Level Cap Increase Postponed

[KoobTheProud]

The important question is: Can SSG develop DDO beyond the Reincarnation system? How many more hamster wheels are you planning on throwing at us? How much more do you want to spread out and increase the rift between players?

These are great questions and they are likely the key to DDO's survival moving forward. The reincarnation system was a necessary evil at one point that then turned into a main plan of operation when a lot of low-hanging fruit was available in that system. The original text on the Completionist feat read "You win DDO!" It was just flavor text but it captured the spirit of what being a heroic completionist meant.

There's no low-hanging fruit left in the reincarnation system and the grinds involved have gotten absurd enough that only a small subset of the player base is really aiming at them or already done. This subset of people can't keep DDO going much longer even if new grinds are thrown at them.

The rest of us just don't care other than when the reincarnations thrown in our path really damage the power structure of the game as some of the recent ones have done. Then the hamster wheel becomes the enemy and it turns us off over time.

What we want is more interesting play options, more story, more of a game as opposed to the horrid grind that DDO has become.

Server merges are great because they re-compress the player base back into meaningful cohorts, however they won't resolve the long-term problem - which is that Turbine and SSG think the grind is the game whereas most of their players think the grind is the obstacle to a real game.

[SirValentine]

The important question is: Can SSG develop DDO beyond the Reincarnation system? How many more hamster wheels are you planning on throwing at us? How much more do you want to spread out and increase the rift between players?

Let's see: Alignment reincarnation. Reaper reincarnation. Guild reincarnation. And, of course, the yet-to-be-defined Legendary reincarnation.

[SirValentine]

I logged into my F2P account that gained the free packs and earned both 99 pt MotU & Shadowfell dungeons.

It's too bad these 99-point sales were never actually in the Store at a time when one knew one needed them. They should not have made the sale overlap with the period when the content was freely available.

[Captain_Wizbang]

The important question is: Can SSG develop DDO beyond the Reincarnation system? How many more hamster wheels are you planning on throwing at us? How much more do you want to spread out and increase the rift between players?
Focus on server merge, focus on evening out the game in a way that new players can sort of catch up faster to long standing players, to reduce the power gap between them and increase competitiveness --> apply the xp system of 1.9M, 2.85M and 3.8M to the first 3 lives on each class/race/iconic, instead of on the first 3 character lives.

These are great questions and they are likely the key to DDO's survival moving forward. The reincarnation system was a necessary evil at one point that then turned into a main plan of operation when a lot of low-hanging fruit was available in that system. The original text on the Completionist feat read "You win DDO!" It was just flavor text but it captured the spirit of what being a heroic completionist meant.

There's no low-hanging fruit left in the reincarnation system and the grinds involved have gotten absurd enough that only a small subset of the player base is really aiming at them or already done. This subset of people can't keep DDO going much longer even if new grinds are thrown at them.

The rest of us just don't care other than when the reincarnations thrown in our path really damage the power structure of the game as some of the recent ones have done. Then the hamster wheel becomes the enemy and it turns us off over time.

What we want is more interesting play options, more story, more of a game as opposed to the horrid grind that DDO has become.

Server merges are great because they re-compress the player base back into meaningful cohorts, however they won't resolve the long-term problem - which is that Turbine and SSG think the grind is the game whereas most of their players think the grind is the obstacle to a real game.

2 good posts.

I say its time for lateral development vs vertical.

[Silverleafeon]

[joke]



Spell of Awesomeness

Appears in the Capestone of Feydark Illusionist to any Kobold race pure Sorcerer with Epic Spell Focus [Illusion]
Requirements: Must be Character Level 40 and have a Completionist Feat

Spell Components: Random items from your various banks will be sold to pay 1 Billion Gold pieces in value.

Effect: You are immediately teleported to the top of the Kobold Tower of Enlightenment, where you face the Ultimate Leader in a Battle of courage and wits.

More significant Effect: After defeating the Great Leader, you are presented with the Weapon of Awesomeness, which is so great and powerful that it erases your mind and vaporizes your body. Your toon is forever deleted from the Game.

Even more significant Effect: In memory of your awesomeness, 10,000 kobolds will mail you fan letters of awe and wonder.

Most significant Effect: Your character's name will be inscribed upon A Huge Gilded Plaque (at Kobold eye level) labeled "Kobold never forget."

