Vanguard Fighter vs Vanguard Paladin

[SvikC]

As the title suggests, what's the difference between vanguard Paladin vs Vanguard Fighter, when both are sharing same Enchantment tree? By difference, I mean, in terms of- playstyle, survivability, DPS, viability in groups and endgame, and fun (given that it is subjective :P )

[Arkat]

Pally - much more survivable because of higher saving throws and the ability to cast Cure spells on yourself.

Fighter - higher DPS because of all the extra feats like Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization. Also more Melee Power from a bunch of Combat feats.

[A-O]

Fighter - higher DPS because of all the extra feats like Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization. Also more Melee Power from a bunch of Combat feats.

Not true.

[Komradkillingmachine]

Not true.

Agreed.

Vanguard Pally is better than Vanguard Fighter but neither is as good as vanilla THF with 31APs that you don't need to dump into mediocre Vanguard tree. Big Sad.

[Captain_Wizbang]

well since you added the"fun factor" to the op......

For all around fun, fighter vanguard. The advantage of base builds (NOT twinked uber completionist builds) damage and the extra feats makes fighter moar fun as a front-line melee.

For obvious reasons a pally is more survivable, and you need to have that in mind when playing one. Don't expect a pally w/ exact same character spec's to out dps a ftr.

Heroic vs Epic. Here's where ED's can make a difference. What a fighter can gain in ED's a Pally can gain a broader scope of attributes to focus more on what your play style prefers.

I run both a lot, I'm torn on the fun factor.

Good thread. I hope you get some constructive feedback instead of the standard "my toon can do this, and if yours can't then...."

[Enoach]

One big difference between the Fighter and Paladin is that the Fighter is very flexible via number of feats you can choose

Another is that the Fighter is not Multi-Attribute Dependent

Paladin gain innate abilities such as ability to heal and also buff themselves

Paladin Via deity choices can make up some of the Feat discrepancy as compared to fighter, but these are limited to weapon proficiency

UMD is easier to accomplish on a Paladin vs Fighter

Paladin can gain access to cleave style feats via Enhancements if you have points for KoTC

Now some of the differences can be mitigated via race choice - Aasimar for Lay on Hands, or Halfling for Dragon marks. Dwarf for D-Axe proficiency etc.

[A-O]

For all around fun, fighter vanguard. The advantage of base builds (NOT twinked uber completionist builds) damage and the extra feats makes fighter moar fun as a front-line melee.

Paladin gets: +15 MP (spell), +5 dmg (spell), +5 to hit (spell), +1 crit range (spell) +1 crit multiplier (spell)
Fighter gets: +4 dmg (feats) +10 MP (feats), +4 to hit (feats)

Enlighten me on how you think fighters do more damage.

The only way a fighter comes close is if you go T5 in Kensai, but at that point, why bother with Vanguard.

[TitusOvid]

T5 Vanguard is more fluff than anything. You are better off with Kensai T5 (in vanguard style), imo.

Vanguard:
The 2nd shield bash chance is too low.
You can get Vulnerability someplace else.
There is better cc than shield Rush.
And +10 MP alone is not enough to go T5.

Kensai:
I am not sure if A Good Death works with bashing, so I let this one out.
+3 to hit and damage - ok
+20 MP - nuff said
Deadly Strike: works splendidly on active shield bashing.
+1 crit range - nuff said.


Maybe I mix up Deadly Strike and A Good Death. One works, one not.

Cheers,
Titus.

[Ballrus]

Counting only vanguard tree, pally is a bit better (self heals, saves, more damage). But remember, shield bash is capped at 1 hit per sec, and you will not use only vanguard tree, right? Vanguard is for support (imo).

Kensei T5 plus vanguard have better dps than KOTC T5 plus vanguard. Pally have better surviability.

And if someone think that pally KOTC + Vang have better dps than Fighter Kensei + Vang, im on Ghallanda running a wf kensei/vang atm. Come and we will check.

PS. Of course that THF have better dps than vanguard, but this thread isn't about THF.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Paladin gets: +15 MP (spell), +5 dmg (spell), +5 to hit (spell), +1 crit range (spell) +1 crit multiplier (spell)
Fighter gets: +4 dmg (feats) +10 MP (feats), +4 to hit (feats)

Enlighten me on how you think fighters do more damage.

The only way a fighter comes close is if you go T5 in Kensai, but at that point, why bother with Vanguard.

well now AO, I was going to add a side note about T5. That's where we could use a few changes.

Don't criticize me or my builds, but my ftr's do more dmge than my pallys w/ same set-up. GEAR makes a big difference also. Pallys have more gear that help vs ftrs.
So.......... if we take gear out of the equation ftr has an edge in dps.

It comes down to play style. And what is fun for the player. All too often people post here (as I said earlier) about "my toon does this, and my toon does that" and then disputes arise when people get called out on their opinion.

[unbongwah]

The main downside to paladin is you're feat-constrained. Even on a PDK Vanguard of Helm (which gets bastard sword proficiency free), you can't take every DPS-boosting and tanking feat you want.

The main downside to fighter is you're AP-constrained because many of your best DPS bonuses are in the Kensei tree: specifically +1 crit range and +20 Melee Power from tier-5. Also you don't have the survivability / soloing bonuses which a paladin has: high saves, Lay on Hands, etc.

Then there's the larger meta question namely: is it worth playing a pure Vanguard anymore? The VG capstone was nerfed a while back (the stun proc chance is 10% instead of 50%) so with the recent buffs to 2H weapon DPS, should S&B be relegated to the high-AC tanks like Steelmaiden?

