Earth Sorc EK - Terrible or not?

[Stravix]

So, I have been thinking about how stranded Sorc EK is for a while now, with the lack of good CHA to hit and damage (outside of using a PDK and a +1 heart or taking a random fighter level), and I realized that earth sorcerer basically doesn't care about DCs for his spells, as most of them don't even have DCs, and as such doesn't need much CHA. This would allow an EK sorc to invest in STR for hit and damage (and THF feats), and just have enough CHA for spellcasting.

Please either convince me why this won't work, or help me piece this Frankenstein together, because I feel like this shouldn't work, but I can't see why it wouldn't.

AP Spread would probably be T5s in EK for Tempest, while Capstone is in Earth Savant... I think.

[unbongwah]

Gilga's Eldritch Knight is STR-based; in fact it dump-stats INT even though it's wizard-based and uses Divine Might instead of Know the Angles. However his build predates the changes to Divine Might (i.e., back when it provided an Insightful STR bonus), so now there's no functional advantage to DM over KtA (other than being cheaper AP-wise). So you're not the first to hit on the idea of ditching DCs on an EK build.

I count five acid spells with no DCs: four single-target and one AoE. But there are still several acid spells with DCs, including two of your Earth SLAs and epic abilities like Energy Blast or Hellball. Plus a couple other useful Conjuration spells with DCs like Web, Glitterdust, and Trap the Soul. So I don't know that I would say Earth Savant "doesn't care about DCs," only that that they have more spells which aren't DC-dependent than other Savants.

The other main issue would be lack of feats: wizard provides up to five bonus feats, sorcerer provides zero. Difficult to squeeze in full melee DPS and caster feats.

That said, you could test your idea with e.g. Bladeforged paladin 1 / sorcerer 14: max STR, then CHA and CON. [Final build sorc 18 / pal 2 to add Divine Might.] Tier-5 Eldritch Knight, BF Recon SLA, leftover APs into Earth Savant. I'd be curious as to how well it pans out for you.

EDIT: it's a question of priorities and expectations. If you think of this as a highly self-sufficient melee DPS build with WF/BF immunities and your no-save acid spells are just to proc EK bonuses, you'll probably have better results than if you expect this to be melee/caster DPS hybrid.

[Stravix]

Gilga's Eldritch Knight is STR-based; in fact it dump-stats INT even though it's wizard-based and uses Divine Might instead of Know the Angles. However his build predates the changes to Divine Might (i.e., back when it provided an Insightful STR bonus), so now there's no functional advantage to DM over KtA (other than being cheaper AP-wise). So you're not the first to hit on the idea of ditching DCs on an EK build.

I count five acid spells with no DCs: four single-target and one AoE. But there are still several acid spells with DCs, including two of your Earth SLAs and epic abilities like Energy Blast or Hellball. Plus a couple other useful Conjuration spells with DCs like Web, Glitterdust, and Trap the Soul. So I don't know that I would say Earth Savant "doesn't care about DCs," only that that they have more spells which aren't DC-dependent than other Savants.

The other main issue would be lack of feats: wizard provides up to five bonus feats, sorcerer provides zero. Difficult to squeeze in full melee DPS and caster feats.

That said, you could test your idea with e.g. Bladeforged paladin 1 / sorcerer 14: max STR, then CHA and CON. [Final build sorc 18 / pal 2 to add Divine Might.] Tier-5 Eldritch Knight, BF Recon SLA, leftover APs into Earth Savant. I'd be curious as to how well it pans out for you.

EDIT: it's a question of priorities and expectations. If you think of this as a highly self-sufficient melee DPS build with WF/BF immunities and your no-save acid spells are just to proc EK bonuses, you'll probably have better results than if you expect this to be melee/caster DPS hybrid.

Fair enough on the expectations part, and good comparison with Gilga's EK. My thoughts would be that Tempest would clear packs easily enough, and the acid spells would only be relevant on tougher monsters (Where DoT effects are not as bad), and proc'ing different "on spell cast" effects, both in EK and in ES. Only problem I have with WF/BF is the complete lack of decent defenses, as having any of the better armor types would impose a feat tax and even then would be very poor AC-wise. Even if I have to rely on heal scrolls, it was my understanding that unless you cannot use armor in any form, you were pretty much always better off as a fleshy. I see it worked in this build, but with how feat tight the sorc version would be, I don't see the toaster version being worth it.