After effect, upon the Kobold High Priest of Chaos transcribing your character's name upon the "Kobold never forget" Huge Gilded Plaque, the Ultimate Leader will respawn in the Kobold Tower of Enlightenment.

Additional After Effects, the Aniversary Party will reopen for a single minute in Celebration of this great event along with a moment of silence (via lag) upon all servers.



[/joke]

[Silverleafeon]

It's too bad these 99-point sales were never actually in the Store at a time when one knew one needed them. They should not have made the sale overlap with the period when the content was freely available.

Perhaps they can do a one-time blink catch up sale on Cyber Monday?

[Kinerd]

The important question is: Can SSG develop DDO beyond the Reincarnation system? How many more hamster wheels are you planning on throwing at us? How much more do you want to spread out and increase the rift between players?
Focus on server merge, focus on evening out the game in a way that new players can sort of catch up faster to long standing players, to reduce the power gap between them and increase competitiveness --> apply the xp system of 1.9M, 2.85M and 3.8M to the first 3 lives on each class/race/iconic, instead of on the first 3 character lives.

this is one of the most striking things about coming back to DDO after playing other games - every one has some form of on-ramping making it easier for new players to catch up, and there's just nothing like that here. someone starting DDO today gets the same Ember Rapier and Battleworn Chainshirt i got 10 years ago.

although i certainly wouldn't mind the reduced xp per life version (shorten the distance), the more common thing i've seen is items and boosts (increase the speed). what if all new accounts got...
-double XP (only for their first month)
-a permanent 3/day flask of mnemonic enhancement for casters and a permanent 3/day flask of cure critical wounds for melees
-50k plat
-an ML 10 box of a +4 Holy 3 of Bludgeoning 3 or 77 spellpower of 11 lore weapon, a +6 Con item and a +6 primary stat item by class, and 30 Striding boots

every new system puts new players further behind and at a worse relative speed. these would be very easy to generate, make a huge difference, and new players still wouldn't have a prayer of catching up even with an old player rolling a new character, so it seems to me like everyone would be happy with them

.

and just briefly: this is assuming we want new players to be able to catch up faster to old players. i would say yes because groups are fun and adding players to a game is indispensable to its ability to survive long term.

[Silverleafeon]

Let's see: Alignment reincarnation. Reaper reincarnation. Guild reincarnation. And, of course, the yet-to-be-defined Legendary reincarnation.

I hope we hold off of Legendary Reincarnation until the next 5 expansions, and when it occurs that it only offers cosmetic features.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Let's see: Alignment reincarnation. Reaper reincarnation. Guild reincarnation. And, of course, the yet-to-be-defined Legendary reincarnation.

None of those are going to matter unless SSG can fix the massive Otto's Box duping problem that lets people pick up a dozen Past Lives in an afternoon.

[Dreppo]

Let's see: Alignment reincarnation. Reaper reincarnation. Guild reincarnation. And, of course, the yet-to-be-defined Legendary reincarnation.

Gender reincarnation.

Hairstyle reincarnation.

[Elfishski]

this is one of the most striking things about coming back to DDO after playing other games - every one has some form of on-ramping making it easier for new players to catch up, and there's just nothing like that here. someone starting DDO today gets the same Ember Rapier and Battleworn Chainshirt i got 10 years ago.

although i certainly wouldn't mind the reduced xp per life version (shorten the distance), the more common thing i've seen is items and boosts (increase the speed). what if all new accounts got...
-double XP (only for their first month)
-a permanent 3/day flask of mnemonic enhancement for casters and a permanent 3/day flask of cure critical wounds for melees
-50k plat
-an ML 10 box of a +4 Holy 3 of Bludgeoning 3 or 77 spellpower of 11 lore weapon, a +6 Con item and a +6 primary stat item by class, and 30 Striding boots

every new system puts new players further behind and at a worse relative speed. these would be very easy to generate, make a huge difference, and new players still wouldn't have a prayer of catching up even with an old player rolling a new character, so it seems to me like everyone would be happy with them

and just briefly: this is assuming we want new players to be able to catch up faster to old players. i would say yes because groups are fun and adding players to a game is indispensable to its ability to survive long term.