[A-O]

Counting only vanguard tree, pally is a bit better (self heals, saves, more damage). But remember, shield bash is capped at 1 hit per sec, and you will not use only vanguard tree, right? Vanguard is for support (imo).

Kensei T5 plus vanguard have better dps than KOTC T5 plus vanguard. Pally have better surviability.

And if someone think that pally KOTC + Vang have better dps than Fighter Kensei + Vang, im on Ghallanda running a wf kensei/vang atm. Come and we will check.

PS. Of course that THF have better dps than vanguard, but this thread isn't about THF.

There are many options, but only a few realistic ones.

A) T5 kensai, T4 Vanguard with 18 core. Shield bash build
B) T5 SD with T4 Vanguard to support a tank build
C) T5 VG, T4 Kensai/SD

Option A) Why go Shield? If you're not going SD tanky, then why even bother gimping yourself with a shield? You'll have less survivability than a T5 Kensai T4/18core SD build with 2hander, and *far* less damage.
Option B) Worse in every way over a Paladin that goes T5 SaD + T4 VG
Option C) Worse in every way over a paladin that goes T5 SaD + T4 VG

And as for T5 Kensai + T4 VG/18 core, vs. T5 kotc + T4 vg/18 core. The Kotc will out dps the fighter on everything ascension stacks on. And in epics because of CaF, and run pretty much even to the fighter in every other scenario except during One Cut.

In the world of shields, a fighter's only place is for R10 raiding.

[Ballrus]

Option A) Why go Shield?

Fun?

And as for T5 Kensai + T4 VG/18 core, vs. T5 kotc + T4 vg/18 core. The Kotc will out dps the fighter on everything ascension stacks on. And in epics because of CaF, and run pretty much even to the fighter in every other scenario except during One Cut.

My experience was different.
Im at lvl 3 right now, probably at 20 next week. If u step in Ghallanda, let's run together and check it.

[DarigTheLost]

Honestly you need to play both, what is your goal, what is your preference, this is all about you. Are you about tanking vs dps? What % of grouping vs solo? What difficulty of the quests do you want to be able to handle? How much playtime are you willing to sink into a toon to get the Past Lives to make that toon viable depending on what your goals are ? Are you going to play what you want vs the ultimate cookie build?

gear is pretty much the cat's meow to dps/survivability. I have a complete swap out for gear every couple levels of cannith crafted ( some BTA mixed in ) for a Vanguard. When bored my Bank Toons are geared and go off and solo Elite difficulty, r1 with a group but I can become a smear on the floor. This also makes a point about power creep.

If you can make 2 toons, getting back to you, is my suggestion. It worked for me to make a final decision on choosing what type of fighter to make my main, and I am sure it would work as well to decide what type of Vanguard you want to play.

No matter, use the advice offered and ignore the, "you must do this".

cheers Dar

[Captain_Wizbang]

Fun?

My experience was different.
Im at lvl 3 right now, probably at 20 next week. If u step in Ghallanda, let's run together and check it.

Don't bother brother. he is one the posters that will cling to a premise even if it is flawed. Ao has some valid points, but by no means are they absolute.

[A-O]

Fun?

My experience was different.
Im at lvl 3 right now, probably at 20 next week. If u step in Ghallanda, let's run together and check it.

If fun is the goal the point of fighter vs paladin is kinda moot. Play what you find the most fun. Simple.
I'm Thelanis, otherwise I'd take you up on it!

Don't bother brother. he is one the posters that will cling to a premise even if it is flawed. Ao has some valid points, but by no means are they absolute.

On the contrary. I'm incredibly adaptive. I change with every update. With every patch note. With every new exploit or new glitch. If you knew my history you'd know I once raved about quick draw (back when boosts had an activation time), or that I vindictively defended TWF over THF. And that's completely changed as the game's changed.

Show me the math and I change my mind in a heartbeat. Show me speculations and nonsense and I'll remain in the /doubt corner as I always have.

[Komradkillingmachine]

All the of the Fighter Vanguard fans are conveniently ignoring the lack of Divine Might, lack of ST % sources and lack of Sanctified Fervor set on TOP of everything else a Pally Vanguard gets.

[A-O]

All the of the Fighter Vanguard fans are conveniently ignoring the lack of Divine Might, lack of ST % sources and lack of Sanctified Fervor set on TOP of everything else a Pally Vanguard gets.

Hush. This isn't the place for critical thought and actually comparing the two on paper. This thread is only about what "feels" right and how it "should" be.

[Ganak]

For a beginner, pally vanguard for sure.

For advanced players, Fighter vanguard all the way (Kensei T5 / T4 Vanguard specifically because T5 vanguard enhancements are not good).

The tons of extra feats, ability to have top tactics, only have to focus on two stats (str and con).

[SvikC]

Thank you all for your valuable and insightful replies. I am really glad as I didn't expect so many thoughtful replies, which, I can consider as a sign of vibrant healthy and active forum.

Now, I think it was partly fault from my side, as I should have made it clear that I was looking for a comparison between pure vanguard Fighter vs Pure Vanguard Paladin. It actually had surprised me after I discovered two different classes sharing the same tree (just like EK shared between Sor and Wiz). So I just wanted to get an idea that how much different two classes can have despite sharing identical enchantment tree.

Thank you all again, and I am loving the discussion.

(And I love Sword and Board (most probably spilled over from Elder Scrolls))