Level Cap Increase Postponed

[Kinerd]

I was not at all thrilled to hear the initial announcement about the level cap increase, either. But consider this:

Without it, content will continue to pile up on itself at level 30. We're about to have three full expansions of content all at the same max character level; and the only meaningful progression will come from new loot. That's bonkers and, frankly, unsustainable. I have no stomach for running more and more "Legendary" content at level 30 just for marginal gains from new loot that slowly obsoletes old loot of the same minimum level.

or we can have a Legendary Qualities system, just like Epic Destinies or Reaper points except you can only do it at level 30

gives everybody all the progression they want, doesn't render 100 quests obsolete, doesn't rarify population, it's a win-win-win

[IBCrabin]

Sometimes you guys makes me wonder, if you ever think that there might be another reason as to why people don't group with you. Instead of the lack of the player base.

Same reason why older players don't make alt toons anymore.

Even if the people are pleasant to be around in a group, the power gap from toons without multiple PLs to where "end game" toon is tremendous and doesn't change why some people won't join a group running R3+ for TR. Even if they do join, they leave the group after a few quest from repetitive death.

A toon with 30+ ac with 36 prr at level 1 is a joke to play compared to a toon without multiple ePL. You can put them in the same group running on reaper, but 1 of them will end up dying regularly playing as a melee. Easy for people to criticize and say they shouldn't be running on reaper but the population is quite spread out and small for them to form any group. We have player in the guild started playing 2 month ago and not able to form any public group to run elite.

The game hasn't change much from U11 somewhat self sufficient playstyle when people used to make half elf cleric dili for scroll healing. Only now they need more PLs and tomes to scroll heal with UMD and possibly splash a class with scroll mastery instead of half-elf dili for racial TR. Healer type build are still quite rare in this game.

Level increase, PLs grind is fine if the end result doesn't increase the leveling time tremendously. This may help people reconsider making alt toons than playing on the same toon seeking for more content and challenge. Health of the game can be encourage with horizontal growth of more toons on the account than vertical growth with TR and content on the same toon.

1. heroic and racial TR should have been setup so they can be done together in 1 TR. Older players with heroic PLs can do the racial while new players / toons without heroic PLs will not be far behind because the grind time is about the same. This also encourage people to play other class beside casters to add racial PLs in heroic.

Back then, people grinded out the ePL only had to do 6 mil xp to cap, Now we are at 8.25 mil. Sure there are more content, but this still take more time and more xp pot to cap and TR.

2. Increasing level cap but keeping the xp around the current range will help greatly for new players and new toons to catch up with less grind.

3. Epic PL shouldn't be available in heroic for the reason of balance / power creep in heroic / old content. But this is long past the point of reversal and the new gear / content is designed in a way to include the passive ePL feats.

[wraxzz]

after over 10 years, i'd rather not see ANOTHER level cap increase and the mumbo jumbo power creep nonsense with it, but rather see existing general bugs fixed, existing quest bugs fixed, existing trash named items reworked, existing awful content upgraded. The more you move the goalposts at epic levels, the more unfun you make this game. Enough already

[Silverleafeon]

...(such as a highly rumored Epic Destiny revamp to make sure they fit in the new builds ecosystem)...

A restating of thoughts on the matter



Problems with the current Epic Destiny System:


1) It added a system of the grind because Epic Reincarnation was not yet available. The struggle for earning Epic Destiny XP is no longer needed and puts an increased time sink for new toons for Alts and New Accounts. The Sphere System can make players play in low or empty destinies that decrease their initial enjoyment of Epic Levels and make them feel even more gimp.

2) The Sphere System makes it very difficult. Players have to earn thru desired Epic Destinies to reach their goals.

3) Once earned and unlocked, the entire Epic Destiny Trees and Spheres remain unlocked. The experience moves from a very tedious poor new toon experience into an explosion of power at level 20, followed by minimal progression except Feats and Epic Destiny Feats.

4) Spellcaster levels are granted by Epic Destiny Cores, which vary from tree to tree. The gaming experience again provides an explosion of Caster Levels (which provide Spell Pen) at level 20, followed by zero progression. Most spellcasters only benefit from these extra five caster levels from one-quarter of the total trees, limiting choices (Developer creativity).