Completely agree about the lack of on-ramping, though a word of warning: For a new player, it's overwhelming to get a pile of free stuff because you don't know what any of it does and what's good vs what's useless. I started a LOTRO character while everything was free and very nearly gave up on it quickly because of inventory just getting full of free stuff that I didn't want to throw out but didn't know how to use. Same as for someone coming into DDO I'm sure.

A 50% XP bonus is great to inspire vets to start an alt account or get started on a new server, it's the worst possible thing you can do to a new player who doesn't know the systems yet, doesn't know what stats are useful, hasn't got a clue what enhancements are good, and needs to learn those through the low level quests.

So by all means give something to help out, great idea, but
(a) try and avoid clutter - not many special items - a re-useable not-very-good healing potion and/or mnemonic potion per account, mini-pack of just one or two class-appropriate items delivered when you reach a given level for the first time on a new account, and some extra plat on taking each level for the first time are great,
(b) make the first character first life experience better, not faster (e.g. make the freebie collectable/gem/ingredient bags a larger version)
(c) try to focus the boosts like more XP on people who have 1-3 past lives to catch up faster to the uber-completionists. Bonus weekends "New players and alts! 50% XP for characters with <10 past lives!", double up on heroic/racial lives up to a certain number, there wouldn't even be anything wrong with e.g. giving characters +30 HP and taking them away one at a time per past life, as they're earning much better bonuses, but it would make those first few lives easier

[Kinerd]

Completely agree about the lack of on-ramping, though a word of warning: For a new player, it's overwhelming to get a pile of free stuff because you don't know what any of it does and what's good vs what's useless. I started a LOTRO character while everything was free and very nearly gave up on it quickly because of inventory just getting full of free stuff that I didn't want to throw out but didn't know how to use. Same as for someone coming into DDO I'm sure.

A 50% XP bonus is great to inspire vets to start an alt account or get started on a new server, it's the worst possible thing you can do to a new player who doesn't know the systems yet, doesn't know what stats are useful, hasn't got a clue what enhancements are good, and needs to learn those through the low level quests.

So by all means give something to help out, great idea, but
(a) try and avoid clutter - not many special items - a re-useable not-very-good healing potion and/or mnemonic potion per account, mini-pack of just one or two class-appropriate items delivered when you reach a given level for the first time on a new account, and some extra plat on taking each level for the first time are great,
(b) make the first character first life experience better, not faster (e.g. make the freebie collectable/gem/ingredient bags a larger version)
(c) try to focus the boosts like more XP on people who have 1-3 past lives to catch up faster to the uber-completionists. Bonus weekends "New players and alts! 50% XP for characters with <10 past lives!", double up on heroic/racial lives up to a certain number, there wouldn't even be anything wrong with e.g. giving characters +30 HP and taking them away one at a time per past life, as they're earning much better bonuses, but it would make those first few lives easier

yes, i too have played games that give a full set (or two!) of gear every five levels and it's quite suffocating

i disagree on the XP bonus though. i think lingering in low level quests teaches the OPPOSITE of good building by emphasizing effects that are good there and trash at high levels, and deemphasizing those that are the opposite. between the very cheap enhancement swaps and the free LR heart, i feel like it's impossible for someone to run themselves into a dead end at level 12 or whatever. also, i think the enjoyment advantage of having just one high level character is very very high - getting to see more content, being able to farm stuff so much easier, etc.

i definitely agree the past life system needs to be strongly accelerated in the early going, but i can also see how that would be a much more long term project than 'here's a few items and an XP boost, go nuts'

[devashta]

None of those are going to matter unless SSG can fix the massive Otto's Box duping problem that lets people pick up a dozen Past Lives in an afternoon.

Remove the XP penalty for second and third life+ toons , make all past lives, reaper points, rewards system account-based and players might not need them in the first place. Add a server merge to that, and come up with a model so a new player doesn't have to spend 200$+ on day one.

For the love of God, keep the level cap at 30.

[Valerianus]

Let's see: Alignment reincarnation. Reaper reincarnation. Guild reincarnation. And, of course, the yet-to-be-defined Legendary reincarnation.

Gender reincarnation.

Hairstyle reincarnation.

they'll give us the kobold playable race players are asking for years. when cap will be 40 the kobold draconic disciple will be the first "paragon" race released. like iconics, but instead of 15-30, 25-40. because kobolds still hate you.

