Bards: Why ware there no ranged options

[Smokewolf]

While doing some research on Bards I came to the realization that Bards have not ONE viable ranged option. Even on the various forum threads (online) they bluntly indicate that Bard-Ranged is too weak for even a flavor build.

Yet clearly the Developers intent was for Bards to have Ranged as shown within the Swashbuckling description...

Swashbuckling: Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.) (For Warforged and Bladeforged, you must be using either the Composite Plating or Mithral Body feats).
Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles1:

Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
Light Mace, Light Hammer, Kama, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
Kukri, Rapier: +1 Multiplier
Handaxe: +2 Range
Light Pick: +1 Range
Light Crossbow, Scimitar: No adjustment to critical profile

With that being said, the reason for the lack of ranged potential is simple, just look that the Swashbuckling Enh tree for Different Tack. (https://ddowiki.com/page/Swashbuckler_enhancements) While the Swashbuckler tree allows for some limited ranged use, it does not account for Different-Tacks requirement of "Single Weapon Fighting" and thus cripples any significant use of ranged. What is needed here is to change Different-Tact from "Single Weapon Fighting" to "Swashbuckling". Thus at least this way a Bard would have the means to use their primary stat-to-damage as several races / classes do already.

Furthermore, Bards are limited to throwing weapons and "light" crossbows to still be considered Swashbuckling yet I was very surprised to not at least see short-bows make this list. If short-bows were an option, at least then maybe someone would have a reason to use a short-bow. Currently as is, I can't think of a single player I've encountered in-game that has a build that uses one. (from 2006 on)

[Uralte]

Bard's are pretty feat starved as it is, so you are pretty limited on how you can build. If FoP was a granted feat that would give more flexibility... which seems a logical approach to Fav Soul, Warlock, etc... as well, but DDO likes to keep to the books when it is not in the favor of the character. Look at the decision to remove evasion from the barbarian, that made the barb quite the mana sponge afterwords. Those bazillion HP builds just became a liability because they couldn't hold on to their HP... AT... ALL.

Bards are freaky awesome but with limited feats it is very difficult to take bard to 20 and not be cookie cutter in one of three cookie cuts. They are very good support characters as they stand, but to do something a bit more spectacular you have to splash a bit of this or that to get and lose your capstone. That's the rub for me.

So with a few more feats or granted feats and/or enhancement tree granted feats, the Bard could become much more utilitarian rather than just pretty.

[unbongwah]

Ironically, a bard-based thrower build is better now than it has been at any time since Swashbuckler was introduced six years ago. This is due to several factors, the most recent of which has been two new feats in U45:

• Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise: You are skilled with the use of Simple Thrown Weapons (Throwing Daggers and Darts) and while using one, you gain Doubleshot equal to your Dexterity.
• Multitude of Missiles: For the next 20 seconds, while wielding a Simple Thrown Weapon add 100 to your Doubleshot and 2x your Base Attack Bonus to Ranged Power. Shares a cooldown with Manyshot.

So STWE boosts your standing Doubleshot and MoM boosts your burst DPS just as Manyshot does for archery. However, there's still no option for DEX to thrown damage in the bard trees; so you need to either play a halfling for Skillful Thrower or splash ranger 2 for Improved Weapon Finesse. Alternatively, go the bard / Alchemist route so STWE's bonus is derived from INT instead of DEX (Vile Chemist's level 12 core Enhancement).

Not that pure bard is the best option even among F2P thrower builds, but at least it isn't the gimpsauce it was for the first 5 1/2 years of Swashbuckler's existence.

No one uses short bows because there's only a few mediocre named options. I guess epic Collapsible Shortbow was okay for its time, but no one's gonna bother farming ADQ for it now.

[Smokewolf]

Bard's are pretty feat starved as it is, so you are pretty limited on how you can build. If FoP was a granted feat that would give more flexibility... which seems a logical approach to Fav Soul, Warlock, etc... as well, but DDO likes to keep to the books when it is not in the favor of the character. Look at the decision to remove evasion from the barbarian, that made the barb quite the mana sponge afterwords. Those bazillion HP builds just became a liability because they couldn't hold on to their HP... AT... ALL.

Bards are freaky awesome but with limited feats it is very difficult to take bard to 20 and not be cookie cutter in one of three cookie cuts. They are very good support characters as they stand, but to do something a bit more spectacular you have to splash a bit of this or that to get and lose your capstone. That's the rub for me.

So with a few more feats or granted feats and/or enhancement tree granted feats, the Bard could become much more utilitarian rather than just pretty.

Appreciate you thoughts on the matter and can easily understand your point of view. I take it you've several Bard builds to reflect from?

Anyways, the point of this post was to attract interest into what I clearly see as a class thats in dire need of Developer pass to open up what should be a jack-of-all-trades build. The lack of ranged and feats, leaves the it stuck as a cookie-cutter class. Loved by a few, hated by many but always played in the same role.