5) The current system assumes that the level cap is 25. As the level cap grows beyond 25, the system becomes more and more distorted.

6) The current system grants 24 epic destiny points all at once. If you look at the existing heroic trees, we are awarded four action points for every level. While 24 epic destiny points made sense with the level cap at 25 (6*4=24), the growth in the game since then has out shaded the 24 points, which currently should be 40 (10*4=40) and raising even higher as the level cap increases.

7) The current Twist system will become more and more outdated as the level cap increases. With Epic Destiny points accumulation, more and more of a single tree will be full. The heroic system allows spending in additional trees, making it a much smoother mechanic.

8) Spellcasting in Epic Levels is challenging to balance. The limits of keeping Caster Levels inside certain Epic Destiny Cores increase this problem.

9) All Epic Destiny trees have far more potential than we can use. We don't spend enough to points to cover most of the tree, and Developers have been hesitant to place much in the tier six category since we can only spend four points into tier six.

10) Only having two choices for ability scores is very limiting. The newest Epic Destiny: Divine Crusader, moves the standard to three options for a much more excellent ability score choice.




Potential Solutions to Epic Destiny Problems:


There are a variety of solutions with their own set of problems.


Solution A) Elimination of leveling up Epic Destinies would include the removal of limitations of traveling between Spheres. New players and old players with alt toons would feel less intimidated by reducing the grind towards an efficient toon. Given the number of past lives currently inside DDO, this reduction seems possible.

Problems with Solution A) Eliminating leveling up of Epic Destinies would eliminate Fate Points gained from Epic Destinies XP unless one programmed the Twist Solution to count those Fate points as being automatically earned, which would be very easy to do.



Solution B) Remove Epic Destiny Cores that increase Spellcasting Levels. Make Epic and Legendary Level grant +1 Spellcasting Levels for a toon. [This would not affect Max Caster Levels of any spells.]

The Problem with Solution B) A multiclass build would receive additional spellcaster levels for all their classes. A secondary spellcasting class might cast a spell at a much higher than expected spellcasting level. However, the existing Max Caster Levels would limit these spellcasting levels significantly. A Cleric 12/Wizard 8/Epic 10/Legendary 10 build would cast Acid Blast at level 10 (due to Max Caster Level limit of 10) and throw Cometfall at level 20 (due to the Max Caster Level limit of 20). The main concern for this would be a Cleric 15/Wizard 5/Epic 10/Legendary 10 toon that could cast Magic Missle and Chain Missle at full caster level while in the Shiradi Epic Destiny. Build such as this have already been made and fell out of favor with the many Shiradi balances. Magic Missle is well known as too powerful. Chain Missle does not work as written. If such a build were to be feared, more players would use it. The other concern is that Displacement does not have a Max Caster Limit and would last for (28 levels * 6 seconds = 2.8 minutes) [Reapers and other beings with True Seeing ignore Displacement].

Variation to Solution B) Remove Epic Destiny Cores that increase Spellcasting Levels. Make Epic and Legendary Level grant +1 Spellcasting Levels for a toon's primary class. [This would not affect Max Caster Levels of any spells.] This approach will harm very few Multiclass builds. A Fighter 12 Wizard 8 build would be casting Displacement lasting (8 levels *6 seconds = 48 seconds). Healing might be another concern with a Fighter 16/Favored Soul 4 casting Close Wounds at Caster Level 4 (instead of Max Caster Level 5 via Solution B). However, the lack of stacking Metamagics would make either version weak.

Addition problems with Solution B and Variation) Caster Levels are linked to Spell Penetration levels, making casting Save or Die spells at Drow in Menance of the Underdark more difficult. I think players manage okay with these quests already, and these same players would appreciate those extra Spell Pen levels for more challenging content such as Sharn.




Solution C) Replace the current auto granted 24 epic destiny points at level 20 with a progressing system of +4 epic destiny points per each Epic and Legendary Level. This model mimics the heroic tree system.

The Problem to Solution C) Players are accustomed to gaining all Epic Destiny Points at once and would need to adjust to the new system. It removes power at early levels but exceeds the ability at later levels. Players tend to struggle less at lower epic levels, so this rebalancing of points could help.

