Level Cap Increase Postponed

[Silverleafeon]

I think several people already mentioned this:

Hirelings needed!

If the level cap is increasing past level 30, we really need clerics at level 26, 28, 29, 30, and 31 along with improved high skill rogues at 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31.
Would also like Rangers and Wizards at level 25, 27, 29, and 31.
Would also like Fighters at level 28 and 30.
Would also like another level ?/30 gold seal with the expansion.

If you are going to do this, you need to step back and work on things like hires that are not anywhere near current level cap, much less an increased level cap.

Thanks for reading.

[KoobTheProud]

this is one of the most striking things about coming back to DDO after playing other games - every one has some form of on-ramping making it easier for new players to catch up, and there's just nothing like that here. someone starting DDO today gets the same Ember Rapier and Battleworn Chainshirt i got 10 years ago.

although i certainly wouldn't mind the reduced xp per life version (shorten the distance), the more common thing i've seen is items and boosts (increase the speed). what if all new accounts got...
-double XP (only for their first month)
-a permanent 3/day flask of mnemonic enhancement for casters and a permanent 3/day flask of cure critical wounds for melees
-50k plat
-an ML 10 box of a +4 Holy 3 of Bludgeoning 3 or 77 spellpower of 11 lore weapon, a +6 Con item and a +6 primary stat item by class, and 30 Striding boots

every new system puts new players further behind and at a worse relative speed. these would be very easy to generate, make a huge difference, and new players still wouldn't have a prayer of catching up even with an old player rolling a new character, so it seems to me like everyone would be happy with them

.

and just briefly: this is assuming we want new players to be able to catch up faster to old players. i would say yes because groups are fun and adding players to a game is indispensable to its ability to survive long term.

There's no 'catching up' in DDO because there's no point that everybody resets. A month of 10x XP wouldn't catch any new player up to anything meaningful. It would likely give them a 3rd life character and maybe a few Epic past lives. The meta is so far beyond that at this point that all the extra XP would do for them is to give them a glimpse of what the methuselahs, no-life grinders and dupers have.

At this stage of it's life Advanced DDO is like that cool backroom party at the local pub that only a few people can get in the door on. It's sad but it's true.

[Silverleafeon]

If the developers limit future level cap increases to +1 per expansion and do not implement a Legendary Reincarnation system, then I would conclude that there is no upper limit for level cap increases. (Of course, if we do limit thus, it will be another 10 to 15 years before we hit level 40 anyway).


The population will be bundled into three categories:

Reincarnations thru heroic levels due to new racial past lives.

Reincarnations thru epic levels due to new iconic past lives and players catching up with epic past lives.

End game players working on the latest high level content and raids.

[Silverleafeon]

There's no 'catching up' in DDO because there's no point that everybody resets.

+1 good point


Every old game will face the "what is your catch up plan?"

Having talked to Game Developers in the past, I found most to be very sincere in their passion for their game.
Most of them also have a strong interest in the overall history and tends in other games.

In the coming years, especially with the possible introduction of raising the level cap, there needs to be a lot of thought addressing this subject.

Raising the level cap does have one real benefit for new players: equipment and character power creep tends to erode past life power.
This is a good thing.

Many heroic past lives no longer have such as strong impact at level cap as they did before MotU.


However, if we add a new Legendary Reincarnation systems, the widening gap between alts and main toons will continue to increase.


The proper approach could be to create an easier path for new players, such as double past lives or reduced experience costs or making a new Legendary Reincarnations system grant three heroic or racial past lives: 40 back to 1 grants all Barbarians Past Lives or all Shifter Past Lives in one swoop.

(Although as you can see in the post right above this one, there is great benefit to not creating any sort of Legendary Reincarnation.)

[HungarianRhapsody]

If the developers limit future level cap increases to +1 per expansion and do not implement a Legendary Reincarnation system, then I would conclude that there is no upper limit for level cap increases. (Of course, if we do limit thus, it will be another 10 to 15 years before we hit level 40 anyway).

