Devs: Please give caster bards some love

[Chacka_DDO]

Again if we're tuning caster sonic bards to something like 70% of Sorcs, what's the DPS problem there? Maybe you would prefer 65%? What's the number that makes sense to you? That's not rhetorical. What % makes sense?

**4/6... =66.67%. Maybe that's the right goal! It's a sign.

I would take a different approach, sorcerer should not be the standard I would take a wizard because he has the same casting speed so I would see wizard casting dps as average.
And I would, in general, say a bard should do together with his own songs average dps while he lifts the damage of the whole group.
Therefore a spell singer does average spell damage with his Spellsinger songs and Warchanter average weapon damage with Warchanter songs.
In a group, the bard lifts, therefore, the damage of the whole group while he falls himself behind the damage of the group members.

[Meat-Head]

i'm standing in a nightrevels challenge with a lvl 16 bard atm and i cast shout and g.shout at level 17. from spellsingers song of arcane might. with master of music and running in fatesinger it should get bumped even higher.

G. Shout might be different. Can you test regular shout? Diff spells have different max caster levels. Wiki seems to tell us G.shout is MCL 20. I was using lower level spells because it was easier to find sorc equivalents.

[Meat-Head]

I would take a different approach, sorcerer should not be the standard I would take a wizard because he has the same casting speed so I would see wizard casting dps as average.
And I would, in general, say a bard should do together with his own songs average dps while he lifts the damage of the whole group.
Therefore a spell singer does average spell damage with his Spellsinger songs and Warchanter average weapon damage with Warchanter songs.
In a group, the bard lifts, therefore, the damage of the whole group while he falls himself behind the damage of the group members.

Others brought up the sorc, so I used them to compare. But, I agree that the power of the Bard is listing the group. That's WHY they should only be 60-70% of a nuker power. The other 40+% is making the group stronger.

[ggmarquez]

G. Shout might be different. Can you test regular shout? Diff spells have different max caster levels. Wiki seems to tell us G.shout is MCL 20. I was using lower level spells because it was easier to find sorc equivalents.

yeah, it's shout sla, sonic blast sla, sonic blast spell and g.shout spell all cast at caster level 17 according to the combat log. without self-buffing the combat log doesn't mention what caster level i cast them at, i would assume 15.

[Meat-Head]

yeah, it's shout sla, sonic blast sla, sonic blast spell and g.shout spell all cast at caster level 17 according to the combat log. without self-buffing the combat log doesn't mention what caster level i cast them at, i would assume 15.

Ok. That probably puts us closer to 33% or so. So, not as bad as 25%.

[fatherpirate]

might as well say Give barbarian Casters some love.

Bards were never intended to be anything other than semi spell casters.
They were 'SUPPOST' to center on their bardic abilities, that are
very weak in DDO.

It might be better to ask DDO to make bardic abilities as useful and STRONG as
other classes special abilities.

[Meat-Head]

might as well say Give barbarian Casters some love.

Bards were never intended to be anything other than semi spell casters.
They were 'SUPPOST' to center on their bardic abilities, that are
very weak in DDO.

It might be better to ask DDO to make bardic abilities as useful and STRONG as
other classes special abilities.

I get this sentiment. But, consider a few things:

1. Barbs literally don't have SP or spells (naturally)
2. Bards literally have damaging spells
3. Isn't build diversity part of what we like about DDO? Who intended Barb/Cleric/Druid maul-wielding raging bears? It's a meta build atm. Etc.

[cru121]

Ok, so I pulled 70% and 25% out of my rear. Let's find out where they are, actually.


Let's compare Shout (lvl4) and Cone of Cold (lvl 5) and Fireball (lvl3). This isn't the only way to compare, but it may shed some light on the issue:

Shout: Emits an ear-splitting yell that does 1d3+3 sonic damage per caster level to a max of 15d3+45 at level 15 to all targets in its path. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage.

Cone of Cold: Cone of cold creates an area of extreme cold, originating at your hand and extending outward in a large cone. It drains heat, dealing 1d6+5 points of cold damage per caster level. Maximum damage 15d6+75 at caster level 15. A successful Reflex save reduces the damage by half.