[Silverleafeon]

When Clash of Clans increased the level cap of Townhall from 12 to 13, the company performed multiple reductions of grind required, particularly to Townhall 1 thru 9.

Should DDO do the same?

It might be useful to reclassify a new tier of experience, perhaps named Legendary Experience enabling the three different systems to be adjusted over time separately if desired.

[Valerianus]

When Clash of Clans increased the level cap of Townhall from 12 to 13, the company performed multiple reductions of grind required, particularly to Townhall 1 thru 9.

Should DDO do the same?

It might be useful to reclassify a new tier of experience, perhaps named Legendary Experience enabling the three different systems to be adjusted over time separately if desired.

if there will be some "legendary destinies" or the like as a p2p feature (i hope this time they'll realize that basic char advancement should be free. destinies are basic char advancement, playing epics with no destinies is unthinkable, not an option), the epic destinies should become free, or at least have the price massively reduced. it's already bad, and it always has been, asking the level 20 tax. a new level 30 tax would be insane.

think about it. a new player reach level 20. you want to go on? pay. you don't pay? ok, you can tr. ok then farm tokens with your subpar gimped toon. a player should be pushed forward, you just reached a milestone, level 20, it's exciting i did it! now onward!!! nope, you got an impediment, no milestone, tr and go back to 1 now or pay. excitement: killed. the game should tell you yeah keep on playing here and now this new epic thing and hook you more. i'm perfectly aware that you can use free ddo points from favor for the destinies, but it's not how it is, it's about how it is perceived. a double hindrance, no matter what you choose, there's the risk to un-hook players. and let them spend those points on some adventure pack, more grouping options for them means more grouping option for all of them, the game will be more alive and they'll spend on something else, more pricey stuff, like, tomes.

seriously, think about it, a possible talk with a new player, like:
"uhm yeah in this game the level cap is atm 35 you know, but if you want to play it you have to pay first at 20 and then again at 30.....or maybe you can tr back to 1. you need tokens, get help you need it. btw gratz for getting to 20."

it's not about giving stuff out for free, it's about the game being more engaging and fluid and pleasant, thus worth spending money on and keep on playing.

[Kinerd]

if there will be some "legendary destinies" or the like as a p2p feature (i hope this time they'll realize that basic char advancement should be free. destinies are basic char advancement, playing epics with no destinies is unthinkable, not an option), the epic destinies should become free, or at least have the price massively reduced. it's already bad, and it always has been, asking the level 20 tax. a new level 30 tax would be insane.

think about it. a new player reach level 20. you want to go on? pay. you don't pay? ok, you can tr. ok then farm tokens with your subpar gimped toon. a player should be pushed forward, you just reached a milestone, level 20, it's exciting i did it! now onward!!! nope, you got an impediment, no milestone, tr and go back to 1 now or pay. excitement: killed. the game should tell you yeah keep on playing here and now this new epic thing and hook you more. i'm perfectly aware that you can use free ddo points from favor for the destinies, but it's not how it is, it's about how it is perceived. a double hindrance, no matter what you choose, there's the risk to un-hook players. and let them spend those points on some adventure pack, more grouping options for them means more grouping option for all of them, the game will be more alive and they'll spend on something else, more pricey stuff, like, tomes.

seriously, think about it, a possible talk with a new player, like:
"uhm yeah in this game the level cap is atm 35 you know, but if you want to play it you have to pay first at 20 and then again at 30.....or maybe you can tr back to 1. you need tokens, get help you need it. btw gratz for getting to 20."

it's not about giving stuff out for free, it's about the game being more engaging and fluid and pleasant, thus worth spending money on and keep on playing.

this is another point that i think should be emphasized whether we do the clearly worse level cap increase or the clearly better and more fun and nicely fragrant legendary destinies version - the $$ to play the game keeps going up, which is not great math when the $$ to play New Game X is not. the most direct way to handle this to my mind is inclusion - Future Expansion X includes legendary destinies and MotU and epic destinies. Future Quest Pack Y includes itself and Seal of Shan To Kor (or whatever wildly out of date pack)

this cannibalizes some of SSG's business, yes, but better to eat a piece yourself than let someone else eat it all

[Silverleafeon]

if there will be some "legendary destinies" or the like as a p2p feature.

+1 well said
No Legendary Destinies Thank you.