Additional Problems with Solution C) This would create less power for players at lower epic levels but more at higher epic levels. As discussed earlier, players seem to be doing okay at earlier epic levels but struggling more in the newer Expansions such as Sharn. We can expect new Legendary Dungeons to be just as hard or more challenging. These additional Epic Points displaces part of equipment expectations as the sole source of future power increase.

Variation to Solution C) Create a Hybrid Approach that grants a bundle of Epic Destiny Points (such as 20) at level 20 then awards the rest of the Epic Destiny Point at a rate of 3 per Epic or Legendary Level instead of 4. This combination is less of a shock to players.

Additional Problems with Solution C and Variation) The Epic Destiny Unyielding Sentinel has only room to spend 61 (67 if you count core) epic destiny points and which is less than the possible 80 epic destiny points which would be available to spend. The overflow might need to be finished inside a second Epic Destiny Tree, or some form of Twist Progression. One could assign all the Legendary Levels to grant epic destiny points into a secondary tree or some more flexible system.




Solution D) Change all Ability Score increases to tri-choice instead of bi-choice. Draconic & Magister - add Wis; Exalted Angel & Fatesinger - Add Int; Grandmaster & Shadowdance - add Str; when in doubt add Con or Str




Solution E) The Twist system could be converted along with the overflow points to spend in new ways. One could even eliminate the Twist system if one had some other way to spend Epic Destiny points into one or more additional trees. The current Twist system is simply a compromise variation of the heroic action points spent in three class trees.




Solution F) Adjusting the Epic Destiny system will make less focus on equipment and tomes for power. Spreading out power sources will help with Developmental Balancing.




Solution G) Eliminate the Twist System and allowing spending in two trees instead of one. Epic Past Lives are plenty strong enough already and need not be counted towards extra Epic Destiny Points. The Tomes of Fate could be converted directly into Tome of Epic Destiny Points.




Solution H) Hold off on Legendary Reincarnation till the next five expansions, and have it only award Cosmetic items and effects. This gives newer players a chance to catch up.



Solution I) Bring a comprise with these changes, possibly not related to the Epic Destiny itself. When Clash of Clans increased the level cap of Townhall from 12 to 13, the company performed multiple reductions of grind required, particularly to Townhall 1 thru 9. Should DDO do the same?




Solution J) It might be useful to reclassify a new tier of experience, perhaps named Legendary Experience enabling the three different systems to be adjusted over time separately if desired.



Solution K) Raising the level cap does have one real benefit for new players: equipment and character power creep tends to erode past life power. This includes a revised Epic Destiny system

Problems with solution K) However, if we add a new Legendary Reincarnation systems, the widening gap between alts and main toons will continue to increase.

Variation to solution K) Create a new Legendary Reincarnations system grant three heroic or racial past lives: 40 back to 1 grants all Barbarians Past Lives or all Shifter Past Lives in one swoop.







The top tier of the Feywild expansion adds:

Satyr Bard Hireling (Epic)*
Razorclaw Shifter Iconic
Winter Eladrin Cosmetics
(helm, armor, cloak)
Displacer Beast Cosmetic Pet
Black Unicorn Mount
Instant Teleport item to Feywild*
Tome of Destiny +1 for all characters


The Tome of Destiny is typed (Feywild) and therefore stacks with any other future or existing Tome of Destiny.

I feel this is a huge step forward for the Developers.
While it does not commit to any particular direction, it leave many possibilities open.

For example, if the devs decide to follow a variation of my examples of working on current epic destiny system, this alllow my suggested conversion of Tomes of Fate.
EI: your +3 Tome of Fate is transformed into a +3 Tome of Destiny (typed Fate) which would stack with the +1 Tome of Destiny (typed Feywild).

This allows the Devs to continue forward along a variation of (20 instant +3 per level with no barriers on spending) or another path if they choose to do so.

This also allows the Devs to continue selling these same tome of destiny (typed ____ expansion) in the future.

The above items listed were enough for me to choose the Complete Expansion Pack, and would likely continue such a purchase for future expansions.



Of importance, there was no code for this expansion, you were logged into one of your accounts.
This should prevent people from trying to hack DDO for expansion codes in today's turbulent environment.


Personally, if we never saw another Otto's Box and this more secure purchase is the new "deluxe purchase option", I would be very acceptive of that route.



