Epic Destiny Changes- Communication is Key

[Stravix]

Might be too late, by then.

Yes, I get that the Devs are talking to the PC but that group, honestly, is too small a subsection of the player-base.

I'm skeptical of both the amount and quality of the feedback you get there.

And I am skeptical of what asking the entire playerbase at once what to do with the ED system in its entirety without any real direction.

[droid327]

Yeah, no. While I may trust the forum population to be able to make slight adjustements, having them design the skeleton of a system will lead to it either being drawn every which way, or just go nowhere from the start.

The IPS chance needed to happen for the sake of future balancing potential, but the forums would never let it go through if they had the say, because (as a whole) they never want things to go down.

I'm not saying design-by-committee, no. I'm not saying let the playerbase design anything from the ground up. I'm just saying let us see the skeleton first, before they start putting the flesh on it, so we can point out "hey that's missing a leg bone and you have six fingers on the left hand and the tibia and fibula are backwards and I think that's actually a sheep rib".

Devs are ultimately in control, whatever they decide is final of course. This isnt a question of wanting the devs to cede decision-making to the playerbase. Its a question of the playerbase can provide useful information to inform the dev's decision, at a time when that information is more effective and actionable. And, as a side effect, the players will feel more enfranchised in the process (even if they ultimately dont get a vote), which will help ease the shock when things like the IPS nerf are necessary.

[LittleLexi]

I don't really see how this is a fair assessment, especially given that you heard about our planned ED changes from the announcement in which we stated we wanted to take time and iterate and do it right - the exact opposite of what this post implies :P

While you may have a point in this instance regarding the ED changes -- what droid327 said is generally how it goes. We have seen countless examples. Here's one..

Are you going to take the time to iterate and do Feydark Illusionist right? Or are we going to get a roughly-put-together, rushed enhancement tree in time for the expansion due to pressures I acknowledge aren't totally down to you? I think we all know which outcome is more likely. You(SSG) provided limited time to solicit feedback and that also inhibits yourselves from delivering something of a high quality.

[droid327]

Are you going to take the time to iterate and do Feydark Illusionist right? Or are we going to get a roughly-put-together, rushed enhancement tree in time for the expansion due to pressures I acknowledge aren't totally down to you? I think we all know which outcome is more likely. You(SSG) provided limited time to solicit feedback and that also inhibits yourselves from delivering something of a high quality.

Yes, a lot of the feedback on FI that we've been discussing on Lama is entirely conceptual - all we needed to see was the patch notes for most of the changes that were ultimately implemented, that all could've happened weeks (I assume) ago once the design was decided, and we could've gone to the first preview already iterated to where we are on the third preview now. Save man-days of coder work since all you needed to was type up the forum post to get the ball rolling.

And that's how it usually goes for Lama previews too. A lot of theorycraft on the forums before things are actually ready to playtest (by which time the preview has likely already closed...). The devs have actually grumbled about that before - not wanting to post item stats because it makes players just discuss the theorycraft in the forums rather than go and 'actually test them' - but thats mostly because they still need to be theorycrafted more before they're ready to playtest.

I dont think FI is being rushed out before its ready, but I do think the whole process could've been streamlined a little more by having player feedback incorporated before code starts hitting the keys.

[Eantarus]

We will, when we're ready.

Might be too late, by then.

This.

You don't need to ask the entire community what to do, just throw out a few non-cryptic facts about what sorts of changes are being planned. Are they going to be level gated? Are the barriers between spheres being removed? Is the power being back-loaded? How about just start with what is wrong with the current system that that is being addressed?

Some information besides "we're working on it" is a requirement at this point.

[Lynnabel]

Some information besides "we're working on it" is a requirement at this point.

It's not. We're working on it, and when we have something to share, we will.

[SerPounce]

This is a pretty frustrating conversation for those of us that don't have access to leaked info. If there's going to be a discussion on the official forms about it, how about the devs tell the rest of the class what's going on?

[Pandjed]

I think there may be some people that underestimate game and system-design. Asking the devs about specifics in the conception stage is unfair. The want to work on ED doesn't equal "We know what we want to do". Usually, it's rather than: "We have this problem, I have three different designs to get there, but before I even remotely decide that I use any of them, I should better look at the next problem".
Sharing details too early in the process will at best just give false hopes, wrong impressions, and maybe even premature rage-quits, as most likely nothing is set in cheese, not mentioning stone.