If they actually did that, I wouldn't be so opposed to a level increase. But I don't think that SSG will be able to keep themselves from adding a Legendary Past Lives grind. And I don't think that SSG will be able to keep themselves from selling a way to bypass that grind in the DDO store. At this point, the only thing I'm *actually* hoping for is that SSG manages to find a way to make a Legendary Otto's Box that can't be duped.

(Hint for SSG - make it traceable and DON'T MAKE IT STACKABLE)

[Silverleafeon]

If they actually did that, I wouldn't be so opposed to a level increase. But I don't think that SSG will be able to keep themselves from adding a Legendary Past Lives grind. And I don't think that SSG will be able to keep themselves from selling a way to bypass that grind in the DDO store. At this point, the only thing I'm *actually* hoping for is that SSG manages to find a way to make a Legendary Otto's Box that can't be duped.

(Hint for SSG - make it traceable and DON'T MAKE IT STACKABLE)

+1 well said


You have great points.

The rush to 40 to enable a legendary reincarnation system that adds more power to the game is a temptation that Devs need to avoid.
Its a trap!

[Silverleafeon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F4qzPbcFiA

[VinoeWhines]

+1 well said


You have great points.

The rush to 40 to enable a legendary reincarnation system that adds more power to the game is a temptation that Devs need to avoid.
Its a trap!

I'm all for raising the cap and NOT adding a Legendary Reincarnation or even hinting at one. The rule should be: FIX all WAI and revisit previous bad nerfs and "FIX" other issues and then, THEN when that is straightened out(maybe 5-7 years later) Producer Letter a throw-out saying how the climate is for a Legendary Reincarnation probability.
When I see a Shadar-kai whip out as much chain damage as his NPC counterpart, then maybe then the serfs are ready to eat their rez-cake.

[kanordog]

Hirelings needed!

First they gotto fix the AI, it doesnt really matter what level of the cleric hire has standing in the trap or charging ahead to die or forget to heal even themselves...

[Silverleafeon]

The top tier of the Feywild expansion adds:

Satyr Bard Hireling (Epic)*
Razorclaw Shifter Iconic
Winter Eladrin Cosmetics
(helm, armor, cloak)
Displacer Beast Cosmetic Pet
Black Unicorn Mount
Instant Teleport item to Feywild*
Tome of Destiny +1 for all characters


The Tome of Destiny is typed (Feywild) and therefore stacks with any other future or existing Tome of Destiny.

I feel this is a huge step forward for the Developers.
While it does not commit to any particular direction, it leave many possibilities open.

For example, if the devs decide to follow a variation of my examples of working on current epic destiny system, this alllow my suggested conversion of Tomes of Fate.
EI: your +3 Tome of Fate is transformed into a +3 Tome of Destiny (typed Fate) which would stack with the +1 Tome of Destiny (typed Feywild).

This allows the Devs to continue forward along a variation of (20 instant +3 per level with no barriers on spending) or another path if they choose to do so.

This also allows the Devs to continue selling these same tome of destiny (typed ____ expansion) in the future.

The above items listed were enough for me to choose the Complete Expansion Pack, and would likely continue such a purchase for future expansions.



Of importance, there was no code for this expansion, you were logged into one of your accounts.
This should prevent people from trying to hack DDO for expansion codes in today's turbulent environment.


Personally, if we never saw another Otto's Box and this more secure purchase is the new "deluxe purchase option", I would be very acceptive of that route.



Supposing, that the next expansion raised the level cap up 1 from 30 to 31 while providing an additional +1 Tome of Destiny typed Expansion X, while changing the epic destiny system to the (20+3 with unlimited spending model I showed earlier), how would the numbers look like:



Gaining Epic Levels:

Level 20
20 auto granted + 3 (fate typed) +1 (fey typed) + 1 (expansion X typed) = 25 points spendable on two epic destiny trees without any restrictions other than points spent on tree unlocks higher tiers as existing system

Level 21
28 points spendable on two trees

Level 22
31 points spendable on two trees

Level 23
34 points spendable on two trees

Level 24
37 points spendable on two trees

Level 25
40 points spendable on two trees

Level 26
43 points spendable on two trees

Level 27
46 points spendable on two trees

Level 28
49 points spendable on two trees

Level 28
52 points spendable on two trees

Level 29
55 points spendable on two trees

Level 30
58 points spendable on two trees

Level 31
61 points spendable on two trees


Please note that these points would not have any spending requirements other than:

Tier Two
After 4 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.

