Party Roles

[PsychoBlonde]

So, here's my general notion for how party "roles" ought to work in this game (not that we exactly have those) as an aid to development aims. 4 degree scale, Poor -- Moderate -- Good -- Excellent:

Tank
Damage: **GOOD**
Damage Avoidance: Excellent
Damage Soak: Excellent
Healing/recovery: Moderate to Poor
CC/tactics: Moderate to Poor

Melee Dps
Damage: Excellent
Damage Avoidance: Good
Damage Soak: Good
Healing/Recovery: Moderate to Poor
CC/tactics: Good

Ranged DPS
Damage: Good
Damage Avoidance: Excellent (although about 50% of that is Because Ranged)
Damge Soak: Poor to Moderate
Healing/Recovery: Poor to Moderate
CC/Tactics: Poor to Moderate

CC/Heals
Damage: **MODERATE**
Damage Avoidance: Good
Damage Soak: Poor to Moderate
Healing/Recovery: Excellent
CC/Tactics: Excellent

Nor should this be Locked In, for instance there are Tank Healer builds that basically replace damage with heals. There are hybrid builds, that's fine, but there should be a solid starting range for "full focus" builds. But right now in most cases tanks don't get ANY dps and ranged CC/heals also don't get ANY dps, meaning that a lot of times you're running with a bunch of melee and ranged dps with NO HEALS/CC and NO TANK because THOSE BUILDS SUCK TO PLAY because their damage is nonexistent and it's getting annoying.

And, yes, I know it's very hard to boost those two build categories without *accidentally* boosting some DPS build into godhood.

IMO the best way to boost tanks and Ranged CC/Heals builds without boosting the other DPS builds is to give them some damage opportunities that slowly stack up over time. So their ability to stay alive (either by soaking damage or by outhealing it) means that they can gradually build up to maximum damage potential. Whereas focused DPS builds should be as front-loaded as possible. The build-up damage doesn't help them because by the time they'd build up any stacks everything is dead and they do so much damage anyway that on, say, a boss fight it's not worth the investment for them. But that damage increase for tanks and cc/heals builds pushes them from Poor damage to Moderate/Good and means that they CAN kill stuff if they have to.

Also keep in mind that there ain't no such animal as CC that works on everything in this game. Damage works on everything. CC is not equivalent to damage, it is equivalent to DAMAGE AVOIDANCE/SOAK. So you shouldn't be trading damage for damage avoidance soak or damage for CC, you should be trading heals/soak/avoidance for CC and vice versa. A tank should have reduced CC potential. CC should have reduced soak. Melee DPS trades some CC, some soak, and some avoidance for maximum damage.

Instant kills are a form of CC, not damage.

[rabidfox]

meaning that a lot of times you're running with a bunch of melee and ranged dps with NO HEALS/CC and NO TANK because THOSE BUILDS SUCK TO PLAY because their damage is nonexistent and it's getting annoying.

I think my experience in the game is very different than yours. I run heal/damage builds (typically) and I run into a fair number of tanky builds that do good damage while pugging over and over on the reincarnation treadmill. I'm glad there's no holy trinity baseline for DDO; it's a solid mechanic for basic MMOs but I hated the whole "LFM need tank/heals" that other games have before an instance is ever started. Being able to make insane multi-class combos is something I love about this game; some builds work amazing and others turn into trash that get reincarnated super fast.

[Captain_Wizbang]

The "titles" used have changed over the years, and you know it.

S&B used to be a "tank". Or more definitely " intim tank". That went out the window when a monk in mountain stance would take agro from boss in end fights.

PB with all do respect, I ignore those titles 100% in today's game.

Except of course raids, which I again ignore, I just play to the best of my abilities. No more "tanking", picking up things (vella), stone runner, etc......


Nice write up though ma'am. +1 when I can give it out.

[PsychoBlonde]

Oh, yeah, I agree that the titles don't really apply to DDO. They're more there for useful metrics to decide what should swap for what, basically if you're increasing X, then Y should go down as a tradeoff.