Fireball: Creates a ball of fire that detonates on impact, causing an explosion of flame that deals 1d6+3 points of fire damage per caster level up to a maximum damage of 10d6+30 at caster level 10 to all targets around it.

Let's assume Pure Casters, Empower, Maximize, Intensify, and close to max spell power. Bursting damage with Wellspring of Power. I've already done a Fire SP breakdown elsewhere (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...wer?highlight=)

Let's take ~1500 as a burst damage spell power for end-game fire and cold sorcs.
From that number, we can subtract 6 (equipment), 55 cores and elemental form vs SS capstone, 65 other enh, 29 insight on equip, 202 RL belt, 60 destiny stuff, 66 filigree, and 20 other tree enh avail to sorcs

So a SS Bard can get about ~1000 max sonic spell power


Let's talk CASTER LEVELS

Fireball MCL 20 (with feat)
Cone of Cold MCL 19 with ENH
SONIC MCL 15 (can't find a way to surpass this on bard. Let me know)


FIRE SORC 20(CL)*16(sp 100base+1500)*6.5 (avg dmg dice)=2080
ICE SORC 19*16*8.5=2584
SS BARD: 15*11*5=825


BARD to FIRE: 39.6%
BARD to COLD: 31.93%


This is before crits.. It gets quite a bit worse. I'll skip that, and say that my ballpark of Bards doing about 25% of Sorcs is correct.

You have now proven that if sorcerers only had access to spell level 3 or 4, they are 30-40% more damage than bard
yeah. now try doing the math with DBF 1d6+7, MCL20
Acid Well 1d6+18, MCL20
Meteor Swarm...


Then look at all the other higher damage die spells that bards get. Oh wait, they don't get anything.

[nokowi]

It might be better to ask DDO to make bardic abilities as useful and STRONG as
other classes special abilities.

This is literally what we asked for in SSG design, and they decided to instead buff everything past everyone else without preserving what makes bard more unique.

SSG almost always combines existing effects and waters down differences between classes.

The long term effect of poor design choices (not preserving and building what is really unique for each class) is the mess of balance, in favor and out of favor builds we see today.

EVERY build would be more useful if they had things that were unique enough to alter group play and tactics.

This is how you provide variety in a game with mostly static dungeons.

[SirValentine]

Ok. Let's analyze these sentences. The first part is inaccurate. Grace was arguing what they should be able to be if they choose to focus on it. No one is saying Bard--generally as a class--should be nukers.

You're just playing word games and contradicting yourself while so doing. This whole thread started as an attempt to make over Bard into nukers, and a few others like yourself have piled onto that Bard-as-nukers sentiment. If you or the OP didn't think Bard should be nukers, this thread wouldn't exist. So quit denying you want Bards to be nukers. That is exactly what is being asked for.

You can crunch numbers and over-parse sentences all you want, but I fundamentally disagree that as a goal. Bards should not be nukers.

No one here framed it that way. But, if you want, you can.

Of course nobody who supports it is going to frame it that way.

Again if we're tuning caster sonic bards to something like 70% of Sorcs, what's the DPS problem there? Maybe you would prefer 65%? What's the number that makes sense to you? That's not rhetorical.

You might as well try asking me, "Have you stopped beating your spouse?" I'm not going to answer a question that contains inherent assumptions that I don't agree with. It's a false question. Not gonna step in that, so you take that BS elsewhere. I've already stated my position clearly; stop obfuscating. Some people want Bards to be nukers, and some don't. I'm in the latter camp. If those of you in the former group want to argue amongst yourselves about 65% versus 70% or whatever, fine, but don't pretend it's at all relevant or anything but a rhetorical game when you address such nonsense at me.

[LurkingVeteran]

You're just playing word games and contradicting yourself while so doing. This whole thread started as an attempt to make over Bard into nukers, and a few others like yourself have piled onto that Bard-as-nukers sentiment. If you or the OP didn't think Bard should be nukers, this thread wouldn't exist. So quit denying you want Bards to be nukers. That is exactly what is being asked for.

You can crunch numbers and over-parse sentences all you want, but I fundamentally disagree that as a goal. Bards should not be nukers.