Supposing, that the next expansion raised the level cap up 1 from 30 to 31 while providing an additional +1 Tome of Destiny typed Expansion X, while changing the epic destiny system to the (20+3 with unlimited spending model I showed earlier), how would the numbers look like:



Gaining Epic Levels:

Level 20
20 auto granted + 3 (fate typed) +1 (fey typed) + 1 (expansion X typed) = 25 points spendable on two epic destiny trees without any restrictions other than points spent on tree unlocks higher tiers as existing system

Level 21
28 points spendable on two trees

Level 22
31 points spendable on two trees

Level 23
34 points spendable on two trees

Level 24
37 points spendable on two trees

Level 25
40 points spendable on two trees

Level 26
43 points spendable on two trees

Level 27
46 points spendable on two trees

Level 28
49 points spendable on two trees

Level 28
52 points spendable on two trees

Level 29
55 points spendable on two trees

Level 30
58 points spendable on two trees

Level 31
61 points spendable on two trees


Please note that these points would not have any spending requirements other than:

Tier Two
After 4 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.

Tier Three
After 8 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.

Tier Four
After 12 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.

Tier Five
After 16 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.

Tier Six
After 20 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.



Please also note that such a system would remove all Twists of Fate but allow spending into two (or three if the Devs desired) trees instead of one.
This removed up to five slots with up to three points spend in each slot = loss of between 3 and 15 epic destiny points.
I do feel that the flexibility of choices within a second tree and the increase of points will more than make up for this loss.



Technically this would mean with every +1 level cap there would be +1 epic destiny point to spend upon reaching epic levels.

[IBCrabin]

A restating of thoughts on the matter



Problems with the current Epic Destiny System:


1) It added a system of the grind because Epic Reincarnation was not yet available. The struggle for earning Epic Destiny XP is no longer needed and puts an increased time sink for new toons for Alts and New Accounts. The Sphere System can make players play in low or empty destinies that decrease their initial enjoyment of Epic Levels and make them feel even more gimp.

2) The Sphere System makes it very difficult. Players have to earn thru desired Epic Destinies to reach their goals.

3) Once earned and unlocked, the entire Epic Destiny Trees and Spheres remain unlocked. The experience moves from a very tedious poor new toon experience into an explosion of power at level 20, followed by minimal progression except Feats and Epic Destiny Feats.

4) Spellcaster levels are granted by Epic Destiny Cores, which vary from tree to tree. The gaming experience again provides an explosion of Caster Levels (which provide Spell Pen) at level 20, followed by zero progression. Most spellcasters only benefit from these extra five caster levels from one-quarter of the total trees, limiting choices (Developer creativity).

5) The current system assumes that the level cap is 25. As the level cap grows beyond 25, the system becomes more and more distorted.

6) The current system grants 24 epic destiny points all at once. If you look at the existing heroic trees, we are awarded four action points for every level. While 24 epic destiny points made sense with the level cap at 25 (6*4=24), the growth in the game since then has out shaded the 24 points, which currently should be 40 (10*4=40) and raising even higher as the level cap increases.

7) The current Twist system will become more and more outdated as the level cap increases. With Epic Destiny points accumulation, more and more of a single tree will be full. The heroic system allows spending in additional trees, making it a much smoother mechanic.

8) Spellcasting in Epic Levels is challenging to balance. The limits of keeping Caster Levels inside certain Epic Destiny Cores increase this problem.

9) All Epic Destiny trees have far more potential than we can use. We don't spend enough to points to cover most of the tree, and Developers have been hesitant to place much in the tier six category since we can only spend four points into tier six.

10) Only having two choices for ability scores is very limiting. The newest Epic Destiny: Divine Crusader, moves the standard to three options for a much more excellent ability score choice.




Potential Solutions to Epic Destiny Problems:


There are a variety of solutions with their own set of problems.


Solution A) Elimination of leveling up Epic Destinies would include the removal of limitations of traveling between Spheres. New players and old players with alt toons would feel less intimidated by reducing the grind towards an efficient toon. Given the number of past lives currently inside DDO, this reduction seems possible.

Problems with Solution A) Eliminating leveling up of Epic Destinies would eliminate Fate Points gained from Epic Destinies XP unless one programmed the Twist Solution to count those Fate points as being automatically earned, which would be very easy to do.



