Heroic/Epic Otto's Boxes need immediate attention

[Sushiboat]

Since none of the items being duped have any cash value, how much money could SSG even sue someone for?

I haven’t heard of anyone ever being convicted of criminal charges for duping in an MMO - not even when they hit the big names like WoW and SOE and made thousands and thousands of dollars on the duped items/currency.

It seems easier for SSG to fix the bugs than it would be to successfully identify and provide enough evidence to successfully prosecute a duper. And they haven’t fixed the bugs...

You can, depending on the circumstances, sue for damages beyond the sticker price, but those tend to be harder to prove (e.g., lost profits) or are generally disfavored (e.g., punitive damages).

More generally, a point that is being overlooked here is that, generally speaking, private parties cannot file criminal charges. The government files criminal charges. The government has discretion over whether they want to actually follow through on reported criminal conduct. And they often won't, for good reason (e.g., doesn't look like there's enough evidence, not enough resources on hand (or resources better spent elsewhere)).

Criminal complaints are in fact, usually publicly accessible. Would also be a fascinating test of jurisdiction and value interpretation. Felony theft is usually around $500+ (so 10 duped boxes). Because one would file the complaint in say, MA, and if they got a judge to issue indictment things get very complicated for defendants out of state. Then every time defendant has to fill out a form about being charged with a crime, they have to explain themselves. There's a huge fat tail of effects on doing this just a handful of times. Just ruin a couple people's lives and pretty soon we'll have this new thread of media about kids or adults ruining their futures because they committed IP theft crimes in MMOs (which will also bring scrutiny to some shady MMO things as well).

Your personal opinion on whether "ruin[ing] a couple people's lives" is a proportional response to duping aside, you don't think this makes a company nervous? What kind of player wants to stick around in a game run by a company that has clearly demonstrated they are perfectly happy to ruin your life? Suing your own customers is generally a bad idea, from both a PR and business perspective.

[nokowi]

Can we get back on topic which was about binding them to account. This would fix a lot of the issues. Buy them on the account that you want them of from the store.

People who are duping are then stuck with the excess of boxes, and then I would't be offered a box for a piece of raid loot, that i am not sure is a legit bought from Store or not. Not risking getting my account banned.

Thx

The market has already been flooded with non BTA items, which were sold as non BTA items.

They would have to refund legitimate purchases (people that bought what was advertised, a non BTA box) to people that have access to non-legitimate boxes for much lower price if they made the change retroactively to existing boxes.

I think it is a good idea, but it really doesn't fix the damage done already.

[Cashiry]

The market has already been flooded with non BTA items, which were sold as non BTA items.

They would have to refund legitimate purchases (people that bought what was advertised, a non BTA box) to people that have access to non-legitimate boxes for much lower price if they made the change retroactively to existing boxes.

I think it is a good idea, but it really doesn't fix the damage done already.

Fare Point

[HungarianRhapsody]

Your personal opinion on whether "ruin[ing] a couple people's lives" is a proportional response to duping aside, you don't think this makes a company nervous? What kind of player wants to stick around in a game run by a company that has clearly demonstrated they are perfectly happy to ruin your life? Suing your own customers is generally a bad idea, from both a PR and business perspective.

I haven’t duped myself or received duped items (as far as I know) but I would quit and never come back if I thought SSG were trying to sue people who received duped goods because I can’t be sure that I haven’t gotten something duped off the AH or ASAH at some point.

[myliftkk_v2]

In the US justice system, there's a little something called entrapment.

Different situation, but similar concept. I, too, would not cheat. Still think the above mentioned individual is an @$$hat.

Entrapment would typically only be a viable defense if someone at SSG taught someone else to dupe.

If a drug dealer tells another person how to sell drugs, it's not entrapment.

[myliftkk_v2]

Since none of the items being duped have any cash value, how much money could SSG even sue someone for?

I haven’t heard of anyone ever being convicted of criminal charges for duping in an MMO - not even when they hit the big names like WoW and SOE and made thousands and thousands of dollars on the duped items/currency.

It seems easier for SSG to fix the bugs than it would be to successfully identify and provide enough evidence to successfully prosecute a duper. And they haven’t fixed the bugs...