Of course nobody who supports it is going to frame it that way.



You might as well try asking me, "Have you stopped beating your spouse?" I'm not going to answer a question that contains inherent assumptions that I don't agree with. It's a false question. Not gonna step in that, so you take that BS elsewhere. I've already stated my position clearly; stop obfuscating. Some people want Bards to be nukers, and some don't. I'm in the latter camp. If those of you in the former group want to argue amongst yourselves about 65% versus 70% or whatever, fine, but don't pretend it's at all relevant or anything but a rhetorical game when you address such nonsense at me.

There are several ways to balance nuking vs. other caster roles. E.g. Sorcs have low CD so can spam nukes, while Wizard has to go off-spec to do the same. Bards simply do not have enough decent DPS spells to fill a rotation, and their best ones are half as good as standard elemental Wiz spells (GShout vs. DBF) and 25% as good as Meteor. This is easy to realize just by looking at the damage dice / caster level. Spell singers should be a DC-focused class with some reliable damage as backup for immunes/reds. They clearly get damage SLAs, the problem is just that they are terrible compared to the enhanced dice of Wiz/Sorc/Alch.

[Grace_ana]

It's disingenuous for anyone to say that bards shouldn't be able to do reasonable/equitable damage with nuke spells. If they weren't supposed to, they wouldn't have spells to do so. I'd like to remind everyone that in the last spellsinger pass, a tier 5 nuke spell (horn of thunder) was ADDED. So let's not go down the rabbit hole of "bards can't have this because I don't think they should." Bards are incredibly flexible and can be played a myriad of ways, in theory. The actual practice isn't up to snuff, and that's what I am asking for.

If you don't want to play a bard that has decent damage casts, don't. But that's a different argument.

[Meat-Head]

You have now proven that if sorcerers only had access to spell level 3 or 4, they are 30-40% more damage than bard
yeah. now try doing the math with DBF 1d6+7, MCL20
Acid Well 1d6+18, MCL20
Meteor Swarm...


Then look at all the other higher damage die spells that bards get. Oh wait, they don't get anything.

Yeah. I mean, in reality, Sorc dmg is orders of magnitude above bards when you're talking lvl 8-9 spells with crits. So, it does get worse. But, even the semi-apple to apples is ugly, imo.

I guess they only get those spells for decoration? <shrugs>

[Fivetigers33]

A bard is a jack of all trades and yet master of none. They are superior in buffing and are on level with enchantment.

To flesh out shores11 comment, Bards get level 6 spells and 15 BAB. By the rules they should be roughly 2/3 of a full caster class and 3/4 of a martial class. The problem is the way DDO has them implemented they end up seriously gimped at closer to 1/5 caster (dps) and 1/2 martial (dps).

Then there's their buffs. The +4 damage from Inspire Courage was crazy awesome when the max level was 20 and finding an item with +6 Constitution was good. Nowadays their buffs aren't even icing on the cake though. That +4 damage from Inspire Courage isn't even on the radar when classes already have over +300 damage. The whole class needs a serious overhaul to be brought up to par for modern times.

[Meat-Head]

To flesh out shores11 comment, Bards get level 6 spells and 15 BAB. By the rules they should be roughly 2/3 of a full caster class and 3/4 of a martial class. The problem is the way DDO has them implemented they end up seriously gimped at closer to 1/5 caster (dps) and 1/2 martial (dps).

Then there's their buffs. The +4 damage from Inspire Courage was crazy awesome when the max level was 20 and finding an item with +6 Constitution was good. Nowadays their buffs aren't even icing on the cake though. That +4 damage from Inspire Courage isn't even on the radar when classes already have over +300 damage. The whole class needs a serious overhaul to be brought up to par for modern times.

This guy gets it.

[Chacka_DDO]

You're just playing word games and contradicting yourself while so doing. This whole thread started as an attempt to make over Bard into nukers, and a few others like yourself have piled onto that Bard-as-nukers sentiment. If you or the OP didn't think Bard should be nukers, this thread wouldn't exist. So quit denying you want Bards to be nukers. That is exactly what is being asked for.

You can crunch numbers and over-parse sentences all you want, but I fundamentally disagree that as a goal. Bards should not be nukers.