Solution B) Remove Epic Destiny Cores that increase Spellcasting Levels. Make Epic and Legendary Level grant +1 Spellcasting Levels for a toon. [This would not affect Max Caster Levels of any spells.]

The Problem with Solution B) A multiclass build would receive additional spellcaster levels for all their classes. A secondary spellcasting class might cast a spell at a much higher than expected spellcasting level. However, the existing Max Caster Levels would limit these spellcasting levels significantly. A Cleric 12/Wizard 8/Epic 10/Legendary 10 build would cast Acid Blast at level 10 (due to Max Caster Level limit of 10) and throw Cometfall at level 20 (due to the Max Caster Level limit of 20). The main concern for this would be a Cleric 15/Wizard 5/Epic 10/Legendary 10 toon that could cast Magic Missle and Chain Missle at full caster level while in the Shiradi Epic Destiny. Build such as this have already been made and fell out of favor with the many Shiradi balances. Magic Missle is well known as too powerful. Chain Missle does not work as written. If such a build were to be feared, more players would use it. The other concern is that Displacement does not have a Max Caster Limit and would last for (28 levels * 6 seconds = 2.8 minutes) [Reapers and other beings with True Seeing ignore Displacement].

Variation to Solution B) Remove Epic Destiny Cores that increase Spellcasting Levels. Make Epic and Legendary Level grant +1 Spellcasting Levels for a toon's primary class. [This would not affect Max Caster Levels of any spells.] This approach will harm very few Multiclass builds. A Fighter 12 Wizard 8 build would be casting Displacement lasting (8 levels *6 seconds = 48 seconds). Healing might be another concern with a Fighter 16/Favored Soul 4 casting Close Wounds at Caster Level 4 (instead of Max Caster Level 5 via Solution B). However, the lack of stacking Metamagics would make either version weak.

Addition problems with Solution B and Variation) Caster Levels are linked to Spell Penetration levels, making casting Save or Die spells at Drow in Menance of the Underdark more difficult. I think players manage okay with these quests already, and these same players would appreciate those extra Spell Pen levels for more challenging content such as Sharn.




Solution C) Replace the current auto granted 24 epic destiny points at level 20 with a progressing system of +4 epic destiny points per each Epic and Legendary Level. This model mimics the heroic tree system.

The Problem to Solution C) Players are accustomed to gaining all Epic Destiny Points at once and would need to adjust to the new system. It removes power at early levels but exceeds the ability at later levels. Players tend to struggle less at lower epic levels, so this rebalancing of points could help.

Additional Problems with Solution C) This would create less power for players at lower epic levels but more at higher epic levels. As discussed earlier, players seem to be doing okay at earlier epic levels but struggling more in the newer Expansions such as Sharn. We can expect new Legendary Dungeons to be just as hard or more challenging. These additional Epic Points displaces part of equipment expectations as the sole source of future power increase.

Variation to Solution C) Create a Hybrid Approach that grants a bundle of Epic Destiny Points (such as 20) at level 20 then awards the rest of the Epic Destiny Point at a rate of 3 per Epic or Legendary Level instead of 4. This combination is less of a shock to players.

Additional Problems with Solution C and Variation) The Epic Destiny Unyielding Sentinel has only room to spend 61 (67 if you count core) epic destiny points and which is less than the possible 80 epic destiny points which would be available to spend. The overflow might need to be finished inside a second Epic Destiny Tree, or some form of Twist Progression. One could assign all the Legendary Levels to grant epic destiny points into a secondary tree or some more flexible system.




Solution D) Change all Ability Score increases to tri-choice instead of bi-choice. Draconic & Magister - add Wis; Exalted Angel & Fatesinger - Add Int; Grandmaster & Shadowdance - add Str; when in doubt add Con or Str




Solution E) The Twist system could be converted along with the overflow points to spend in new ways. One could even eliminate the Twist system if one had some other way to spend Epic Destiny points into one or more additional trees. The current Twist system is simply a compromise variation of the heroic action points spent in three class trees.




Solution F) Adjusting the Epic Destiny system will make less focus on equipment and tomes for power. Spreading out power sources will help with Developmental Balancing.

You can get rid of unlocking ED and capping ED for twists points and epic destiny feats, but this doesn't change the logic behind level gating is similar to leveling without ED at level 20. Imagine only having access to tier 1 of an ED every life at level 20. Each tier and core is unlock by level progression. If this was fun thing to do, people wouldn't be moaning and griping about leveling ED on new toons to grind out the fate points.