I personally I am not a fan of any sort of Legendary Destinies when we can expand the current Epic Destiny System with revisions that I posted earlier.
If that requires extending Epic Experience up until level 40 instead of reclassifying 30+ as Legendary Experience, I find that a minor detail best left to coding experts.

...

+1

I agree that future money should be expansions based, that should be enough.

[VinoeWhines]

In Favor of Level increase AND Legendary Destiny Feats.

Some people just say hard no to this.

There should be a PRO/CON list and then we can add to this list, instead of having 40 pages of good ideas that will get lost in the pages.
What are the fears of increasing the levels incrementally by +2? each year?
What are the fears of increasing to Legendary Destiny Feats?


Don't tie them to any reincarnation penalties/losses when added? Have them be there own separate thing?
Though I agree very much so that the game/dungeon design should be looked into deeply, as well as also getting around to fixing certain Not WAI's.

Thanks again for "The quality of life" changes for they have been received with much gratitude.
How about adding a "scroll satchel 10/10 items" quality of life for inventory savings and look into raising carrying capacity increases over level 20 bump.

• PROS
  
  
  
  
  
  
• CONS

[Silverleafeon]

+1

What are the fears of increasing the levels incrementally by +2? each year?

If DDO does want to raise the level cap, they really ought to savor each level cap increase and make it as small as practically possible.
There is no reason to push towards level 40 and the idea of legendary Reincarnation when they already have a steady diet of new racial and new iconic past lives.
Even if we never add another class to DDO, there is more than enough Reincarnation available.

I would decrease to +1 level cap per expansion.
I consider +2 level cap per expansion is the absolute top edge.
I don't expect an expansion more rapidly than every 1.5 years, or "whenever it is ready."

The Devs should be aware that pushing quickly to 40 will leave zero options for later except an unthinkable level 50.
Slow creep, if this is happening, will give much more options on your plate. Try +1 level because you can always move to +2 for later expansions.

What are the fears of increasing to Legendary Destiny Feats?

I am not sure what your direction is here, but since there is only one set of Legendary Feats = Scion, you ask if we can have more than one Scion Feat?
I see no reason not to offer the purchase of an additional Scion Feat at Level 33, Level 36, and Level 39.
These are already developed and indeed should stack with each other.
The Devs could replace offering an ordinary feat slot at those levels.

If you suggest adding a new Legendary Destiny System, then I repeat that my Epic Destiny proposed fixes would be preferable to me.
We cannot move the level cap further without addressing the many issues our current system has.

Don't tie them to any reincarnation penalties/losses when added?

As stated multiple times, the current reincarnation systems will not be affected by a level cap increase.
Heroic & Racial = level 20
Iconic & Epic = level 30
regardless of the current level cap.

Check Cordovan's Dev Tracker for details.

Have them be there own separate thing?

I assume you are discussing Legendary Reincarnation being a separate system from any other reincarnation system?

There are several ways to look at this:

Legendary Reincarnation could offer a player to go from 40 to 1 with double (or some other logical ratio) existing past lives, creating a new Reincarnation system that does not increase the number of past life feats inside the game.
[For example, go from 40 back to new life and gain +2 Heroic Past Life feats.]


Legendary Reincarnation could offer a decorative player feature only.
Look at how successful the video game Overwatch has become with cosmetic features and bragging rights being the only incentives.

These options are favorable to me because they do not increase the distance between a new/alt player and a completionist toon.

I do not favor a high powered new legendary reincarnation system (or increasing power in current, past lives) because power increase fights against the only real advantage of level cap increase = dismissing partial strength of past life feats due to power creep by higher level equipment which is easily farmed by 3rd life toons.

Though I agree very much so that the game/dungeon design should be looked into deeply, as well as also getting around to fixing certain Not WAI's.

Quality of Life, Bug Fixes, and System overview are always welcome.

Thanks again for "The quality of life" changes, for they have been received with much gratitude.

I agree.

How about adding a "scroll satchel 10/10 items" quality of life for inventory savings and look into raising carrying capacity increases over level 20 bump.

A scroll case has been asked for before and likely considered by developers already.
Sure, if possible.
I kind of doubt it will happen but will happily purchase one if it does.

So, are you asking Epic Favor Backpack space?
I am all for more space, even if store-bought.