Sorcerer vs Alchemist at end game?

[MrChipinator]

These transmute DCs sure look like magister DCs...or do you have transmute focus feat and twisted? Conjugation seems right though for draconic. If they’re not magister you mind explaining how you get 117 standing no reaction with only 119 int?

If you've got every DC booster in the game (feats, PL, RXP, augments, Filigrees, ED / Twists) it's possible to hit those numbers, but I'd imagine Pew is probably puffing up his feathers because of how abhorrent some peoples game knowledge is in the thread.

Drop some from having a bard with you and a few more from here and there and he's probably doing about 110 standing with bursts into the 125 range (+5 Verdanite + 3 Reaper boost + 5 from the epic feat + an ED twist or somethin' similar)

He's got about +5 DC from past lives/RXP that I don't have yet as well, but even with all that when I was in Magister with Apothecary I was able to burst way up into the 130's. Alchemist has tight windows of insane power that if you juggle the cycles on you get to do some really awesome stuff.

[Edro70]

One of the changes from my guide I’m currently testing out is dropping one of the alchemical studies lines to pick up wizard active PL again and trans focus, with a twist from magister in my t2. My standing int is 120, for nuke burst I swap my t3 lgs from +2 exceptional int to exceptional fire sp. might be missing some things from various changes over time

Gotcha , that math adds up about right ty. I knew it had to be either that or magister. Is your conj still 121 without the conj focus and twist?

[Edro70]

If you've got every DC booster in the game (feats, PL, RXP, augments, Filigrees, ED / Twists) it's possible to hit those numbers, but I'd imagine Pew is probably puffing up his feathers because of how abhorrent some peoples game knowledge is in the thread.

Drop some from having a bard with you and a few more from here and there and he's probably doing about 110 standing with bursts into the 125 range (+5 Verdanite + 3 Reaper boost + 5 from the epic feat + an ED twist or somethin' similar)

He's got about +5 DC from past lives/RXP that I don't have yet as well, but even with all that when I was in Magister with Apothecary I was able to burst way up into the 130's. Alchemist has tight windows of insane power that if you juggle the cycles on you get to do some really awesome stuff.

Yea I was referring to his unboosted of 117, I can get those numbers with the feat swaps that I was expecting he had. I was just mentioning how his guide and screenshot of his int didn’t add up without some changes.

[PeWBOOMPeW]

Gotcha , that math adds up about right ty. I knew it had to be either that or magister. Is your conj still 121 without the conj focus and twist?

The conj is lower without the conj focus twist probably, I wasn’t sure on that one. I’ve been lucky to have friends carrying the -10 reflex twist for me

[MrChipinator]

Yea I was referring to his unboosted of 117, I can get those numbers with the feat swaps that I was expecting he had. I was just mentioning how his guide and screenshot of his int didn’t add up without some changes.

His ravenous hunger to perfect Alchemist is admirable, to the point where I wonder if he's taken up chemistry in his free time to see what he can min/max.

[Lonnbeimnech]

"My arbitrary definitions of DPS are DPS, not yours."

"Project Nemesis has so many shrines in it, who needs to conserve SP lol?"

Yeah, I don't know how it is possible to be as wrong as you are, but congratulations on getting there.

Since SP doesn't matter make sure you cap out your FvS mana at around 2K for raid healing since it doesn't matter. Since burst DPS doesn't kill red names make sure you tell all the meta r10 throwers who use burst damage they should TR. Since clearing trash isn't dps make sure you bring shield bashing warlock tanks into quests to kill anything immune to instant death spells (aka Reapers).

The definition of DPS is something that has been established in the gaming community for ages, measuring damage dealt over a period of time and not how much you can do with one big hit.

hypothetical example, player one can do 100,000 per hit but can only attack once every 5 seconds, player two only does 10,000 damage per hit, but attacks 3 times a second. Player 2 does more DPS. Right? More damage over the same period of time. Player one can one hit things more often, but does less damage in the long run.

In this game measuring dps against trash that dies in 1 or 2 hits is meaningless, otherwise DC warlocks instakilling trash would be the highest dps . How much damage do you in a place like baba's hut end fight? Ya know, something with millions of HP that you cant just one shot. Do you honestly do all that toggling between pyrite and orchidium and verdanite and THEN attack for 12 seconds, and then retoggle? really? If that works for you and you enjoy it, thats cool. I find it to be a bit OCD for my taste.

And as far as the sp conservation... on a sorc? why? How do you run out of sp on a sorc? Do you keep ALL metamagics on ALL the time?

[PeWBOOMPeW]

The definition of DPS is something that has been established in the gaming community for ages, measuring damage dealt over a period of time and not how much you can do with one big hit.

hypothetical example, player one can do 100,000 per hit but can only attack once every 5 seconds, player two only does 10,000 damage per hit, but attacks 3 times a second. Player 2 does more DPS. Right? More damage over the same period of time. Player one can one hit things more often, but does less damage in the long run.

In this game measuring dps against trash that dies in 1 or 2 hits is meaningless, otherwise DC warlocks instakilling trash would be the highest dps . How much damage do you in a place like baba's hut end fight? Ya know, something with millions of HP that you cant just one shot. Do you honestly do all that toggling between pyrite and orchidium and verdanite and THEN attack for 12 seconds, and then retoggle? really? If that works for you and you enjoy it, thats cool. I find it to be a bit OCD for my taste.