SSG charges for boxes, so yes, they can assign a cash value to it. Now, someone could fight that value, but that's more than likely a losing argument. If I make a piece of Supreme for $1.25 in China and sell it for $100 in US, the cash value is what I decide. The others actually buy boxes at ~$50/pc establishes market value.

There's a first time for everything. Took a long time for criminal law to catch up online gambling. But, we are in a recession now, so lawyers should be branching out and experimenting. That's how new law gets defined.

[myliftkk_v2]

Your personal opinion on whether "ruin[ing] a couple people's lives" is a proportional response to duping aside, you don't think this makes a company nervous? What kind of player wants to stick around in a game run by a company that has clearly demonstrated they are perfectly happy to ruin your life? Suing your own customers is generally a bad idea, from both a PR and business perspective.

Players who don't cheat have nothing to fear. I don't fear going into a bank. If I fly to Israel or Eastern Europe I don't fear people walking around airports with submachine guns. Same rule applies here.

Companies have done far worse with far less reason and plenty are still chugging along.

We break eggs to make omelettes. Sometimes the eggs choose themselves.

[myliftkk_v2]

I haven’t duped myself or received duped items (as far as I know) but I would quit and never come back if I thought SSG were trying to sue people who received duped goods because I can’t be sure that I haven’t gotten something duped off the AH or ASAH at some point.

The optimal method is going after the person who buys a box of stack of boxes for 3 shards. Aka, someone rolling up to one's car at a stop light and offering to sell a Bose system out of their van, or a Rolex from their coat for the NYC savvy.

People get charged for receiving all the time, and yet we all still shop at Target/Wal-Mart/etc/etc/etc. It's just part of the fabric of life. The biggest shock would be understanding that digital actions have consequences and provenance matters, which is really just bringing digital markets in line with physical ones.

[Sushiboat]

Players who don't cheat have nothing to fear. I don't fear going into a bank. If I fly to Israel or Eastern Europe I don't fear people walking around airports with submachine guns. Same rule applies here.

Companies have done far worse with far less reason and plenty are still chugging along.

We break eggs to make omelettes. Sometimes the eggs choose themselves.

I think a more apt example would be more if a (submachine gun wielding) person at an airport shot a tourist because they intentionally did something culturally insensitive. At least some other tourists are going to be concerned they might accidentally do something culturally insensitive and get shot, so they'd just opt not to visit at all. There's nothing guaranteeing that you'd only get shot if you did it on purpose.

At any rate, the strategy is probably fiscally impractical. I doubt the amount of money SSG could recover on this would even balance out the amount they'd have to spend to get there in the first place.

[myliftkk_v2]

I think a more apt example would be more if a (submachine gun wielding) person at an airport shot a tourist because they intentionally did something culturally insensitive. At least some other tourists are going to be concerned they might accidentally do something culturally insensitive and get shot, so they'd just opt not to visit at all. There's nothing guaranteeing that you'd only get shot if you did it on purpose.

At any rate, the strategy is probably fiscally impractical. I doubt the amount of money SSG could recover on this would even balance out the amount they'd have to spend to get there in the first place.

Most people would say if the person acted like they were going to set off a suicide vest, even in jest, better safe than sorry (also compare/contrast) number of mentally ill who get capped by security staff vs people who care about it). The number of people who jump from that to retreating commercially like some suggest isn't nothing, but it's not anywhere near a majority. It doesn't happen in a vacuum either, because PR comes out the other side to justify the actions taken, and that will mollify most people. Life would go on, it always does. A few people screamed up and down about the RIAA going hard after napster users, but in the end, everybody bought Apple iTunes tracks anyway. That same complaint would fade the same way for most. The reality is this kind of stuff happens with physical goods all the time and very few people alter buying habits based on it. Digital goods aren't any more special in that we could expect outcomes to be markedly different. Same rodeo, different day.

It's more a prevent strategy than fiscal one, so one doesn't weigh it against recovery, one weighs it against potential lost revenues (obviously discounted) from not selling similar through normal channels.

I look forward to the future era of MMO juirsprudence because then we can finally start applying some real standards to governing sales of RNG rolls. It cuts both ways.

[ggmarquez]

i find it humorous to imagine the absurdity of this situation if were rendered as a web comic and if it occurred at a table-top gaming session...

three people are sitting at a table : character sheets and rule books at the ready.

(DM) "... and at long last you have achieved the highest level a character can reach. you have two choices before you, you may A: start over from level 1 with a small bonus to stat or skill... or B: stay at this level and attempt to acquire better equipment. which do you chose?"

