Epic Destiny Changes- Communication is Key

[karatemack]

After rumors and speculation about massive changes which would upend the current Epic Destiny system, both Cordovan and Cocomajobo have confirmed that some type of change is incoming for Epic Destinies. While I'm sure the development team have plenty of reasons for not discussing publicly at this time, not the least of which most likely being because they haven't finalized any plans at this time as they have indicated, it would be nice if there were communication on the plans for these changes FAR IN ADVANCE of their development and implementation.

While I won't re-state any specific rumors or potential leaks here, much of what was stated would lead to massive imbalances in the game. It would make the grind for Epic lives exponentially worse, and would leave most players with an extreme increase in power all at once. Whether it is increasing the level cap, or implementing changes to a system like Epic Destinies which provide a large portion of character power, having players involved in the discussions earlier in the process would be beneficial to everyone. Much like when enhancements were updated many years ago from the prestige (hope I picked all the right pre-reqs) system to the familiar window we utilize for enhancement/reaper trees today.

[Bjond]

the grind for Epic lives

I actually really like the current epics. It's not a grind for me, it's fun -- at least after they're all unlocked. I'm even OK with the unlock grind on a new character. It sorta reminds one to be gentle with epic newbies.

Swapping EDs to a back-loaded system would be an instant game-punt for me. The leaked speculation already completely killed any chance of me pre-ordering an expansion. They'd have to put up a Lamannia preview that assuages my fears of back-loading for that to happen.

OTH, while doom-saying is popular, what if they learned and decided to flip things to a much more front-loaded system? That would mean alts would be more fun and epic newbies wouldn't be so fragile and useless. I'd LOVE that and would express my appreciation there with a pre-order.

[Stravix]

I actually really like the current epics. It's not a grind for me, it's fun -- at least after they're all unlocked. I'm even OK with the unlock grind on a new character. It sorta reminds one to be gentle with epic newbies.

Swapping EDs to a back-loaded system would be an instant game-punt for me. The leaked speculation already completely killed any chance of me pre-ordering an expansion. They'd have to put up a Lamannia preview that assuages my fears of back-loading for that to happen.

OTH, while doom-saying is popular, what if they learned and decided to flip things to a much more front-loaded system? That would mean alts would be more fun and epic newbies wouldn't be so fragile and useless. I'd LOVE that and would express my appreciation there with a pre-order.

EDs are already WAY too frontloaded right now. Your character doesn't get stronger from 21-30, just your gear does. But, that is irrelevant right now, as the "leaked" version of the ED pass was already confirmed to be wildly off the bar from where they were actually planning on going, and that they would be sharing it with us the moment they feel it is coherent enough to be tested.

[Tyrande]

IMHO, I think this is to prevent level 30 people going into R10 dungeons power leveling level 20 (especially fighters/paladins/martial type) people in the party.

Nothing says that people can't do that in the future, but without full EDs at level 20, even the martial people will be difficult to survive in R10 in level 33 legendary dungeons.

Also, since there are going to be a revamp, I suspect there will be more epic skills and epic spells in the new trees to support up to level 40. Well, if players fill out the trees at level 20, where is the fun in that? Doing legendary level 43 dungeons in R10 at level 20?

P.S. I thought in DDO we say "Information is Key" as in House Phiarlan ;o)

[karatemack]

p.s. I thought in ddo we say "information is key" as in house phiarlan ;o)

[Gniewomir]

I'm pretty sure they said something about deleting xp spheres if you consider it a leak. :P

Personally i hope they're going to get rid leveling eds and either make them f2p or delete requirements for ER other than lvl 30. right now there's literally 0 reason for new players without ed to run epics. And if we speak about leveling - cmon, you pay for the thing that gives you nothing cause you have to level it up first, so basically they're selling ability to grind xp for specific purpose. And i don't think that alts are so popular nowadays that adding some annoyance is required to make them less popular. Seriously, i hate leveling eds when i roll new character, especially those like healbots or tanks, so soloing ability is pretty low.

[Bjond]

IMHO, I think this is to prevent level 30 people going into R10 dungeons power leveling level 20

The level-gap penalty on earned R/XP already does that: "4 levels below the highest-level character in the party, you receive a -50% penalty." and it gets worse the bigger the gap.

if players fill out the trees at level 20, where is the fun in that?