Basically I'm saying "these are where I see the tradeoff lines falling". I would have titled the thread Party "Roles" except that punctuation in thread titles does screwy things.
"

[PsychoBlonde]

I think my experience in the game is very different than yours. I run heal/damage builds (typically) and I run into a fair number of tanky builds that do good damage while pugging over and over on the reincarnation treadmill. I'm glad there's no holy trinity baseline for DDO; it's a solid mechanic for basic MMOs but I hated the whole "LFM need tank/heals" that other games have before an instance is ever started. Being able to make insane multi-class combos is something I love about this game; some builds work amazing and others turn into trash that get reincarnated super fast.

"Tanky" and "Tank" are not remotely the same thing in this game. There is an ENORMOUS difference between a sturdy survivable DPS character and an honest-to-goodness TANK in this game, as I discovered recently when I built my first real tank.

[SirValentine]

I'm not sure it's very useful or accurate to just lump healing and CC into one bucket. While some build certainly have both, it's quite common to be good at one and not at all at the other. They are very different roles.

It also seems weird that every single one of your types has Damage Avoidance of Good or Excellent.

And that Tank gets the same level of DPS as one of your categories named "DPS".

And does "Damage" only mean boss DPS? If it's including trash DPS, I don't see how it makes any sense that killing with a sword is DPS but killing with a spell is CC.

[rabidfox]

"Tanky" and "Tank" are not remotely the same thing in this game. There is an ENORMOUS difference between a sturdy survivable DPS character and an honest-to-goodness TANK in this game, as I discovered recently when I built my first real tank.

There's a big difference between when I go deep heals vs the heal/DSP setups I do too. For the majority of the game, deep heals like full tank builds aren't needed. Outside of some raids/some high skull instances, those specializations serve little purpose (just like CC is optional on low skulls when things die faster than they can damage the party). I'll respec my setup & swap gear around for when I need overkill on the heal side; I assume the tanks I run with do the same. I lose a good chunk of solo-ability when I swap around my setup, but at that point we're in situations that are all 6 (or 12) manned groups that are pushing content that dictate more specific builds (and there's lots of builds that fall by the wayside at this point). I'd say 99% of my play, roles are completely meaningless with game as is; just bring whatever flavor of build/play one enjoys. But then again, there's some people that have the skills to solo r10s, so I've got a long long ways to go towards mastering things.

[Tsutti]

I disagree that every "role" should have even half decent damage potential, it increases soloability which in turn decreases incentive to actually play in a party.

Also I'm currently leveling a fighter tank that has pretty decent CC instead of damage, and am thinking of trying a bear tank that also has cc (may have decent damage thanks to attack speed from last 2 cores and some bonus dmg stuff in the tree). I know you said these aren't necessarily what every build should have and are just a baseline, but more soak/damage avoidance doesn't mean it should have less CC, as long as it lacks damage to actually kill stuff. IMO a tank only actually needs enough dps to hold aggro in raids when party has fat dps or to hold aggro vs things that can't be intimed.

[PsychoBlonde]

I disagree that every "role" should have even half decent damage potential, it increases soloability which in turn decreases incentive to actually play in a party.

You don't need to incentivize people to play in a party. If they're playing and spending even a tiny amount of money, that's great. If they want to solo, that's their business. It doesn't hurt anyone. You need to incentivize them to PLAY. And having builds that only function as crappy hangers-on only incentivizes people to NOT play those builds. (And, when those builds are critical for doing some content, it's a giant pain in the ass for everyone.) If that's their favorite build, they're going to start getting frustrated and looking around for a new game.

People have been whining about soloing since I started playing, and guess what, nothing they've done has gotten those players to play with people. Enabling EVERYONE to solo at least somewhat has, over time, radically decreased the crappiness of the PARTY experience and increased build variety tremendously.

People are happiest when they can play what they want to play and then solo or party as they feel like it.

The only games I've seen that manage to survive by *forcing* their players not to solo are ones that have player numbers in the *millions* where you can pretty much guarantee that there will be someone around to fill that party slot within a reasonable amount of time regardless of time or zone, and even World of Warcraft had to switch to a cross-server global grouping queue to pull that off. For a game this tiny it's a ridiculous proposition. If someone HAS to group to play and can't get a group, they ain't gonna play, and there are no guarantees in DDO that you'll be able to get a group.