(Player 1) "oooh oooh, what bonus exactly would i start with?"

(DM) " uhhh, let's see... hmmm it looks like... +1 to haggle."

(Player 2) "don't do it. +1 to haggle isn't that great. actually the whole system is back-loaded. you'll have to do this around 150 times for it to matter. also, my brothers girlfriends nephews imaginary-friend can solo every dungeon on the highest difficulty with nothing but a +1 longsword and he's still on his first life."

(Player 1) "and if i stay at cap, what can i do here exactly?"

(DM) "you will now be allowed to pursue the most wonderful of magical items. weapons... armor... nothing is beyond your reach. every three days you will have the chance to repeat a half dozen adventures. mind-numbingly long and repetitive, you will need only complete these 20 times or so before the item you seek is within your grasp."

(Player 1) "..."

(Player 2) "isn't it great? just imagine what i'll look like in that armor."

(Player 1) "well, i always did want to play as a haggle bard. i'm reincarnating baby... roll me!"

(Player 2) "... but now i have no one in my party... how will i raid?"

(DM) "i will allow the haggle bard to use an item so rare it's almost forbidden. it will grant him all the experience needed to reach cap."

(Player 1) "oohh ohhhh. i use it 150 times. now i have all the character power possible right?"

(DM) "no no... you're not allowed to use it more than once."

(Player 1) " i know, but i'm doing it anyway."

(Player 2) "don't do it. it's not just against the rules, it's actually illegal. the government could press charges."

(Player 1 starting to stand) "i think i'm going..."
(Player 1 slowly moving toward the exit) "... just going to go..."
(Player 1 from over his shoulder as he leaves the room) "... go play something else now."

(Player 2) "looks like it's just me and you now buddy."

(DM) "..."

(Player 2) "how many past lives do i have left before i've finished?"

(DM starting to stand) "i think i'm going..."

[Sushiboat]

Most people would say if the person acted like they were going to set off a suicide vest, even in jest, better safe than sorry (also compare/contrast) number of mentally ill who get capped by security staff vs people who care about it). The number of people who jump from that to retreating commercially like some suggest isn't nothing, but it's not anywhere near a majority. It doesn't happen in a vacuum either, because PR comes out the other side to justify the actions taken, and that will mollify most people. Life would go on, it always does. A few people screamed up and down about the RIAA going hard after napster users, but in the end, everybody bought Apple iTunes tracks anyway. That same complaint would fade the same way for most. The reality is this kind of stuff happens with physical goods all the time and very few people alter buying habits based on it. Digital goods aren't any more special in that we could expect outcomes to be markedly different. Same rodeo, different day.

It's more a prevent strategy than fiscal one, so one doesn't weigh it against recovery, one weighs it against potential lost revenues (obviously discounted) from not selling similar through normal channels.

I look forward to the future era of MMO juirsprudence because then we can finally start applying some real standards to governing sales of RNG rolls. It cuts both ways.

I intentionally picked an act that someone could reasonably do unintentionally, rather than an act (e.g., wearing or pretending to wear a suicide vest) that is much more difficult to do unintentionally.

As far as your RIAA example, what you are suggesting is more or less what RIAA attempted to do by going after end users. RIAA's efforts ultimately sputtered out after "ruining" some lives, getting slammed on the PR front, and ultimately running out of money. And for the most part, failing to noticeably deter people from sharing music.

Sure, some people might have kept buying music, but that's akin to you buying stuff out of the DDO store. That's not what people will be afraid of. What people will be afraid of is, for example, whether or not they still have digital copies of their music on their iPod, old phone, flash drive, computer, external drive, etc., because RIAA was happy to come after you for improperly handling those too. The DDO equivalent, which HungarianRhapsody pointed out, is buying on the AH or ASAH. You don't know if you're buying legitimate goods or a ticking time bomb.

Which bring us back to the point of this thread. Making the boxes (or stones, or whatever) BtA draws a clear line in the sand. Now you know you can't buy this particularly flavor of time bomb off the AH/ASAH (although it doesn't address other potentially (or previously) dupable items).

At any rate, I'm not interested in being "right" on any of these points. Neither one of us has any idea what SSG decision making process looks like or what they've done (or plan to do) to address this. The idea was just to get you to consider that things might not be that simple.