It's in using the passives & abilities. The only fun in an unfilled tree is hoping to use the abilities. If hope is all you need, why log in, just dream on ...

I'm pretty sure they said something about deleting xp spheres if you consider it a leak.

Removing karma would be interesting. That would mean you could play whatever tree you like and then ETR your pick of sphere. Doing that would kill sales for their "Call of Destiny" items. I admit to using those for my caster, but then I'm also punting all caster play in part because it requires using one.

Hard to say if they'd remove initial XP. There's a strong abhorrence for unlocks without grind here (but but, how can you get something if you haven't worked/earned it?). Heh. This is play, not work.

That initial grind is a good thing in some ways. It forces a player to experience each tree and learn how it works with the build, but there definitely comes a point when that's just beating a dead horse.

[Stravix]

The level-gap penalty on earned R/XP already does that: "4 levels below the highest-level character in the party, you receive a -50% penalty." and it gets worse the bigger the gap.



It's in using the passives & abilities. The only fun in an unfilled tree is hoping to use the abilities. If hope is all you need, why log in, just dream on ...



Removing karma would be interesting. That would mean you could play whatever tree you like and then ETR your pick of sphere. Doing that would kill sales for their "Call of Destiny" items. I admit to using those for my caster, but then I'm also punting all caster play in part because it requires using one.

Hard to say if they'd remove initial XP. There's a strong abhorrence for unlocks without grind here (but but, how can you get something if you haven't worked/earned it?). Heh. This is play, not work.

That initial grind is a good thing in some ways. It forces a player to experience each tree and learn how it works with the build, but there definitely comes a point when that's just beating a dead horse.

I would argue watching your character get stronger would be the fun. People like to see themselves progress. That's why people still level up characters w/o otto boxes, because they want that progression. Frontload the power too much, and you get no progression.

[ggmarquez]

The level-gap penalty on earned R/XP already does that: "4 levels below the highest-level character in the party, you receive a -50% penalty." and it gets worse the bigger the gap.

this doesn't apply in epic levels. only heroic.

[boredGamer]

Nothing says that people can't do that in the future, but without full EDs at level 20, even the martial people will be difficult to survive in R10 in level 33 legendary dungeons.

Who cares if they survive? If the plan is pike xp, you can do it just as well dead.

[SpartanKiller13]

Who cares if they survive? If the plan is pike xp, you can do it just as well dead.

If you watch multiboxers, it seems to be even more efficient to quest while logged out, so your XP pot duration doesn't decrease lol. If every quest only takes 1 minute of your Sov II pot, you can get ~360 quests done with just one of them

------

I'm sure there are people dragging others through quests in epics to grind PL's etc, but I haven't seen it done long-term deliberately aside from multiboxers bringing their own alts, and occasional PUG's sort of qualify (like if I'm zerging WPM for SXP I'll open the LFM 20-30).

[AbyssalMage]

...they would be sharing it with us the moment they feel it is coherent enough to be tested.

Remember that the players preview things to build excitement. We don't actually test much, if anything as history has repeatedly demonstrated. Simply put, they do not (purposefully or not) give themselves enough time to make corrections from the time of preview to the time of release.

OP,

Honestly this is the first I have heard that they are messing with the ED system. SSG track record has me mortified on how many different ways they are going to mess this up. I'll try to retain a shred of optimism that they can do it adequately. Frankly, that is all the optimism they have remaining with me.

[Sebastrd]

After rumors and speculation about massive changes which would upend the current Epic Destiny system, both Cordovan and Cocomajobo have confirmed that some type of change is incoming for Epic Destinies. While I'm sure the development team have plenty of reasons for not discussing publicly at this time, not the least of which most likely being because they haven't finalized any plans at this time as they have indicated, it would be nice if there were communication on the plans for these changes FAR IN ADVANCE of their development and implementation.

While I won't re-state any specific rumors or potential leaks here, much of what was stated would lead to massive imbalances in the game. It would make the grind for Epic lives exponentially worse, and would leave most players with an extreme increase in power all at once. Whether it is increasing the level cap, or implementing changes to a system like Epic Destinies which provide a large portion of character power, having players involved in the discussions earlier in the process would be beneficial to everyone. Much like when enhancements were updated many years ago from the prestige (hope I picked all the right pre-reqs) system to the familiar window we utilize for enhancement/reaper trees today.

