2020 bow user update discussion

[Captain_Wizbang]

As stated, we will see some type of change in U47 or Feywild expansion.

As per our continuing discussion on ranged/bow users, I think we missed the mark on what SSG has in mind.

My new theory is......

Elemental damage increases w/ ranged power, stacks from all available sources.

Damage increases w/ cores and feats that stack w/ ranged power.

As for alacrity, thanks to Yamani and others, we now know it's fubarred. Fix this asap please.

I championed the Bowman tree (partly because it's my concept) with hopes we could get SSG feedback and possible consideration. For whatever reason no response has been forthcoming. That's OK, I make proposals as best I can, and I know most of them are solid. So, if not a new tree, and no info from SSG yet, here's my newest idea.

Adjusting everything except RoF, many shot & IPS. If that's the route we take, then let's discuss it.

[Seph1roth5]

Didn't the devs specifically say they weren't going to be doing anything with bows for 47 or the feywild?

[Steelstar]

Didn't the devs specifically say they weren't going to be doing anything with bows for 47 or the feywild?

Correct.

While we do still have plans for further updates to Bows, those changes will not be in U47 or the Feywild expansion.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Correct.

That's OK, I bought a Mror Hold Eternal wand of feather dusting. Those ranged builds can stay on the shelf for a while longer.

So SS, when you DO update, what areas will you concentrate on?

[LT218]

That's OK, I bought a Mror Hold Eternal wand of feather dusting. Those ranged builds can stay on the shelf for a while longer.

So SS, when you DO update, what areas will you concentrate on?

After the past few months of them nerfing pretty much every aspect of ranged builds to the tune of a combined 30% or more reduction in DPS, the best thing they could do is add a stance that lets ranged builds make melee attacks with strikethrough on their bows and thrown weapons weapons. They'd do more DPS and get better AoE that way.

[Kaboom2112]

Deepwood is fine.

AA . . . needs more damage scaling with the elemental stuffs, including letting them crit.

The issue is Bows suck, not the class or the trees.

[Pandjed]

One of the main-issues with ranged combat is, that while it's supposed to be one playstyle, we have 3 types of weapons (with 3 subcategories), all with specific feats that strengthens a certain kind of weapons outside the crit profiles (manyshot, rapid reload, ten thousand stars, multitude of missiles, ten thousand stars, shuriken expertise, quick draw, etc.).

• Throwing weapons (with shuriken as their own subcategory)
• Bows
• Crossbows (with repeater and double-x-bows as subcategories)

In melee, we have three distinctions how they make damage: Single weapon via attack speed, TWF via offhand, and THF via multiple targets and more ability bonus (may need some adjustments for balancing, but they have different approaches). In ranged, even before any tree applies, we don't have that and it sums up to be a pretty messy thing.

Thrown weapons have their attack speed, but also their doubleshot, unless it's a shuriken, then you gain an additional throw instead of doubleshot, that won't benefit from doubleshot, which makes it a tad better (as you have the chance to proc 2 shots, one via doubleshot and one via shuriken expertise), but shurkens aren't that powerful to begin with, and maybe revamping Shuriken Expertise to Throwing Expertise may be better, if it granted shuriken an additional benefit or just doubled the doubleshot instead and... plus active feats that increases ranged power and doubleshot even more.
Funnily enough, Brutal Throw is a very special feat as it allows to use STR for attack, while STR is the default to damage bonus.

X-bows just removes reload animations, though having a universal tree gives it currently the profile of dealing much damage fast. At least usual x-bows, while repeater are fast, but lack the damage (even in their intended trees) of double-x-bow, and great crossbows which are supposed to be the exotic version of h/l-x-bows are sadly without any identity other than dealing higher base damage with much less extradamage slower than the double-x-counterparts (though mechanic gives INT to damage, so... 4 points less harper tree, cause Known the Angles is too good to pass by?).
No base damage stat, easily fixed by enhancement trees for attack and damage.

Bows, on the other hand, are a mess. We have a feat that adds STR to damage (though nowadays with the universal trees it's almost neglectable, though ranger get it as a bonus), we have a feat that adds them as ki-weapons and use WIS for attack (which is only for monks, nowadays, as Falconry does the same and add WIS as damage later on), a similar Ranged Power and Doubleshot boost as throwing weapons, and a (currently apparently non-working) bonus to attack speed with Shot on the Run, a feat that's usually ignored by me, because it takes two feats that aren't really tied to ranged combat.

With ranged combat that divided but the same, it may make more sense to clean that up a bit and either commit to certain ideas for specific ranged weapons or instead streamlining some of the stuff, so that ranged combat is one playstyle with focused feat choices, that get nuanced and added to by enhancement trees.

[kanordog]

The issue is Bows suck, not the class or the trees.

Bows don't suck.
They are a weapon with 1d8/20x3 profile exactly like warhammers and battle axes.