[GramercyRiff]

Why would this weeks sales make you think SSG is gaining? Who would be stupid enough to to buy a +20 heart from DDO store when they could very easily just use duped boxes as a fix for much less? Save those DDO points for something a duped boxes don't fix like new content. I mean the way some guilds are ripping through boxes, they are getting about 100 DDO points per life, or there abouts. Gotta save them DDO points up.

The only real downside I see is the amount of newly duped "elite players" has created a huge increase if crappy attitudes. I have no idea how cheating can create players with such entitled, holier than tho know it all attitudes. Thelanis has become RENOWNED for the amount of smug coming from basement dwellers.

You cannot use points on new content like expansions when its new as far as I remember. The next new big content will be an expansion. I also think cheaters spend money on the game despite cheating, but I can't know this because I don't know any cheaters. At any rate my post isn't just about the potential for SSG to make money. I'm not going to get into it further though.

[HungarianRhapsody]

SSG charges for boxes, so yes, they can assign a cash value to it. Now, someone could fight that value, but that's more than likely a losing argument. If I make a piece of Supreme for $1.25 in China and sell it for $100 in US, the cash value is what I decide. The others actually buy boxes at ~$50/pc establishes market value.

There's a first time for everything. Took a long time for criminal law to catch up online gambling. But, we are in a recession now, so lawyers should be branching out and experimenting. That's how new law gets defined.

Part of SSG’s terms of service, etc. is that none of the items or currencies in the game have any cash value. That is SSG’s official policy and is something that both SSG and players agree on as part of the license for playing the game.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Players who don't cheat have nothing to fear. I don't fear going into a bank. If I fly to Israel or Eastern Europe I don't fear people walking around airports with submachine guns. Same rule applies here.

Companies have done far worse with far less reason and plenty are still chugging along.

We break eggs to make omelettes. Sometimes the eggs choose themselves.

Players who don’t cheat should still reasonably fear being accused of cheating ESPECIALLY if receiving duped goods is the level of cheating that a company decides to sue. Because you can’t know if something that you bought off the AH or ASAH was duped or not and you can’t know if something you got in a trade was duped or not.

[Burtle]

Man..y'all got me all excited they were back.. I could care less about anyone "duping" anything.. yea it's theft, yea it's an e*.. but still it ain't bothering me.... but then again.. I ain't throwin a tantrum on a public forum

[KoobTheProud]

The problem in a nutshell is that SSG's response to the current duping wave is pretty much going to set the standard for how the community views duping moving forward.

If there are a series of high profile bans related to duping then the community standard will remain as it currently sits, with most people viewing duping as a disreputable practice that is highly volatile and unsafe for the people practicing it. It is my general feeling that this is how the problem has been approached in the past and it is why we're having the conversations we're having today. I could be very naive on this issue but I believe that SSG has closely policed duping in the past and banned people when they discovered that duping was occurring.

If there are not a series of high profile bans related to duping at this point the community standard on duping will become much more relaxed and people will see it as part of the experience of playing DDO - if you're in a hurry and you know how to dupe well what's the big deal, SSG obviously doesn't care enough about the issue to take action. This community standard will take a lot less time than we'd think to set in. Given the current box wave on the ASAH you could argue that we're already in the beginning phases of the DDO Dupe Meta.

I think a strong statement from SSG that duping is absolutely unacceptable and that dupers, and clients of external sales operations related to duping and other DDO-related services that are against TOS, will be permanently banned without appeal if they are discovered to be in violation of TOS on these issues is overdue at this point. Yes, the statement has been made in the past however it needs to be reinforced, particularly with the new customers that have arrived since F2P really became F2P this spring.

I think SSG probably needs to do a tech rinse of the Otto's Box creation process to make sure that each box and each XP stone included have a unique identifier to allow SSG to trace the history of a box and it's most important contents from creation to end use.

There are parts of this process that are going to be very uncomfortable for SSG as they look to take back control of the high-end items market.

They can't afford not to do that though.

[timmy9999]

Partially agree. Since people are "cleansing" their duped boxes through the ASAH they should look for abusive patterns where people are buying high amounts of boxes for cheap through the ASAH. This is a sign someone is using an alt account to dupe and then cleanse the boxes through the ASAH to pass to their main account.