Of course nobody who supports it is going to frame it that way.



You might as well try asking me, "Have you stopped beating your spouse?" I'm not going to answer a question that contains inherent assumptions that I don't agree with. It's a false question. Not gonna step in that, so you take that BS elsewhere. I've already stated my position clearly; stop obfuscating. Some people want Bards to be nukers, and some don't. I'm in the latter camp. If those of you in the former group want to argue amongst yourselves about 65% versus 70% or whatever, fine, but don't pretend it's at all relevant or anything but a rhetorical game when you address such nonsense at me.

Well, I should not be as respectless as you so I try to tell you in a respectful way that you are objectively wrong...
An opinion is insignificant when you have no good reasons for it, for some persons who have proven themself you can assume their untold good reasons but I dont have the impression you have such good untold reasons behind your opinion.
It doesn't matter that you have the opinion bards should not be able to nuke, the fact is they get spells exactly for this purpose (sonic blast, shout, and greater shout).
Also, the fact is that spell singers get the choice to take FOUR spell-like abilities for damage (aka nukes) in addition.
This should tell you that the developer who made this has obviously the intention that a Spellsinger bard has the option to be a capable caster for damaging spells (aka nuker).
But currently, the actual damage numbers don't match those intentions, and about this lack is this thread.

[Grace_ana]

This guy gets it.

Yeah, Stratis knows bards as well as anyone and better than most, at the very least.

[nokowi]

It's disingenuous for anyone to say that bards shouldn't be able to do reasonable/equitable damage with nuke spells. If they weren't supposed to, they wouldn't have spells to do so. I'd like to remind everyone that in the last spellsinger pass, a tier 5 nuke spell (horn of thunder) was ADDED. So let's not go down the rabbit hole of "bards can't have this because I don't think they should." Bards are incredibly flexible and can be played a myriad of ways, in theory. The actual practice isn't up to snuff, and that's what I am asking for.

If you don't want to play a bard that has decent damage casts, don't. But that's a different argument.

Grace_ana,

Your arguments are good, but I shudder to think how SSG will mess this up if they do anything.

People are correct to be very wary that whatever SSG does will dilute any class differences - no matter the specifics of what you ask for.

SSS is very likely to create a meta-monstrosity any time they redesign.

Think of how far reaper came from it's original stated intention.

SSG is likely to pull the same 180 at the last minute, just like they always do.

Either way, I wish you luck in your request.

[Stales]

To flesh out shores11 comment, Bards get level 6 spells and 15 BAB. By the rules they should be roughly 2/3 of a full caster class and 3/4 of a martial class. The problem is the way DDO has them implemented they end up seriously gimped at closer to 1/5 caster (dps) and 1/2 martial (dps).

Then there's their buffs. The +4 damage from Inspire Courage was crazy awesome when the max level was 20 and finding an item with +6 Constitution was good. Nowadays their buffs aren't even icing on the cake though. That +4 damage from Inspire Courage isn't even on the radar when classes already have over +300 damage. The whole class needs a serious overhaul to be brought up to par for modern times.

As a person that plays a bard , I approve this message.

"I wish we had a bard in our group" , said nobody.

[Chacka_DDO]

Grace_ana,

Your arguments are good, but I shudder to think how SSG will mess this up if they do anything.

People are correct to be very wary that whatever SSG does will dilute any class differences - no matter the specifics of what you ask for.

SSS is very likely to create a meta-monstrosity any time they redesign.

Think of how far reaper came from it's original stated intention.

SSG is likely to pull the same 180 at the last minute, just like they always do.

Either way, I wish you luck in your request.

Yes indeed in the past they did that, they tended to clearly overdo things when they did a pass, maybe even to make players happy.
But my impression is they try to do it differently now and that's good.
Yes I'm one of those here who ask for more but I do NOT want too much, I just want that the developers recheck if a bard is able to do enough damage with their spells.
My impression is the possible spell damage is too low currently and needs some attention.
e.g. there should be items for Enhanced Sonic and I do not have the impression those items make sorcerer or wizards OP, my impression is that such items are badly need to make them able to keep up with other dps classes.