[Smokewolf]

No one uses short bows because there's only a few mediocre named options. I guess epic Collapsible Shortbow was okay for its time, but no one's gonna bother farming ADQ for it now.

Why even bother having it then if its not going to be implemented in-game as something viable?

Side note: I see much of the same issue with other (melee) weapons and its why so many builds all running using Great-swords. Pretty easy to get a good one and the 2-H mechanics are well understood. Can't say the same for some of the Ranged weapons however.

[Arch-Necromancer]

I was just recently looking for a way to make a bard thrower. And then found out that Different Tack does not work for throwing weapons.

It really makes no sense. At least throwing weapons should be included in Different Tack.

[PsychoBlonde]

It's somewhat ironic that they clearly added Inquisitive with the thought of it being a bard option (hence the gear that the Tiefling Scoundrel iconic bard gets and the ability where you can use a crossbow with swashbuckling) but Bard is all around a TERRIBLE class for Inquisitive with NO synergy.

[PsychoBlonde]

Why even bother having it then if its not going to be implemented in-game as something viable?

Side note: I see much of the same issue with other (melee) weapons and its why so many builds all running using Great-swords. Pretty easy to get a good one and the 2-H mechanics are well understood. Can't say the same for some of the Ranged weapons however.

Yeah, honestly, Short Bow and Long Bow could be collapsed into a single Bow type and it would not make any difference whatsoever.

It's somewhat questionable whether there actually needs to be a Heavy and Light crossbow, too, except that gnomes only get bonuses to light crossbows.

[TitusOvid]

I can see a pure bard swashi with Coup de Grace and heavy in vistani tree. It would neverteless be a flavor build.

Cheers,
Titus.

[katz]

I can see a pure bard swashi with Coup de Grace and heavy in vistani tree. It would neverteless be a flavor build.

Cheers,
Titus.

i think i have a bard like that...

[Lynnabel]

I was just recently looking for a way to make a bard thrower. And then found out that Different Tack does not work for throwing weapons.

It really makes no sense. At least throwing weapons should be included in Different Tack.

Spoiler for what's in u47: Different Tack now requires you to be Swashbuckling rather than Single Weapon Fighting for its stat-to-damage modification.

[ThomasHunter]

Spoiler for what's in u47: Different Tack now requires you to be Swashbuckling rather than Single Weapon Fighting for its stat-to-damage modification.

Lynnabel, it’s been a rough couple of days in Kenosha, WI, but this definitely puts a smile on my face. I’m really excited about this!!!

[jakeelala]

Spoiler for what's in u47: Different Tack now requires you to be Swashbuckling rather than Single Weapon Fighting for its stat-to-damage modification.

this is super sick

[rabidfox]

Spoiler for what's in u47: Different Tack now requires you to be Swashbuckling rather than Single Weapon Fighting for its stat-to-damage modification.

Ooooo, nice.

[WiseFreelancer]

Ooooo, nice.

In no way intended to be greedy, but: with this update to Different Tack, does it also affect stat to hit or just damage? Asking only because I'm about to TR into a bard and want to get the build right!

[HungarianRhapsody]

Bards: Why are there no ranged options

Bards are very heavy and difficult to throw. And good luck getting a bow or crossbow that they'll fit into.

[Tsutti]

In no way intended to be greedy, but: with this update to Different Tack, does it also affect stat to hit or just damage? Asking only because I'm about to TR into a bard and want to get the build right!

I doubt it'll affect to-hit but it would be cool to get something that lets us use cha to hit and dmg other than the PDK enhancement (nothing wrong with that, except that you can't use it for very many weapons). If they make another universal tree anytime soon I'd actually guess it will have cha to hit and dmg like harper has int and falconry has wis because we got harper (tree with int to hit/dmg and a Trance based on int) then a tree that focused on a specific weapon, then falconry (wis to hit/dmg and a Trance based on wis) and then another tree focused on a specific weapon. Of course this pattern may be totally coincidental but it's interesting and fun to speculate about. Fingers crossed for a universal with cha to hit/dmg and a cha Trance! Would be nice not to have to use a +1 heart of wood for that on a non-fighter tank...

[Tsutti]

Bards are very heavy and difficult to throw. And good luck getting a bow or crossbow that they'll fit into.

What if the bard is a halfling?

[droid327]

Spoiler for what's in u47: Different Tack now requires you to be Swashbuckling rather than Single Weapon Fighting for its stat-to-damage modification.

Hokey smokes! My brain just exploded with all the build possibilities now. DEX based Inquisitive!

And..and...well actually thats about it, because that's the only non-SWF Swash weapon...so its actually a massive nerf for anyone that might've been running, say, a Bsword Bard/Sorc EK....

[rabidfox]

Hokey smokes! My brain just exploded with all the build possibilities now. DEX based Inquisitive!

And..and...well actually thats about it, because that's the only non-SWF Swash weapon...so its actually a massive nerf for anyone that might've been running, say, a Bsword Bard/Sorc EK....

Bard/Sorc/FvS Inquisitive combo; just saying =)