And yes people are using duped boxes for many reasons - past lifes yes but also resetting first time rxp bonuses for a 30 run - etr / tr - use dupe boxes - rinse and repeat. This can be done legitimately for high $ but now is being done in mass by dupers.

Hence the sudden climb in people wanting new rewards for high reaper points.

The whole reaper system is tainted and I hope they don't reward dupers with high reaper point rewards.

What a load of rubbish, stacks of player on kyber have wings and are close to the 100 reaper point mark, i know most the people wouldn't risk 10 year of work on cheating. You are assuming. In kyber we pug r10s all the time as standard, that's how we got our points...hard work. Instead of pointing fingers swap servers and see

[SerPounce]

Duping boxes isn't cheating, it's theft.

If someone buys two products I make for the purposes of selling and figures out how to replicate them to sell or giveaway 100 replicants, then they are committing textbook theft, partially of the IP variety.

I wouldn't ban anyone. I'd identify a few of them (since dupers had to purchase boxes to begin with) and file a handful of criminal complaints and civil claims just for fun. Then identify a few receivers and file suits on receiving stolen IP. This would effectively kill it permanently after one or two rounds of this.

Criminal charges would require state prosecutors (e.g. a district attorney) to file charges. Citizens (or a company like SSG) can make a complaint, but the prosecutor has complete discretion as to whether to file charges. DAs are rarely interested in "creative" prosecutions based on untested statutes unless there's a lot of public pressure to do so (i.e. it's politically adventitious). I don't think much of the public really cares that much about online game cheats. The legal theory also isn't as simple as people are making out. Duping wouldn't fit within the common law or most statutory definitions of theft/property crimes which are still usually framed in terms of physical property (you have to deprive the owner of use of the thing). You would therefore have to base the charges off IP laws and related statutes (e.g. Computer fraud and abuse act) that the prosecutors aren't going to be as familiar with and might appear to set unpopular precedents (no one wants to think that evading a profanity filter is a criminal act for example).

So it's probably illegal, but you're going to have a hard time getting a prosecutor to take up the case.

SSG could sue them. Companies have been successful doing this (see e.g. Facebook, Inc v. Power Ventures, Inc) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebo..._Ventures,_Inc.), but the damages aren't going to be enough to make that financially advantageous and SSG is unlikely to want o blow money on expensive law suits just to prove a point.

Part of SSG’s terms of service, etc. is that none of the items or currencies in the game have any cash value. That is SSG’s official policy and is something that both SSG and players agree on as part of the license for playing the game.

I can see why you would wonder about this, but it wouldn't be a problem when suing for damages as they would still be able to show lost profits.

[slarden]

What a load of rubbish, stacks of player on kyber have wings and are close to the 100 reaper point mark, i know most the people wouldn't risk 10 year of work on cheating. You are assuming. In kyber we pug r10s all the time as standard, that's how we got our points...hard work. Instead of pointing fingers swap servers and see

I am not pointing fingers at anyone - just saying the whole reaper system is tainted due to cheating. I earned my 3 characters wings and 100+ points honestly long before the duping started but it doesn't change the fact that system is tainted due to cheating. With double-boxing people can earn rxp at a tremendously fast rate by running only level 30s on higher skulls for big rxp then TR then double box up to 30 with very little questing with duped boxes. With an iconic triple boxing with duped boxes you can get to 30 with no running prior to 30. This was done honestly through purchases prior to the duping and now is done with duped boxes as well.

It's unfortunate but it's true. It doesn't take away from anything I or anyone earned honestly - but I don't want to see cheaters further rewarded so I hope the devs fully understand how people are cheating and the benefits they are gaining. Duping boxes, cleansing through the ASAH, using on their main accounts to get past lifes and rxp very fast.

Players who don’t cheat should still reasonably fear being accused of cheating ESPECIALLY if receiving duped goods is the level of cheating that a company decides to sue. Because you can’t know if something that you bought off the AH or ASAH was duped or not and you can’t know if something you got in a trade was duped or not.

This is true and a few people from the previous duping bans said they were banned for purchasing mats from the ASAH. Whether they were cleansing duped goods through the ASAH and actually guilty - I have no idea.

In all honesty I would not even purchase or use boxes right now for fear of being labeled a cheater and/or reported. Because honest people frustrated with duping can also get a little crazy with their accusations sometimes.