How many people remember what leveling ED was like at level 20 trying to run EE content and now reaper content? Sure you don't have to run in off ED for a twist, but how well does a tier 1 dreadnaught work in EE content?

Is the xp curve going to change as well? the xp required to reach level 24 is 2.7 mil. how many "dailies" or wilderness slayer is this to reach level 24 to unlock higher tier ED and core before people go back to something like the lord or dust chain or questing on EE / reaper?

With the current access to the full ED people can start running reaper right away at level 20. How is future change going to affect the way people play the game in epic? Already not very time efficient to run lvl 20 content at level - a lot of players try to get to 23 to 24 before doing any EE / reaper questing for xp.

level gating will end up pushing people to run dailies for xp than trying to run other content on EE / Reaper. Dailies will end up a bit slower than what they are now without the full ED at the player disposal.

Epic Content settings will have to be adjusted to reflect the reduction in power from not having access the highest tier of an ED.

[Silverleafeon]

level gating will end up pushing people to run dailies for xp than trying to run other content on EE / Reaper. Dailies will end up a bit slower than what they are now without the full ED at the player disposal.

I understand your point.
That is why this is in there:

Variation to Solution C) Create a Hybrid Approach that grants a bundle of Epic Destiny Points (such as 20) at level 20 then awards the rest of the Epic Destiny Point at a rate of 3 per Epic or Legendary Level instead of 4. This combination is less of a shock to players.

Level 20 = 20 epic destiny points
Level 21 = 23 epic destiny points <--- pretty much the power we have right now
Level 22 = 26 epic destiny points
Level 23 = 29 epic destiny points

[IBCrabin]

I understand your point.
That is why this is in there:



Level 20 = 20 epic destiny points
Level 21 = 23 epic destiny points <--- pretty much the power we have right now
Level 22 = 26 epic destiny points
Level 23 = 29 epic destiny points

Even if they give us the similar amount of the epic destiny points at level 21, this doesn't provide the same access people will have currently. We are assuming they are going to let us have dreadnaught blitz at level 21 which is tier 6 in dreadnaught.

If they level gate the tier and the cores, we won't have access to tier 6 for blitz at level 21.

While the current layout of ED doesn't work well for leveling in off ED for ePL, the actual enhancement in the tree works fine. The cores and the ED works fine throughout epic and at cap. No one is struggling with spell penetration if they have all the heroic PL for spell penetration. Having all relevant spell pen PLs was already how things were way back when U14 came out.

They could fix eTR by allowing anyone who reach level 30 cap to select any ePL they want without consideration for karma xp. This implementation wouldn't require a complete overhaul of the ED system.

Assuming this is level gate changes to the ED. They are not going to be able to make changes to the ED without changing the content and equipment to offset the lost of power a tier 6 blitz provide at level 20 to 21 for at level EE / reaper runs.

Changing the ED for level 30 because the current ED was designed for level 25 is a moot point for where the meta builds are at right now.

For example a tank.

Currently, people who runs reaper raid say tanks should be 600+ ac. This is mostly limited to 3 class splash (arti, paladin fighter) stacking 50% enhancement boost to Armor class from all 3 class. If you start adding more armor class in the new epic destinies and core, this doesn't change the 3 class splash will still be the predominant split for AC tank.

we can change ED to scale to level 30, but we won't get to the root of the design issue people are stacking different AC boost from multiple class for the legendary tier 2 raid.

You may end up with a 700 ac tank with the same 3 class split and this will still be the go to split for legendary tier 2 raid after they make changes to ED. hp + ac + prr > attack bonus for tank.

I am not ignoring the extra flexibility people will have if they decide to add AC to the new ED Cores, but for people who doesn't want to invest in 12 ePL for AC, they can continue using the predominant 3 class split and be a solid AC tank.

If they don't address attack bonus problem with hate tanking, changes to the ED will not encourage people to play a hate tank. people will most likely fall back to the same 3 class split to reach 600+ ac. This is a design issue with 4 stat equipment and some adjustments to epic destinies.

[Silverleafeon]

If they level gate the tier and the cores, we won't have access to tier 6 for blitz at level 21.