That's exactly why there's a Players' Council. Believe it or not, no matter your playstyle, someone on the PC is representing your point of view.

It'd be nice but its not going to happen. Not how the devs operate. They dont share ideas with us at the idea phase and let us iterate it with them on the whiteboard. No, they just put together whatever they think is a good idea, then go straight to coding it, and THEN put it on Lama for us all to playtest it, then have to go back and fix all the problems on the fly that we could've easily told them about before they wasted their time coding a problematic system in the first place.

Or worse, they just push a flawed system through anyway with just a few insignificant tweaks, just because they'd already spent so much time and effort building it.

For some reason, even after playing the game for 10+ years, the devs dont seem to think we understand it enough to be able to theorycraft with them. Their mantra is always "we want you to actually play it and see", as though we dont predict what 90% of the problems end up being just from reading the patch notes.

None of that is really true; but it's not like anything would ever convince you otherwise, so que sera, sera?

[SerPounce]

That's exactly why there's a Players' Council. Believe it or not, no matter your playstyle, someone on the PC is representing your point of view.
[/COLOR]

Put me down for not believing it. And frankly the assumption is insulting. It's one thing to not get a voice, but don't pretend to speak for me.

[karatemack]

I don't really see how this is a fair assessment, especially given that you heard about our planned ED changes from the announcement in which we stated we wanted to take time and iterate and do it right - the exact opposite of what this post implies :P

I agree with Lynnabel here. Posts accusing the dev team of something nefarious aren't in keeping with the tone I intended.

The enhancement changes (which I referenced before) were a large change and were implemented to much applause after extensive player feedback. My hope in starting this thread was to encourage a similar process for discussion of the game beyond level 30, given the overall impact these changes will have to the game.

That's exactly why there's a Players' Council. Believe it or not, no matter your playstyle, someone on the PC is representing your point of view.

As an alumni of the players council, and having served successfully for nearly 2 years, I can tell you I understand how the PC functions. I still believe plans for progression beyond level 30 would benefit from open discussions on the forums while there is still time for alterations to the plans. Not because the plans will be bad, not because they will need to be re-worked entirely... but because of the degree of impact to the game and the benefits of having additional minds dedicated to thinking through all the consequences (intended or not) of such systems.

The entirety of what there is to know about this subject right now is located in Coco's post here. Everything else is rumor and speculation, even if parts of it may have originated in leaked-but-entirely-incomplete (and in some cases entirely incorrect) information.

The postponement of the Level Cap Increase was so that we can take the time to do it right, separate from the Feywild Expansion Pack. It's not in a state where it's ready to be shared publicly. It likely won't be for a while, because we're all-hands-on-deck trying to finish the Feywild Expansion Pack.

I'd advise not making assumptions based on rumors, it doesn't help anyone, but I know that won't change the minds of some.

I'm glad you all are listening, and taking the time to do it right. I can't wait to learn more about Feywild, and have been hyping it up in all the DDO circles I run in. FWIW- the tone of this thread is not what I intended. Please feel free to lock the thread.

[droid327]

That's exactly why there's a Players' Council. Believe it or not, no matter your playstyle, someone on the PC is representing your point of view.

No offense, but I doubt most people could name who's on the PC at any given time, I dont know whose viewpoints they're supposed to be representing, I dont know how they're chosen, and they dont ever report or answer to the players.

I dont see how they're representative at all. They're not advocates, they're just a focus group.

I have zero faith in the PC being anything other than a token body that the devs either A) ultimately ignore, or B) use only for confirmation bias when they agree with what the devs were doing anyway. I dont see the PC ever posting anything of substance related to the PC other than "I cant say anything more because NDA" or "just wait till you see what they have planned". That's not representing the players, thats representing the devs.

I dont believe the PC is accomplishing what I'm hoping would be accomplished by revealing the design details for feedback as soon as the design concept is finalized.

[Eantarus]

No offense, but I doubt most people could name who's on the PC at any given time, I dont know whose viewpoints they're supposed to be representing, I dont know how they're chosen, and they dont ever report or answer to the players.

I dont see how they're representative at all. They're not advocates, they're just a focus group.