[Tsutti]

(And, when those builds are critical for doing some content, it's a giant pain in the ass for everyone.) If that's their favorite build, they're going to start getting frustrated and looking around for a new game.

People are happiest when they can play what they want to play and then solo or party as they feel like it.

People who like tanking/healing have no purpose in doing so without a party, so they won't really care to solo on those builds anyway. When what they want to play is a healer or tank, they are deciding to play a party build. There may not be a lot of people who play those builds, but there will always be some, and we don't want a ton anyway because a party of tanks or healers shouldn't work well--if healers can dps well, many would say why play anything else? Just never die as opposed to playing melee with somewhat better dps but the possibility of dying? Or ranged, which eventually will die to archers if it doesn't have decent self heals or someone to heal them?

Tanks, healers, cc bots are considered party builds--people whose favorite builds are those expect to play them in a party.

[rabidfox]

Tanks, healers, cc bots are considered party builds--people whose favorite builds are those expect to play them in a party.

That's true. I kill faster solo as sorc but I have way more fun joining every pug I see while leveling and meeting people while tossing out heals and dishing out damage on the side.

[Tobril]

It would be nice to have a "Role" setting for raids.

HP will generally indicate a tank, though sturdy healers will have nearly or as much in some cases.

Ranged, Melee, Robot/Dead/Flesh...more good indicators that would be nice.

Deadly Weapons, Bard single target song, and a host of other class specifics showing up for responsible player (and maybe the raid leader) would be pretty neat as well.


Additionally, while DDO is a bit of a strange animal in the MMO world, there's certain mechanics that shouldn't target a tank.

(Circles in Project Nemesis as one example)


That said, it's also fun to be able to solo/shortperson raids as well. This is a case for where the "Role" setting can/should be ignored.

[Bunker]

Raiding - 12 player break down

1 Tank
1 Healer
1 Debuffer
3 DPS
1 InstaKiller
1 Soulstone (always in the backpack)
1 HeyGuys (does not stop talking)
1 AFKer (knowingly afk and owning the position)
1 Piker (Claiming to be helping but really not)
1 Always a Spot (the players that fits all roles including AFKer, but is always guaranteed a spot)

Edit: Other suggestions - Dualboxer accounts

[timmy9999]

Raiding - 12 player break down

1 Tank
1 Healer
1 Debuffer
3 DPS
1 InstaKiller
1 Soulstone (always in the backpack)
1 HeyGuys (does not stop talking)
1 AFKer (knowingly afk and owning the position)
1 Piker (Claiming to be helping but really not)
1 Always a Spot (the players that fits all roles including AFKer, but is always guaranteed a spot)

You forgot about the 2 boxed accounts waiting at the beginning to fill the greedy leaders pockets

[Bunker]

You forgot about the 2 boxed accounts waiting at the beginning to fill the greedy leaders pockets

I like it.

[rabidfox]

The only games I've seen that manage to survive by *forcing* their players not to solo are ones that have player numbers in the *millions* where you can pretty much guarantee that there will be someone around to fill that party slot within a reasonable amount of time regardless of time or zone, and even World of Warcraft had to switch to a cross-server global grouping queue to pull that off. For a game this tiny it's a ridiculous proposition. If someone HAS to group to play and can't get a group, they ain't gonna play, and there are no guarantees in DDO that you'll be able to get a group.

WoW, is a poor example of "forcing their players not to solo". Their entire pre-endgame is silly easy to solo, had class updates to make solo leveling easier for healers & tanks, and hands out amazing gear & XP via quests all the way up to cap at which point the game changes to the trinity design for dungeons>t1 raids>t2 raids>etc for progressive raiding via gear grinding w/grind reset each expansion (with the exception of people who like to hit lower level dungeons but those are all skip-able).

With DDO being a reincarnation cycle vs parked end game at cap design, it's a entirely setup than other MMOs I've played; it's a very apple to oranges comparison. If DDO had a long term endgame, where it was worth it to park 30 for extended periods, you'd see a lot of different setups as the build at 30 would matter more than 1 to 29; right it's all about leveling thru past lives & getting 1st time reaper bonuses (with the likely exception of a few progressive raiding guilds in DDO).