And as far as the sp conservation... on a sorc? why? How do you run out of sp on a sorc? Do you keep ALL metamagics on ALL the time?

Congratulations, yes, that’s how dps works. What are you not understanding that burst DPS is still DPS? Even aside from that Alchemist sustained damage is STILL BETTER than sorcs. A couple weeks ago i ran an alchemist for reaper 10 project nemesis. The sustained dps was plenty to finish elemental side rooms and help with bosses.. You don’t seem to understand how fluidly alchemist changes stances. Spiking reaction literally requires me to insert a single blue spell in my regular dps rotation. If you find it to be a bit OCD fine that’s on you, but it’s another example of alchemist having a higher max potential than sorc.

It really seems like you have not played alchemist at a high enough level to make any sort of comparison, and that you’re holding onto sorc as king out of your own biases. I highly recommend you play the class to its max potential before trying to make statements dismissing it.

[makmakkabab]

10000% more fun and engaging.

Above someone mentioned sorcs rotation as Acid Blast Meteor Swarm DBF and fireball.

Alch rotation includes SLA multi, multi, Molotov, elemental combination, elemental obliteration, voltaic burst, cindersmoke.
Each spell plays a different role and should be used for different purposes.

The reaction system is one of the best designed game mechanics SSG has released in years. It keeps you thinking about what you’re using and what you’re planning to use, rather than the “me cast meteor swarm” approach of sorc. You could play alchemist that simplistically, but the class REALLY rewards you for playing it to the max potential in terms of reactions.

For more info check out my attached guide; alchemist definitely needs to be tuned, but on the caster side it is one of the most engaging classes SSG has ever released.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...XsxMLnDf01qYxQ

Will your guide work for poison instead of fire? I don't have any raid gear and my current selection of sharn/rl gear from my palemaster probably supports poison better.

[timmy9999]

He who zergs wins da kill count...you're there first, you kill first, u come first. But you die first, a good alchemist will trash a sorc.

[Carpone]

Will your guide work for poison instead of fire? I don't have any raid gear and my current selection of sharn/rl gear from my palemaster probably supports poison better.

Poison is suboptimal until devs support Poison in Draconic Incarnation and Dragonborn trees, which means it wont happen before the heat death of the universe. And that assumes you have a Null. Without a Null, it's on the same level as acid and lightning: An extremely poor choice.

[makmakkabab]

Poison is suboptimal until devs support Poison in Draconic Incarnation and Dragonborn trees, which means it wont happen before the heat death of the universe. And that assumes you have a Null. Without a Null, it's on the same level as acid and lightning: An extremely poor choice.

Disappointing, but thanks.

[Tobril]

Sorcerers can DDoor away when asked to do laundry, clean their room, etc.

Alchemists are stuck doing chores AND have to hide all their bottles of "spells".

[SpartanKiller13]

Sorcerers can DDoor away when asked to do laundry, clean their room, etc.

Alchemists are stuck doing chores AND have to hide all their bottles of "spells".

The real reason all the cool Alchemists run Shadowdancer, I get it now!

Alternatively Dragonmark of Passage?

[slarden]

DCs
- pretty sure alchy wins here
Slarden's break down for alchy

That breakdown is outdated.

A few quick notes on this - that dc breakdown was an attempt to show max transmutation on a support build focusing on cc (mass flesh to gold, turn to frog, etc.), but most people are playing bombadier's focusing on conjuration for dps because it's easier to play and more effective overall because of the immunity stripping and dps blasting being more reliable of a playstyle than dc casting. Alot of the powerful alchemist spells go against a fort save so are tougher to land in difficult content. DPS always works esp with alchemist and sorc.

Tiefling seems to be the preferred race because of the crit boost and additional sla to strip fire immunity, but dragonborn is the best race for DC for sorc as there is a +3 evocation and conjuration boost in tier 4. Bladeforged requires a +1 lesser and lower DC potential but comes with a bonus reconstruct so for shortman mid skulls you are looking for it's also a consideration because of the self healing available while in the magister destiny. I have a breakdown of bladeforged self-healing by skull in the warlock build in my sig (the bladeforged build).

I don't know if you could argue one class is better than the other, they are both top tier builds and have different strengths. The immunity stripping is probably too strong in both cases and should be adjusted, but I think that ship has sailed.

Some of the advantages of alchemist spells have been mentioned. From a DC spell perspective the big advantage a sorc has is many of the support spells go against a will save - dancing sphere, mass hold that generally require a lower dc compared to spells going against a fort save. Since most alchemists are playing dragonborn a sorc dragonborn ends up with 2 more DC from race due to charisma being 4 higher than int can be. Sorc has very little dc support in enhancement trees, but some of the alchemist dc boost requires a specific color.

What the OP is describing is similar to my own play pattern - short manning mid and slightly higher skulls or joining public raids on R1, LH typically, sometimes LN - I just go with whatever difficulty the host chooses and only comment if there is a huge disconnect between the party and difficulty.

For the scenario the OP is interested in I would either play bladeforged sorc or alchemist for self-healing unless there is a healer in the party. If healing others in the party was important I would play alchemist. I personally use warlock for that purpose although dps is clearly lower, but I like some of the other abilities. It's probably easier to build an alchemist that scales to R10 vs. a bladeforged sorc if you are interested in R10 play.