Tier Three
After 8 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.

Tier Four
After 12 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.

Tier Five
After 16 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.

Tier Six
After 20 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.



Please also note that such a system would remove all Twists of Fate but allow spending into two (or three if the Devs desired) trees instead of one.
This removes up to five slots with up to three points spent in each slot = loss of between 3 and 15 epic destiny points.
I do feel that the flexibility of choices within a second tree and the increase of points will more than make up for this loss.



Technically this would mean with every +1 level cap there would be an extra +1 epic destiny point to spend upon reaching epic levels.

[Silverleafeon]

I'm all for raising the cap and NOT adding a Legendary Reincarnation or even hinting at one. The rule should be: FIX all WAI and revisit previous bad nerfs and "FIX" other issues and then, THEN when that is straightened out(maybe 5-7 years later) Producer Letter a throw-out saying how the climate is for a Legendary Reincarnation probability.
When I see a Shadar-kai whip out as much chain damage as his NPC counterpart, then maybe then the serfs are ready to eat their rez-cake.

+1s

Agreed.
The more I think about it, the more I don't want to hear anything about a legendary reincarnation system during this decade.

First they gotto fix the AI, it doesnt really matter what level of the cleric hire has standing in the trap or charging ahead to die or forget to heal even themselves...

+1s

Aye, even more reason to slow the upward pace of level cap as much as possible.

[dennisck2]

Or they could.... (wait for it) ........ leave Epic Destinies alone. They are fine how they are. Just my opinion.

[Silverleafeon]

Or they could.... (wait for it) ........ leave Epic Destinies alone. They are fine how they are. Just my opinion.

+1 well said
I can understand your position, this game is complicated already.


You have a very valid point.
Putting aside my personal reasons listed above which I will not repeat here, this is an option that the Devs could take.



There are likely a whole lot of players who might support leaving everything alone, including level cap, epic destinies and more.
That would be the ultimate leave everything alone.



The Developers opened this portal, and I have to look at the flutter.
Since the Developers so far seem to want to move the level cap, well, what happens next?



Considering raising level cap, but leaving epic destinies alone (not my favorite option but exploring possible paths):



Solution 1) Leaving the Current Epic Destiny System alone & Continue Supplementing the fact that the Epic Destinies stop at level 6 minus 1 xp with more Epic Destiny Feats. This option has held the system together so far, and the Devs could try to continue using it. Perhaps one new Epic Destiny Feat every two levels and one new Legendary Scion Feat every three levels?

Problem with Solution 1) More powerful and creative Epic Destiny Feats will be required as the level cap progresses. Can the Developers creativity match this challenge? I would have to judge on a Feat by Feat basis. This would allow slow movement forward from level 30 to 31 to 32 to 33 to 34 to 35...

Advantages of Solution 1) This follows closest to the leave everything alone path. It does not address old problems, but does not introduce new problems.

Additional Problems with Solution 1) Some players feel Spellcaster options for Epic Destiny feats are inferior to Melee options for Epic Destiny Feats. Also, the best Melee Epic Destiny Feats might already exist.






Solution 2) Leaving the Current Epic Destiny System alone & Creating a new Legendary Destiny System The level cap would jump to 35 with the next expansion to allow sufficient levels to create a new Destiny System.

Problem with Solution 2) This jumps the level cap dramatically, quickly obsoleting current gear and meta. Creating a new Destiny System with the whole problems associated with the current system seems very unwise to me. Why create a new broken system without fixing and adapting the current system? The power creep at level 30 would be much larger than fixing the current system. Players are familiar with the current system and would adapt better to having more points to spend in the current system than learning a new system.

Additional Problem with Solution 2) It also points towards Legendary Reincarnation by the third expansion. This is something I highly oppose.

More Additional Problems with Solution 2) There are going to be more and more balance issues with each and every tree system that you add to the game. Eventually the Devs will have to do a Legendary Destiny System pass, because the trees are unbalanced and every melee/spellcaster only uses the most powerful tree for melee/spellcaster.