I mean, do you announce when looking at a loaf of bread: "I may slice it horizontally, then put butter and salt on it. Or maybe cheese instead salt. I may also slice it vertically, putting some sliced vegetables on top and make a salad. Or I may put it in the oven, heat it up, put chocolote cream on it and candles and sell it as a birthday cake, instead of eating it myself. Wait, there is even the option to wait until it's dry to feed my fishes with it. How about using a drill to make holes, push a fishstick through it, then put all of it into the microwave, and then test that out on my nephew? Can you electrify bread? Now that I think of it, I need a new eraser for my coal drawings. Maybe I put ratpoison into it and put it out as bait... these little rats!"
If you do, don't wonder if nobody even wants to even touch your bread, as there may be rat poison on it, after all. :P

[SerPounce]

I don't really see how this is a fair assessment, especially given that you heard about our planned ED changes from the announcement in which we stated we wanted to take time and iterate and do it right - the exact opposite of what this post implies :P

It's not. We're working on it, and when we have something to share, we will.

Lol, k.

Players: "The devs aren't very open to giving out info"
Dev: "that's not fair"
Players: "OK, can you share some info about this thing that there's apparently all kinds of rumors and leaked info about?"
Dev: "No, we don't owe you anything peasant"

I mean, if you don't want to share info, then fine. But lets not pretend you guys are being anything other than extremely closed about this process. The only official info we've gotten was a weird statement about how something we didn't know was going to happen was going to happen later than expected. But apparently everyone that matters already knew so whatev.

[SirValentine]

I don't really see how this is a fair assessment

I don't know what you're going to do in the future. But an assessment of multiple observed past occurrences seems perfectly fair to me, and a reasonable place to start predicting about the future.

[Stravix]

I think there may be some people that underestimate game and system-design. Asking the devs about specifics in the conception stage is unfair. The want to work on ED doesn't equal "We know what we want to do". Usually, it's rather than: "We have this problem, I have three different designs to get there, but before I even remotely decide that I use any of them, I should better look at the next problem".
Sharing details too early in the process will at best just give false hopes, wrong impressions, and maybe even premature rage-quits, as most likely nothing is set in cheese, not mentioning stone.

I mean, do you announce when looking at a loaf of bread: "I may slice it horizontally, then put butter and salt on it. Or maybe cheese instead salt. I may also slice it vertically, putting some sliced vegetables on top and make a salad. Or I may put it in the oven, heat it up, put chocolote cream on it and candles and sell it as a birthday cake, instead of eating it myself. Wait, there is even the option to wait until it's dry to feed my fishes with it. How about using a drill to make holes, push a fishstick through it, then put all of it into the microwave, and then test that out on my nephew? Can you electrify bread? Now that I think of it, I need a new eraser for my coal drawings. Maybe I put ratpoison into it and put it out as bait... these little rats!"
If you do, don't wonder if nobody even wants to even touch your bread, as there may be rat poison on it, after all. :P

1000x this. If things are only in the conceptual phase of game design, there is nothing to say that might not be COMPLETELY changed by release. Giving your playerbase a look at such an unfinished concept of a design, is not only disingenuous, but interferes with your ability to take that design in a different direction, which is the entire point of a concept phase.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Some information besides "we're working on it" is a requirement at this point.

It's not. We're working on it, and when we have something to share, we will.

You people (players) need to chill out. I find the negativity in this thread a little too much even compared to my old rants.

The entire world has been affected by the pandemic. Give SSG some space and go play CC for the new loot.

[SerPounce]

1000x this. If things are only in the conceptual phase of game design, there is nothing to say that might not be COMPLETELY changed by release. Giving your playerbase a look at such an unfinished concept of a design, is not only disingenuous, but interferes with your ability to take that design in a different direction, which is the entire point of a concept phase.

That's fair, but sharing info with the "player's council" shouldn't be too far detached from sharing it with the rest of the community. A lot of the problem is that they have this group of insiders that gets both early info and a much greater voice. And then that group shares info with their buddies so they can get a jump on things and manipulate any relevant markets. If they want to keep it in-house then actually keep it in-house. Just sharing with their favorite clique is going to create problems.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You people (players) need to chill out. I find the negativity in this thread a little too much even compared to my old rants.