That is true.

If they give us 20 epic destiny points to spend and will not let us spend them to fill the tree up till we gain certain levels, that would be very awkward.
Of course, we would end up not spending extra points granted, which sounds really messed up.
We definitely don't want that path.


My theory on what should be done would be the current system in place that limits tiers by points spent without level restrictions.
Levels would only limit how many points are available.
Since technically the Developer of MotU intended for us to have 4 per epic level bunched up (Developers go look at the notes if you have them - there is a Dev post comprimising with players to raise this number from 20 to 24), a level 40 toon should have 80 epic destiny points.

[Silverleafeon]

Perhaps it might seem a bit greedy of me expecting the Developer to grant 20 epic destiny points right off the bat and then 3/level.
Well, all I can say is that we should have 40 epic destiny points for our level 30 toons, not 24.

Where are those points?
Please, fix the system to the way it was designed to be = 4/epic level.

Thank you.

[Silverleafeon]

Kind of silly really, I have been saying 4/level for years and no one listens...whatever.

[Mglaxix]

Perhaps it might seem a bit greedy of me expecting the Developer to grant 20 epic destiny points right off the bat and then 3/level.
Well, all I can say is that we should have 40 epic destiny points for our level 30 toons, not 24.

Where are those points?
Please, fix the system to the way it was designed to be = 4/epic level.

Thank you.

You can get 40 epic destiny points ETR and buy or roll and yes I have rolled tome of fates up to +3

https://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies

[chipotle47]

I was not at all thrilled to hear the initial announcement about the level cap increase, either. But consider this:

Without it, content will continue to pile up on itself at level 30. We're about to have three full expansions of content all at the same max character level; and the only meaningful progression will come from new loot. That's bonkers and, frankly, unsustainable. I have no stomach for running more and more "Legendary" content at level 30 just for marginal gains from new loot that slowly obsoletes old loot of the same minimum level.

If you need more gains, get more PL. If you only run one toon, start another one. If you only run one build, try another one.

For me, I like to play a variety of builds at a high level and change them around and try new things. I have 3 toons that I try to keep viable builds on and it's too much work to keep all of them up to date when there is a level cap increase. I finally have them where I want them, almost, and a level cap increase would just destroy that which I have been working towards and just started enjoying.

[Silverleafeon]

You can get 40 epic destiny points ETR and buy or roll and yes I have rolled tome of fates up to +3

https://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies

+1 Good point to bring up Fate Points do need compensation.

Epic Destiny Points = spent in tree for enhancements (Max 24 currently)
Fate Points = spent unlocking Twist Slots (Max 40 currently)

I went to the Fatespinner and requested "Reset my fate points".
Then I asked "I would like to manipulate my destiny."

Opened up, my completionist toon has 35 fate points (she is level 23 atm, enjoying the Cove).
Upon reaching
+2 for reaching level 29
+3 for reaching level 30

That will put her up to 40 fate points.


The new Epic Destiny System will need some sort of compensation for all the Fate Points Earned, especially if we have spending in additional trees (which will void the Twist System).
One could convert Past Lives over to Epic Destiny Points in some formula.

I think I discussed thus earlier in detail and came to the conclusion that eliminating the Twist system would yield a loss of up to five twists lost with potential of up to 3 epic destiny points lost per twist = 5 to 15 epic destiny points could be lost if the twists are removed in game.
There are 48 Epic Past Lives and up to a +3 tome of Fate.

The Tome of Fate could be converted straight into +3 Epic Destiny Points.
The Epic Past Lives are strong on their own merit, but I would not be adverse to some sort of ratio.
Such as (((5+15)/2)-3) * ((# Epic Past Lives Earned)/48) or a lesser number.
However, I would compromise with the Developers on this matter and simply convert the Fate Tomes into Epic Destiny Point Tomes.

[Mglaxix]

+1 Good point to bring up Fate Points do need compensation.

I love it when they reset when taking 30 and then I forget to reallocate them

[Silverleafeon]

I love it when they reset when taking 30 and then I forget to reallocate them

LOL +1
And I have just finished three dungeon runs and suddenly realize right before facing the boss!