[kanordog]

There are likely a whole lot of players who might support leaving everything alone, including level cap, epic destinies and more.

Yep.

There are a lot of things to do in this game. Lot of things to grind for. You can skip quests while levelling. There is no reason for any major change.

And those who already got everything and tried every build (OP builds more likely) and bored will just smash the new content in a matter of weeks and get bored again.

[KoobTheProud]

Yep.

There are a lot of things to do in this game. Lot of things to grind for. You can skip quests while levelling. There is no reason for any major change.

And those who already got everything and tried every build (OP builds more likely) and bored will just smash the new content in a matter of weeks and get bored again.

Just pointing out that it took a year for most of the power gamers to get their reaper wings. Reaper did exactly what SSG tried to do, which was to give the addicted methuselahs something to grind on. It damaged the game significantly for everybody else with the meta shift to reaper difficulty but it handled the methuselahs just fine.

A good pusher knows the junkies they sell too.

[merlinfire1]

i think it might be a good idea to find some additional way to have vertical progression without adding additional levels. it doesn't need to be big leaps of progression. what's more important is that feeling you get when you are working towards a goal and making progress.

in my mind there's different kinds of progress that players might find interesting (and not all players will find all ways interesting)

the first and most obvious is the kind where your character becomes more powerful. the amount of increased power does not have to be large. my personal preference would be that this would be a function of XP beyond cap, but it needs to be something aside from the current method, which is raid for gear. raiding for gear is already a good system, i would leave it alone, and add something else in addition to it. This gives people potentially a reason to continue to buy XP boosters from the DDO store even once at cap. currently at cap you can still grind for drops/collectibles, the one thing you can't do anymore is gain xp. something I felt that The Division 1/2 did well was when you reached XP cap, your XP bar became essentially a "xp until next crate drop", where when you got a certain flat additional amount of XP, you got a loot crate with randomized loot inside. you could have this kind of crate pull from a special/unique loot table only for 30+ leveling chests, or just be random chest loot plus some kind of token that can be used at a special vendor, or even just extra remnants.

the second is some kind of of collecting system. this can take lots of forms. the most obvious is a housing system, and have modifications to the house tied to some sort of currency progression (platinum, collectibles, etc). you might argue that this is irrelevant in the age of the guild airship, and perhaps that is true - you could accomplish something similar by expanding upon the guild airship system. increase the max guild level and add in more benefits, which also gives players more reasons to purchase guild-reknown-boosters from the DDO store. the Monster Manual books are examples of a collectible/stickerbook type system, add additional tiers to this at the very highest kill counts that grant some kind of inherent favored enemy type bonus when completed.

thirdly possibly the easiest way to approach this, especially as the game's list of quests continues to grow, is to add additional favor tiers for existing factions, and add meaningful rewards at favor tiers that are currently empty.

i dunno, i just feel like long-term the TR grind is going to wear thin, not because people are all getting completionist, but because people don't want to do it, and extending the level cap is only going to make it more insane. personally i see myself doing a few TR's to get a good feel for what I like and picking up a few bonuses, and then picking something and sticking to it

[Silverleafeon]

i think it might be a good idea to find some additional way to have vertical progression without adding additional levels. it doesn't need to be big leaps of progression. what's more important is that feeling you get when you are working towards a goal and making progress.

Interesting point.

in my mind there's different kinds of progress that players might find interesting (and not all players will find all ways interesting)

Tailoring to different styles is smart.

the first and most obvious is the kind where your character becomes more powerful.

I can see that.

the amount of increased power does not have to be large.

Very valid point.

my personal preference would be that this would be a function of XP beyond cap, but it needs to be something aside from the current method, which is raid for gear. raiding for gear is already a good system, i would leave it alone, and add something else in addition to it. This gives people potentially a reason to continue to buy XP boosters from the DDO store even once at cap. currently at cap you can still grind for drops/collectibles, the one thing you can't do anymore is gain xp. something I felt that The Division 1/2 did well was when you reached XP cap, your XP bar became essentially a "xp until next crate drop", where when you got a certain flat additional amount of XP, you got a loot crate with randomized loot inside. you could have this kind of crate pull from a special/unique loot table only for 30+ leveling chests, or just be random chest loot plus some kind of token that can be used at a special vendor, or even just extra remnants.