The entire world has been affected by the pandemic. Give SSG some space and go play CC for the new loot.

"You people"?

[ChicagoChris]

It's not. We're working on it, and when we have something to share, we will.

Thanks! And note I believe that the vast majority of us are OK with this. We know you all are working hard, and that for the most part you're trying to be good caretakers of the game.

Please share high level points when you're ready for them, details when appropriate.

[Captain_Wizbang]

That's fair, but sharing info with the "player's council" shouldn't be too far detached from sharing it with the rest of the community. A lot of the problem is that they have this group of insiders that gets both early info and a much greater voice. And then that group shares info with their buddies so they can get a jump on things and manipulate any relevant markets. If they want to keep it in-house then actually keep it in-house. Just sharing with their favorite clique is going to create problems.

Mournlands and the now the PC have their place in developmental feedback, but no means are they designed to be the final say in anything. Its for player feedback based on the developers designs.
Some feedback helps with situations "the team" might be stuck on or way off base w/#'s and systems.
Certain feedback never sees the light of day, maybe that topic has been addressed and/or changed, and doesn't require more info. While other feedback might be at one end of the spectrum and the topic is at the other, so it wouldn't have merit.
As for staff/PC communication,,........... People are people, and generally the system works well for everyone, but sometimes there's a breach of the NDA, at which point the system breaks down and mayhem ensues.

If a player is violating the NDA, they should be removed asap. If a dev is offering more info than required and to certain players on a recurring basis, that staff member should be reprimanded.

The PC is a GIFT. Lamma-Land is a gift. SSG can just end all external communications, then we have Nada until updates are released.

[Zess-wolf]

People need to understand something: Development isnt just putting blocks and arranging stuffs, there are many things and boundaries that must be respected.

The ED change is confirmed, speculated, leaked(?) but for then to postpone it only means one thing: By no means its ready to be show/publicized.

There are STEPS that MUST be followed within a company, business, etc, PROCEDURES and if the procedure isnt: SHOW THE PLAYERS WHATEVER THEY DESIRE, WHENEVER THEY DESIRE, them sorry, but you aren't getting the info.

"Oh i pay for this game bla bla bla" - Ok, you pay for windows software too, can you see everything inside whenever and however you want? No.

Sony released the PS5 price WHEN they wanted, not when people wanted. Elden ring information is due already, but they havent said anything in a years, its a meme already.

Even the unfinished EDs on DDO have to get approval, and i believe from WoC too, so its not just throw at the players because they are crying, but its how its done. The players dont own the game, SSG is the one that "owns" it (although the D&D is a license, but thats another thing)

SO, TLDR: While Its not ready to be show, it wont be, chill out and have fun with CC for now

[SerPounce]

The PC is a GIFT. Lamma-Land is a gift. SSG can just end all external communications, then we have Nada until updates are released.

I'll take that over the current nonsense where some people get to know things and have input and others don't. They're clearly breaking the NDAs and sharing with friends. This whole thread is based on leaked info that is apparently so widespread there's a discussion on the official forums about it. What part of the development cycle is that? How about when all the alchemical weapons disappeared from the ASAH well before the official announcement about upgrades? Or all the cheap named items (sentient XP) on the AH before raveloft? Is that all part of the proper development cylce? It's not just one leak, their NDAs are clearly being systematically ignored by the PC hand have been for years. This goes all the way back to epic sands scrolls getting dumped before trade ins were implimented.

Just get rid of it and decide whether you want to share info with the community for feedback or not. Don't divide the community between the connected and the ignored. No way that leads to a healthy relationship either between devs and players or players and other players. Or at the very least close topics on the official forums about leaked info. DOn't just engage with people who got leaked info and have a insider-only discussion with them on the main forums. If nothing else it's simply rude.

[Eantarus]

It's not. We're working on it, and when we have something to share, we will.

The beatings shall continue until moral improves.

[MaeveTuohy]

Thanks! And note I believe that the vast majority of us are OK with this.

Any factual basis for this belief? Because the evidence from my group, and from this forum and from players I chat with online doesn't support it, so I'd be interested to know what your personal belief is grounded in.