What is bad is the lack of abilities you can have with warhammers and battle axes.
small issues:
- exra damage from ability modifier like SWF provides
- extra crit range like Knight's training does
big issues:
- proper, spammable AOE like cleaves
- attack speed increase capped
- attacks landing properly such as arrows flying into nowhere&not being able to hit mobs below waist height of the character

If they could fix the miss-shot and the speed issue (maybe add doubleshot when wielding bows?) bows would be more useful. And with some good AOE they would be awesome.

[CaptainSpacePony]

The issue is Bows suck, not the class or the trees.

Truth.

[GoldyGopher]

Setting the Way back machine for 2004, Closed Beta for a quick history lesson on why the Bow Mechanics ... suck.

A player from today would be amazed by the bow mechanics in 2004. Bows were king in closed beta, everyone played them, okay not everyone a few players got on the forums and chanted NERF NERF NERF.

The problem bow mechanics weren't overpowered, but a major flaw in the monster AI raised Bows to the pinnacle of DPS. The flaw was in the eyes of the dev team at the time, nigh unfixable. At best it would take thousands of hours to correct, at worst it require the entire monster AI script/program to be rewritten. After making that determination Turbine (under pressure from Atari) determined the flaw in the AI was going to go live. To the delight of the players chanting NERF NERF NERF, Bow Mechanics were Nerfed. Three maybe four feats were scrapped, and the two of the three remaining feats were reworked.

What was the AI Flaw you ask. There were several flaws but the absolute worst issue was that mob AI failed and the mobs froze if the attacking Playing Character was not on the same horizontal plane as the mobs. In layman's terms standing on a box mowing down Kobolds (The level cap was 10) trivialized virtually all the content in the game for Bow Users. So yes the inability of a Kobold to find the source of ranged attacks in 2004 is why a number of what we considered flaws today were introduced into the game as features. In a game where mushrooms and doors are distinctly related there were bizarre reasons why Arcane Attacks and other ranged attacks were not affected by the same problem. It is also the reason that box/crates/barrels break when a melee character attempts to fight on top of them.

Fast Forward two maybe three years, a well like developer named Codog took over the ranged attack systems in game and went to town. He coordinated his work with another developer who was responsible for Mob AI and scripting. Between the two of them dozens of bugs in ranged combat and the mob AI were cleaned up. I don't think I am over stating it when I say it was a labor of love for Codog. It wasn't thousands of hours, just hundreds, which is still a lot. Much of it was being done in his spare time.

Codog was working on revamping not only Bow mechanics, but thrown and crossbow mechanics as well, he decreed it had to be rebuilt from the ground up to correct the Nerfs of yesteryear. Codog left Turbine for personal reasons, which if you were around at the time you know what they were before the work was completed. What he was working on was scrapped. There just wasn't the time (ie money) available to fix such an ingrained issue with the bow mechanics.

It gets worse, because the AI flaws were for the most part were corrected and Bows floundered, but changes were made to thrown and crossbow mechanics over the years to make them more accessible to players.

Today we still have the same problem, the amount of time the development team would have to put into revamping bow mechanics is so high it is not going to get approved in its entirety. Small incremental steps are what we are going to see.

[Yamani]

Correct.

If anything can you at least fix some of the bugs...

• Elf AA and AA have 2 different final strikes (sorry guys! :P)
  Heavy Draws +5 damage doesn't show up or is applying always

Some non bugs but annoyances:

• AA cores give non stacking outdated +1 enhance bonus.
  5th core gives +2 magic item enhance(should be changed to a stacking +2 for like magic fang)
  DC's no longer able to reach where they need to be for current content.

[Eantarus]

I championed the Bowman tree (partly because it's my concept) with hopes we could get SSG feedback and possible consideration.

They are never going to consider a player-designed tree.

The dev team does not want you doing their jobs for them.

[ned_ellis]

If anything can you at least fix some of the bugs...

• Elf AA and AA have 2 different final strikes (sorry guys! :P)
  Heavy Draws +5 damage doesn't show up or is applying always

Some non bugs but annoyances:

• AA cores give non stacking outdated +1 enhance bonus.
  5th core gives +2 magic item enhance(should be changed to a stacking +2 for like magic fang)
  DC's no longer able to reach where they need to be for current content.

These would be great points to start with along with sorting the rate of fire stacking (shot on the run and...does Improved Archers Focus +10% actually work?! ).
I would add that new named bow design should really be avoiding duplicate effects and the 'dissappearing arrows' needs to be fixed.

My 'easy' personal proposal is that spell crit and mulpliers could be added to the elemental stances.

My 'hard' longterm wish would be the introduction of one new concept for all ranged weapons : RANGE!

[GatekeeperPL]

I think of one realy cewl way to make bows to be good again it is TRICK SHOT aka BOUNCING ARROW aka SPLIT SHOT etc. It should work as warlock chain blast , could use even same mechanics, and its not an abomination, lots of rpg has some kind of skill like that. Would be best if it was like a stance to toggle it on, and it could improve with lvl : 1,2,3,4,5 additional jumps.