Very interesting and worth considering.
Perhaps, one could have a free "gold" roll auto rolled in place of the crate drop (or a different loot table of equal nature).


My initial request long ago was to grant +1 hit point & +1 spell point per a few million expr earned while at level cap via special expr bar.
Perhaps that could include "Ranks" as in Rank 101 for bragging rights?
This may have evolved into the current reaper system (not thru my own influence but by many others voicing similar "level cap is boring with wasted xp")

I have noticed that the new Mounts grants a new type of cosmetic which could be added to the current reaper system as a gated Reaper Vendor (of proportionately higher rxp requirements) for those few who have already earned their reaper wings. (I still have a ways to go on that goal, but I like long term goals.)

the second is some kind of of collecting system. this can take lots of forms. the most obvious is a housing system, and have modifications to the house tied to some sort of currency progression (platinum, collectibles, etc). you might argue that this is irrelevant in the age of the guild airship, and perhaps that is true - you could accomplish something similar by expanding upon the guild airship system. increase the max guild level and add in more benefits, which also gives players more reasons to purchase guild-reknown-boosters from the DDO store. the Monster Manual books are examples of a collectible/stickerbook type system, add additional tiers to this at the very highest kill counts that grant some kind of inherent favored enemy type bonus when completed.

I do like that the current guild system does not have decay until 150+ at which point there is no longer any additional benefits. This grants an important "bragging rights" value without increasing the huge gap between new players and veterans. I would prefer that the current Guild System not be increased in benefits.

The only Guild change I might ask for is a decrease in Hardcore Costs as it is a temporary server?

Monster Manual benefits are always welcome as dev time permits.

As far as a housing system, that has always been a popular request, so I am sure the Devs had many discussions therein.
(Feel free to share Devs when you can, we love to listen.)
(Also any behind the scenes view of expansions are appreciated.)

thirdly possibly the easiest way to approach this, especially as the game's list of quests continues to grow, is to add additional favor tiers for existing factions, and add meaningful rewards at favor tiers that are currently empty.

When I was on the Player's Council there was definite back and forth discussion about increasing Favor.
I think some of the current updates came about as back of those discussions by myself and later Members.
More Favor Rewards as time permits are always appreciated.

i dunno, i just feel like long-term the TR grind is going to wear thin, not because people are all getting completionist, but because people don't want to do it, and extending the level cap is only going to make it more insane. personally i see myself doing a few TR's to get a good feel for what I like and picking up a few bonuses, and then picking something and sticking to it

Given that we might have an Expansion every 18 months (give or take as time allows) and I and other players expect that each of these expansion will include a race in normal and iconic versions, that is a total of 6 new past lives over a total of 18 months = 1 past live to earn every 3 months.
When I first started reincarnating long ago, a life took about 3 months, so this is a very comfortable time frame for a normal player.

The list of possible future races is quite long due to the deep lore of D&D and I feel that DDO will never exhaust all possible choices.

We also have the possibilities of new classes of which D&D also have a massive list to choose from.
The main problem here is trying to find classes that feel and play distinctly different from other classes.
The other main problem is balancing a new class against existing classes.
While we might not see a new class every 18 months, there is still a fairly good chance that during this new decade we are likely to see more new classes.

If the devs let go of strong class distinction, then the possibility of one class every 18 months is very likely.
A good example is the Scout class, which would feel like a trapping ranger.

Psionics itself is a popular approach with the problem of separating Psionic power from Ki and Spell Power with a possible new bar.
If a Dev can ever open that door, it will yield several to a half a dozen new classes.

The latest increase of Epic Destiny Past Lives feels like a finished product there, even if we add more Epic Destines in the future.

Given all that, the current reincarnation systems will yield more new Past Lives than most players can handle without any insertion of a new reincarnation system.

Also, we really don't need an Iconic Completionist Feat now that we have Epic, Heroic and Racial, although I will not quibble is someday such is added.

[Carpone]

There are likely a whole lot of players who might support leaving everything alone, including level cap, epic destinies and more.