[unbongwah]

Adamantine Body is functionally equivalent to heavy armor and there's enough ASF reduction in the EK and racial trees that it's not an issue, particularly if you're starting at level 15 on BF.

Switching to human would be a net gain of two feats but you lose WF/BF immunities and self-Repairability which is the appeal of an EK build like Gilga1's. Relying on Heal scrolls for mid-combat heals would be...ill-advised IMO compared to a Quickened Recon SLA. Remember: the DPS of every soulstone is zero.

[Stravix]

Adamantine Body is functionally equivalent to heavy armor and there's enough ASF reduction in the EK and racial trees that it's not an issue, particularly if you're starting at level 15 on BF.

Switching to human would be a net gain of two feats but you lose WF/BF immunities and self-Repairability which is the appeal of an EK build like Gilga1's. Relying on Heal scrolls for mid-combat heals would be...ill-advised IMO compared to a Quickened Recon SLA. Remember: the DPS of every soulstone is zero.

I might be a little out of date on my defense information, but isn't adamantine body significantly worse than normal heavy armor? It has a very low AC, and a MDB of only +1, as opposed to most full plates being +8 by endgame. Wouldn't this kill your dodge chance too much to be feasible?

[C-Dog]

Heavy Armor builds don't rely on dodge (as much), they trade that for PRR.

[unbongwah]

I might be a little out of date on my defense information, but isn't adamantine body significantly worse than normal heavy armor? It has a very low AC, and a MDB of only +1, as opposed to most full plates being +8 by endgame. Wouldn't this kill your dodge chance too much to be feasible?

The AC bonus comes from your docent which should scale to be on par with heavy armors of the same minimum level. True, the MDB is capped at 1, but a few extra points of AC/Dodge aren't worth the huge tradeoff in survivability. Also a pure sorc will only get medium armor proficiency from EK anyway, unless you multiclass.

Wizard Eldritch Knight works well for a fleshie race because of Pale Master; undead forms provide the self-(un)healing, immunities, and possibly other bonuses like Incorporealty. A sorcerer Eldritch Knight is a lot more constrained in its options; you're going to make an already niche build even niche-ier if you don't go with Warforged/Bladeforged for self-Repairability, racial immunities, etc.

[Stravix]

The AC bonus comes from your docent which should scale to be on par with heavy armors of the same minimum level. True, the MDB is capped at 1, but a few extra points of AC/Dodge aren't worth the huge tradeoff in survivability. Also a pure sorc will only get medium armor proficiency from EK anyway, unless you multiclass.

Wizard Eldritch Knight works well for a fleshie race because of Pale Master; undead forms provide the self-(un)healing, immunities, and possibly other bonuses like Incorporealty. A sorcerer Eldritch Knight is a lot more constrained in its options; you're going to make an already niche build even niche-ier if you don't go with Warforged/Bladeforged for self-Repairability, racial immunities, etc.

I am guessing the wiki is just fairly out of date then. Comparing L:Part of the Family set items, it says that Umbral Soul has an AC of 26 in Ad, while Enforcer's Plate has 40.

Also, how important is self-healing in the current state of the game? I thought that reaper made self healing basically irrelevant and healing was mostly relegated to OoC healing by allies to bypass the self-healing penalties. Obv some degree of self healing is needed due to possible poor party members, but I was under the impression it wasn't super important.

Thanks again for helping me with this.

[unbongwah]

Comparing L:Part of the Family set items, it says that Umbral Soul has an AC of 26 in Ad, while Enforcer's Plate has 40.

There's two parts to the AC from a docent: the Enhancement bonus plus an additional bonus based on your body feat if you took one. So Umbral Soul is 15 + 26 = 41.

[Stravix]

There's two parts to the AC from a docent: the Enhancement bonus plus an additional bonus based on your body feat if you took one. So Umbral Soul is 15 + 26 = 41.

Ahhh, that explains a lot more. Seems weird that the wiki would lump them together for one type or armor, but not the other, but that works out.