I have zero faith in the PC being anything other than a token body that the devs either A) ultimately ignore, or B) use only for confirmation bias when they agree with what the devs were doing anyway. I dont see the PC ever posting anything of substance related to the PC other than "I cant say anything more because NDA" or "just wait till you see what they have planned". That's not representing the players, thats representing the devs.

I dont believe the PC is accomplishing what I'm hoping would be accomplished by revealing the design details for feedback as soon as the design concept is finalized.

That's a very accurate summary.

And it also touches on the core problem: if SSG waits until all the work is done to tell us what they're going to do, they won't ever change anything no matter how bad it is.

Tinfoil hat time: what if pushing the ED revamp/cap increase out of feywild is a deliberate? E.G. they know from the fan uproar that it's going to be bad/hated, so they are moving it to save sales of feywild? If we knew they were going to level-gate EDs and enough people flat out wouldn't buy feywild after a change like that... that's pretty strong financial motive.

Based on how secretive/deceptive they are being on this one point, its not a huge leap.

[Mindos]

I can see how, IF you were gonna make, oh, IDK, call it LEGENDARY levels of power, that at some point you're gonna do some work and step back and think: Hey! This whole epic destiny thing is overlapping/sorta the same/in the way-ish, etc.

And IF, IF IF IF, you was gonna try to make an "End Game" that consisted of long term, fun, progression of "Legendary" power and effects, then the sudden, all at 20, instantly granted power from the Epic Destinies just doesn't mesh with that.

Now taking the lessons learned from Reaper trees, and seeing the rate the players fill them out, and looking at whats fun and engaging for the players, I can see "changing" how the Epic Destiny system works. And maybe, just maybe, these changes would NOT be a nerf when considered with all the changes in total, i.e., some Legendary Power just might smooth it all over.

If you want to expand the game, but not necessarily just do straight add-ons of levels at the end, then how would you do it? And it just might need to take the whole thing into consideration, and rething and rebalance, and replan out the end cap of the game.

But who knows? Sure, communication could be better. But sometimes there isn't really anything to communicate! (hard to believe, I know) If it's any comfort, take a look at the latest trend of the Devs when it comes to "changes" to players and such: Buffs, or equivalent power level. There ARE going to be changes. But I don't think the vast VAST majority will be upset when it's all said and done. I'm looking forward to where we all go from here, and I'm sure it will remain the unique "DDO" experience of fun and engagement.

[Vehementi]

Well... https://ddowiki.com/page/DDO_Players_Council From how it sounds... DDO has a better player council then Warframe, seeing as it changes over time. In warframe you just had to pay a large sum. Granted even though that council consists of whales they haven't screwed over the fr00bs. So both systems do work.

I just hope someone on that council this year is an advocate for more appearance equipment even if it's the stuff we see npc's with. Honestly haven't seen anything new in there in forever, meanwhile we got detective npcs with stuff we can't get.

[Natashaelle]

No offense, but I doubt most people could name who's on the PC at any given time, I dont know whose viewpoints they're supposed to be representing, I dont know how they're chosen, and they dont ever report or answer to the players.

First, PC Members are under no obligation to publicly declare their membership ; nor even in fact to post anything whatsoever on the public forums.

PC members are NOT "representatives", despite the very frequent confusion on this question. We're more like a group with a very eclectic collection of playing styles.

PC Members are not required to "report" to "players" (that is, "members of the DDO forums") ; and very often, but not always, NDA prevents it entirely. As to not "answering", well, the several current and former PC members who have done so in this very thread demonstrates that you're wrong about that.

I dont see how they're representative at all. They're not advocates, they're just a focus group.

Correct.

I have zero faith in the PC being anything other than a token body that the devs either A) ultimately ignore, or B) use only for confirmation bias when they agree with what the devs were doing anyway. I dont see the PC ever posting anything of substance related to the PC other than "I cant say anything more because NDA" or "just wait till you see what they have planned". That's not representing the players, thats representing the devs.

But this is completely incorrect. But we simply are NOT "representatives" -- we "represent" neither the general forum membership nor the devs. The latter quite obviously represent themselves.

I dont believe the PC is accomplishing what I'm hoping would be accomplished by revealing the design details for feedback as soon as the design concept is finalized.

That would be an egregious failure of simple respect towards the devs and towards SSG. A gross violation of trust, potentially illegal, and blatantly deserving of a lifetime ban.