If the devs subscribed to that design philosophy, then the game would never have progressed past level 20. When MOTU pushed the level cap to 25, it was already long overdue. Imagine Wiz King and Devil's Assault being endgame content today. The game wouldn't have survived this long.

The level increase is coming in 2021. Sev confirmed it in DDOCast's interview. For all y'all that haven't watched it, you should. Because most of this discussion in this thread is disconnected from the reality that's coming.

[Silverleafeon]

The level increase is coming in 2021. Sev confirmed it in DDOCast's interview. For all y'all that haven't watched it, you should.

I assume you mean this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSiFK8_JIjI

[Silverleafeon]

A few comments on the video:


1) I am very pleased with the new Feywild Expansion. I am very impressed that this was done while adapting to working remotely. Thank you Devs!
I like my tuning fork key.
I like my new level 5 bard which I now summon along with Thistle and whatever plat cleric I can purchase.
Since I am currently playing a Barbarian Shifter who can net augment summoning this trio makes very nice cannon fodder even in groups of 2 or 3 players.
I love the theme and artwork of the Feywild along with the puzzling/skill checks.


2) I am very pleased with the new augment system.
This will help my end game builds so much and provides lots of future possibilities.
This is very big for me as I have watched for ages the augment system became outdated and outleveled.


3) The year 2020 has been a difficult year for many, so kicking the level cap increase down the road was a very smart move and using that time to make the Feywild and the Augment system great.
Hopefully next year will be more positive and more time will allow the Developer to avoid the pitfalls of moving the level cap forward.


4) Sev basically said that increasing level cap is the most obvious way to allow new character progression.
That is not exactly saying that the level cap increase is inevitable, but it does mean that its very, very likely to happen.
I do hope the Devs think about why they want the level cap to increase, and this perhaps provides insight therein.
My thoughts are that without a level cap increase, loot creation becomes very problematic, which doubles down on character progression being tied to level cap.
I do strongly feel that having accumulated full Heroic and Epic levels, that Legendary Levels can increase at a much slower pace.
I recommend only increasing the level cap by 1 level each time (or 2 at the most), not higher.


5) In the same topic, the Developers brought up that DDO has a long history of development and as such one can look back and see things that at the time seemed good but later turned out to be a mistake.
It is great the Devs mention thus.

I perceive that the current Epic Destiny System seemed very good when created for level cap 25, but failed to realize that the level cap would increase and that Epic Reincarnation would occur.
I have recommended and described in great detail a revision of the Epic Destiny system if we are to move the level cap higher.
If the Devs can improve and be inspired by my details and create something even better, that would be wonderful.

I perceive allowing Epic Reincarnation to occur at level 28 then raising thus to level 30 seemed very good when created but caused hard feeling later on.
It would have been much harder to avoid Iconic reincarnation at level 25 then 28 then 30 and I consider that less problematic.
Cordovan to this day has to continue to assure people that that a new level cap would not again changed the level at which Iconic and Epic Reincarnation would occur.
I am sure a few years from now, people will continue to ask, "what level can I preform Epic & Iconic reincarnation?" -> to which the reply will and should be level 30.

I perceive that Racial Reincarnation overfilled up the capacity for past lives, making a possibly Legendary Reincarnation system a mistake, especially if rushed in early.


6) Summoning is viewed as underpowered and needing help, but would require vast work to do properly (like the augment system).
Sev suggested that if the players were willing to give up intelligent pathing for summons, that would help.
To answer that, I would love to see some swarm type summoning that is sort of like a moving area of effect spell which is limited in intelligence and mostly affects one dungeon room.


7) The Devs has enough good ideas for the next dozen years, including many previous suggestions from players.
Time limits thus, along with resourced needed by certain skill sets.


8) Overall, a video worth listening to. Thank you DDO Cast


9) The secret stuff via Dull Dagger and Feywild? - well done, more in the future thank you.


10) Also of note, Devs mentioned increasing Guild benefits and that Guild grouping could be key for more player parties as an alternative to lfg posting.


11) Also of note, Devs mentioned no new hardcore season during holidays and exploring Feywild Expansion.
Devs mentioned each hardcore season is likely to have certain new twists.
Also, popular hardcore seasons might get a repeat eventually.