[barecm]

Why? Global changes aren't a PART of the paid package. It's not like only the people who bought the expansion would be able to level to 31 or whatever it was going to be, so why does those things not happening at the same instant somehow reduce the value of the stuff that's in the expansion content? If you go out for dinner and a movie and find out that the restaurant is closed because someone set the kitchen on fire, that doesn't mean the movie tickets are cheaper. :P

Can you advance to Epic levels without the Caught in the Web expansion? I actually don’t know since I’ve always had it, but I assume not. The short answer to your questions is that SSG would list raising the level cap as a marketed bullet point upon release along with ever other thing that is new or changed. So, yes, when I hear about things dropping out, it certainly devalues the overall content being delivered for sure. Level cap increase is probably more important long term that content you will exhaust in a few weeks of item grinding.

[Silverleafeon]

Can you advance to Epic levels without the Caught in the Web expansion?

Yes.


I logged into my F2P account that gained the free packs and earned both 99 pt MotU & Shadowfell dungeons.
This account can reach epic levels via Free to Play packs and the bonus packs, however I will need to purchase the Epic Destinies from the DDO store for 995 (or less if I find it on sale).
If the MotU Expansion sells on the DDO Market for 1000 or less on Cyber Monday (unlikely), that would be an option.
The Expansion contains Epic Destines.


So, this account (or any other F2P account) can have toons reaching level 30, but it will not progress thru earning Epic Destinies.
Under my proposals seen above, I recommended removing the new player leveling up Epic Destiny Grind.
That would allow a new player to venture into Epic Levels without any lost time if said player later on chose to purchase the Epic Destiny premier feature for 995 (or less if on sale).

There are a scattering of Free to Play packs thru the game, and resetting XP makes life so much easier than past circumstances for F2P toons.

Also, one can farm out Tokens of the Twelve for a free TR.


(Personal Goals for this account is farming out enough points to purchase Epic Destinies next and looking for sales therein.
This will include visiting different servers (including Hardcore) and deleting/reincarnating one of my three toons to reset favor as desired.)

[barecm]

Yes.


I logged into my F2P account that gained the free packs and earned both 99 pt MotU & Shadowfell dungeons.
This account can reach epic levels via Free to Play packs and the bonus packs, however I will need to purchase the Epic Destinies from the DDO store for 995 (or less if I find it on sale).
If the MotU Expansion sells on the DDO Market for 1000 or less on Cyber Monday (unlikely), that would be an option.
The Expansion contains Epic Destines.


So, this account (or any other F2P account) can have toons reaching level 30, but it will not progress thru earning Epic Destinies.
Under my proposals seen above, I recommended removing the new player leveling up Epic Destiny Grind.
That would allow a new player to venture into Epic Levels without any lost time if said player later on chose to purchase the Epic Destiny premier feature for 995 (or less if on sale).

There are a scattering of Free to Play packs thru the game, and resetting XP makes life so much easier than past circumstances for F2P toons.

Also, one can farm out Tokens of the Twelve for a free TR.


(Personal Goals for this account is farming out enough points to purchase Epic Destinies next and looking for sales therein.
This will include visiting different servers (including Hardcore) and deleting/reincarnating one of my three toons to reset favor as desired.)

Cool. Never knew what happens if you did not have the pack and hit 20.

Also, very aware of the token thing as I tr fairly regularly, by my standards, and need to grind those out each life.

[Silverleafeon]

Also, very aware of the token thing as I tr fairly regularly, by my standards, and need to grind those out each life.

+1 Well Said
I agree, although I spend money on some of my accounts, I also feel its wasteful to spend cash on TR Hearts and try to farm those tokens.

[cacyreus]

In summary, both the Level Cap Increase and the Epic Destiny Revamp are no longer planned to be released in conjunction with the Feywild Expansion. Instead, these features are tentatively planned to be completed in 2021 (Subject to change). We understand if some are disappointed, we are as well, but we hope you understand the need to get changes of this type right and not rush them out the door.

The important question is: Can SSG develop DDO beyond the Reincarnation system? How many more hamster wheels are you planning on throwing at us? How much more do you want to spread out and increase the rift between players?
Focus on server merge, focus on evening out the game in a way that new players can sort of catch up faster to long standing players, to reduce the power gap between them and increase competitiveness --> apply the xp system of 1.9M, 2.85M and 3.8M to the first 3 lives on each class/race/iconic, instead of on the first 3 character lives.