: Higher chance for DPS.

Result: Both work in Reaper End Game, the question is can you work a Rogue. (not you directly but person wielding one)





A completionist that doesn't understand a class will never play it's potential....

[Stoner81]

I prefer INT based personally since it powers your trapping skills, Know the Angles and affects the amount of skill points you get, now sure skill points aren't not exactly lacking on a Rogue but I like as many as possible

It annoys me no end that the devs didn't put any(?) INT at all in to any of the Reaper trees

Stoner81.

[Soulfurnace]

It annoys me no end that the devs didn't put any(?) INT at all in to any of the Reaper trees

Located right beside cha and wisdom

[VinoeWhines]

What really sucks the big warangas is that there is no Assassinate DC bonus' to rogues in the Reaper Tree's or throw any splintered bone DC's in Trapmaking damage/DC, Search, Disable, Spot, Sneak, Move Silently, Bluff, Diplo, Sneak Attack or Greater Improve Deception.

Again when Sharn came out 80% of my gear was for Casters just to keep up on INT baselines.
As if multiclassing to Wizard was being forced in order to fully take advantage of gear.

[C-Dog]

Int helps all your trapping except Open Lock, Dex helps that. At end game, there are a (very) few quests that need crazy high trapping values, but most(!) should be fine either way.

If Insightful Ref's is a problem squeezing in, consider going non-pure 18/2 for 1-2 more Feats (and/or Barb kiting speed). The Core 20 capstones are nice, but none are a must-have.

Beyond that, as said above, all depends if you're going w/ Harper Tree. If so, Int - if not, Dex is pro'ly better.

GL!

[VinoeWhines]

Int helps all your trapping except Open Lock, Dex helps that. At end game, there are a (very) few quests that need crazy high trapping values, but most(!) should be fine either way.

If Insightful Ref's is a problem squeezing in, consider going non-pure 18/2 for 1-2 more Feats (and/or Barb kiting speed). The Core 20 capstones are nice, but none are a must-have.

Beyond that, as said above, all depends if you're going w/ Harper Tree. If so, Int - if not, Dex is pro'ly better.

GL!

Now with a +4 Artifact DEX in a Colorless augment slot, DEX is pushing itself further up the ladder as must have only choice. But INT still has a few tricks up it's sleave.....but those sleaves might get cut off soon.......soon....

[slarden]

One is not better than the other - they are just different and you need to choose what to prioritize.

Int is the best single-target dps for an assassin due to KTA and for the same reason the best dire charge DC possible. You can likely find and disable any item in the game with no need for swap trapping gear.

Dex will spend more in thief acrobat for the extra dex, more dodge and dodge cap, 30% helpless damage and knockdown immunity and you save a feat slot.

As hard as gear tetris is let's assume a dex build can't fit in enough int for kta without sacrificing something important. This means most likely a +8 insightful deadly item. With 110 int that's a +50 multiplier and a +25 KTA bonus to tactics and damage compared to gear of +11 insightful DC for tactics and +8 deadly.

That's 17 extra damage and +14 Dire Charge DC before factoring in any multipliers, debuffing, etc. That # will go up or down depending on int.

I view 8 points in thief acrobat mandatory even for an int build for the run speed and threat reduction so basically a dex build is spending a min of 13 points more on acrobat for more dodge, dex and knockdown immunity and probably 3 more for 30% helpless damage. An Int build is spending 12 on harper for int to hit/damage and KTA.

As a side note I view the 30% helpless damage as overvalued by the community for an assassin except when soloing. It doesn't help with red names including doom reapers. You can assassinate most anything super dangerous so it only really is of value on helpless enemies you can't assassinate which are really no threat because they are helpless and in my experience go down fast anyhow. In my experience those enemies are dead so fast in a group anyhow it's not going to be super impactful.

Soloing is different of course and the helpless damage boost makes more sense with AOE damage such as THF and Casting where you get more out of it.

[Archfae]

As hard as gear tetris is let's assume a dex build can't fit in enough int for kta without sacrificing something important. This means most likely a +8 insightful deadly item. With 110 int that's a +50 multiplier and a +25 KTA bonus to tactics and damage compared to gear of +11 insightful DC for tactics and +8 deadly.

That's 17 extra damage and +14 Dire Charge DC before factoring in any multipliers, debuffing, etc. That # will go up or down depending on int.

Gear tetris isn't a problem. KTA and trances in general all key off stats at the time you apply the trance. So all you have to do is swap our int item in and out to get the bonus. Then swap back normal gear. Leg Collective Sight is a great option for this. For a lower budget one, a simple lgs stat stick can get you pretty good mileage if you don't want to farm the leg collective sight. AND there are gearing and stat disadvantages to going int based simply because int based gear doesn't key to dps most of the time.

Int definitely has a higher dire charge dc. I'm not sure, which has a higher dps all things considered. Though it becomes easier to compare when you have 2 side by side builds to compare. On a last note, you can get a 20% threat reduction augment now, so I think you really only need 3 points in acrobat for run speed at a minimum (though more threat reduction the better especially if you pug).

[C-Dog]

Gear tetris isn't a problem. KTA and trances in general all key off stats at the time you apply the trance. So all you have to do is swap our int item in and out to get the bonus...

...every 2 minutes. (Or less if you're being cheap and don't put all 3 AP in KtA).

Sounds like a problem to me. But that's just me. Just sayin'.

[Archfae]

...every 2 minutes. (Or less if you're being cheap and don't put all 3 AP in KtA).

Sounds like a problem to me. But that's just me. Just sayin'.

If swapping out gear every 2 minutes is a problem, ddo might be the wrong game to play. I have it at 7 points so its every minute, and I keep it up for pretty much all the time though there's some qroups where we are steamrolling content anyways so i don't bother.

But if you are afraid to swap gear around to get useful buffs, you'll miss out on so much (dr bypasses, displacement clickies, dw clickies, spell absorb, better self healing, etc.). Especially given how much dead time there is in between fights. Though I will agree it has become more annoying since they added the delay to equipment swaps, but it isn't annoying enough to justify railroading yourself into int based assassin.

[C-Dog]

I have it at 7 points so its every minute, and I keep it up for pretty much all the time

Well, you're an animal. I hope you'll forgive those who enjoy playing DDO in other ways than you play.

If swapping out gear every 2 minutes is a problem, ddo might be the wrong game to play.

Or you might want to gear so you don't HAVE to swap. Which gets us back to the original point.

[kamimitsu]

Dex... it's a no-brainer!

::waits for the groans::

Thank you. I'll be here all week. Try the veal, and remember to tip your waitstaff!

[slarden]

Gear tetris isn't a problem. KTA and trances in general all key off stats at the time you apply the trance. So all you have to do is swap our int item in and out to get the bonus. Then swap back normal gear. Leg Collective Sight is a great option for this. For a lower budget one, a simple lgs stat stick can get you pretty good mileage if you don't want to farm the leg collective sight. AND there are gearing and stat disadvantages to going int based simply because int based gear doesn't key to dps most of the time.

Int definitely has a higher dire charge dc. I'm not sure, which has a higher dps all things considered. Though it becomes easier to compare when you have 2 side by side builds to compare. On a last note, you can get a 20% threat reduction augment now, so I think you really only need 3 points in acrobat for run speed at a minimum (though more threat reduction the better especially if you pug).

If you are putting all your level ups, epic destiny stats, enhancement stats to dex your KTA isn't good enough to justify the ap spend or the swapping. All you are doing is swapping gear for a mediocre increase in damage at the cost of AP that could be better spent elsewhere. There are many swaps that can be be helpful, but swapping for a mediocre KTA isn't one I would do.

I don't have the augment, but am assuming it works like all augments and won't stack with gear, but will stack with enhancements.

I find the threat reduction enhancement spend to be a must - not a grey area.

[Carpone]

There's no compelling reason to me to play a DEX-based Assassin. INT is superior in all ways exception Assassination DC, which I really don't care about. My group moves too quickly through reaper quests for Assassinate to be relevant.

INT gear tetris is simpler than DEX.
INT does more single target damage than DEX thanks to KtA.

I typically don't swap in an all-INT sentient jewel when refreshing KtA unless it's for raids or Feywild, because Feywild mob saves are higher than Sharn and I'm lazy.

[slarden]

There's no compelling reason to me to play a DEX-based Assassin. INT is superior in all ways exception Assassination DC, which I really don't care about. My group moves too quickly through reaper quests for Assassinate to be relevant.

INT gear tetris is simpler than DEX.
INT does more single target damage than DEX thanks to KtA.

I typically don't swap in an all-INT sentient jewel when refreshing KtA unless it's for raids or Feywild, because Feywild mob saves are higher than Sharn and I'm lazy.

I don't disagree with your assessment, but the way I would put it is that Intelligence has a higher ceiling due to KTA - the better single-target damage and Dire Charge. It's not outright better since DPS is very weak when dead. So if the defenses in Thief Acrobat help keep someone alive more it's better for that person.

Thief acrobat gives you some nice defensive abilities such as higher dodge, potentially defensive roll and knockdown immunity (which is really knockdown reduction) without having to swap to zephyr weapon. The extra feat is also a positive that can be turned into PRR, Hitpoints, Dodge Cap, etc.

On the other hand sometimes the best defense is a good offense and by that I mean if your Dire Charge is more effective it means getting hit less which can also keep you alive longer. So to the extent your dire charge is more successful as an int build with KTA it might actually prevent death more than a little more dodge, but so much depends on what you run and who you run it with.

[choco1212]

Both Int and Dex are top tier builds, and when the nerfing comes to alci's and thf, rogues will still be there hiding in the shadows as the master class

[HuneyMunster]

As hard as gear tetris is let's assume a dex build can't fit in enough int for kta without sacrificing something important. This means most likely a +8 insightful deadly item. With 110 int that's a +50 multiplier and a +25 KTA bonus to tactics and damage compared to gear of +11 insightful DC for tactics and +8 deadly.

That's 17 extra damage and +14 Dire Charge DC before factoring in any multipliers, debuffing, etc. That # will go up or down depending on int.

I view 8 points in thief acrobat mandatory even for an int build for the run speed and threat reduction so basically a dex build is spending a min of 13 points more on acrobat for more dodge, dex and knockdown immunity and probably 3 more for 30% helpless damage. An Int build is spending 12 on harper for int to hit/damage and KTA.

On Dex build outside of Reaper (Insightful 10 Int part of gear setup) with 1 item swamp my Int mod is 31 when swapped in cloak to Mantle of Dwarven Commander (18/4) non-optimal. I've currently don't have Racial Completionist back yet so missing 3 Dex and 2 Int.

In Reaper Int Mod is 34 with Remnant and Yugo potion. So KtA gives me +17 bonus to tactics and damage compared. Tensor's adds +2 Tactics and Damage for a total of +19. So Dex is not that far behind as long as you use KtA. I only spend 3 point into Acrobat as 50% filigree, Shadow Training II and Improved Feint give me all the threat reduction I need.