Sorcerer vs Alchemist at end game?

[Iaga]

Hey Folks

I’m looking for some feedback on sorc vs achy in end game play (R6-7+ usually short manned and raids).

I’m used to playing a cookie cutter thiefling fire sorc with 31 Ap in EK for defense. Optimized gear, 65 reaper points, +8 tome, racial/heroic completionist.

I’ve grouped with 2, maybe 3 alchies - I’m pretty sure they’re uber completionists with significantly more reaper points than me - who do really well.

My only achy life was … disappointing. DPS, survivability, clearing speed - all felt way worse than my sorc. BUT, I have all the right gear and experience with sorc and certainly short changed achy who had decent gear and far less experience.

Can I get some feedback from end game caster alchies? DPS? Versatility? Defenses? Anything else relevant? How do they compare to sorcs?

Thanks

[Iaga]

Taking a stab at this myself to hopefully get the ball rolling ...

In one corner we have the cookie cutter thiefling fire source with 41 AP in Fire, 31 in EK, 18 in thiefling (end game, assuming lots of racial AP)
In the other corner, we have DB alchy with 41 AP in Bomb, 17ish in Apo, 12 in Harper, 18 in DB (something like this)

Spell power
- nod to sorc I believe
sorc maxes out with all the goodies at around 1900 (link)
linked build above hits 1730ish


DCs
- pretty sure alchy wins here
Slarden's break down for alchy

SPELL Selection/Versatility
- sorc is using MS and DBF as their main DPS spells on 3.5sec and 3sec CDs
- alchy is using multi-vial (can't find timer on wiki?) Need some help/input here please.

Instakill - sorc using finger on a 6 sec CD vs alchy using frog on a ??? CD (more help, wiki not helpful)

CC
- sorc has mass hold, OID, PWS, FtS, web (maybe) vs alchy using Mass FtG - alchy will have higher DCs I think, but sorc has more options and I don't think FtG makes targets helpless... - thinking sorc wins here

Reaper CC
- from what I have read, this is an issue for alchy - giving the nod to sorc here ...

They both have displace

HP
- this is even - both classes are D4

SP
- sorc
Alchy has a solid SLA DPS option, but I still think a sorc's pool is going to be deeper

PRR/MRR
- nod to Sorc running in EK

Evasion
- nod to Achy

Healing
- nod to Alchy
twists can be the same, gear the same, achy has heal pot, sorc gets nada

Movement
- alchy has bottled spring boost

Input greatly appreciated on what I have wrong (likely a bunch) and what I'm missing (like a bunch more).

Thanks!

[Question2005]

I dont see any alchs having issue with damage at all. Ive seen an alch do 95% damage to ravenloft mobs on r4. I consistently see alchs one shotting entire encounters below cap, just like a sorc.

The main difference is that alch gets frog for totems at cap and can act as a healer which is a huge plus when regular healers are in short supply.

[LurkingVeteran]

OP: Check the DDO Compendium instead of the wiki, it has Alchy CDs.

I'm not up to date on the current meta, but mathematically Alchy Multivial does slightly more damage than Meteor but has a 6s CD instead of 3.5. They also have a Multi-vial SLA on 12s CD though. Their immediate burst is likely better than sorc, but sorc gets pretty close with their second meteor and it should be pretty close after that. Sorc gets more caster levels on DI SLAs, so are likely slightly stronger up-close, but slightly weaker at range.

Technically, I suspect DBF has larger AoE than Alchy Molotov, but alchy could also potentially dig up something that is better than Fireball (e.g. Elemental Combination) if you were to go all-out in sustained DPS.

Verdict: DPS is very close.

Biggest downside is that Alchy does not have ranged mass hold. It does have a number of blinds/slows that largely fulfill their CC needs for soloing at least.

Biggest advantages are of course run speed, heals (clunky), evasion and saves.

Frog is probably better than Finger, but they lack wail and circle.

Less spell points, but spells are cheaper anyway.

TLDR; Alchy has similar DPS, is a better soloer (if you can evade), and in a party can fill both healer and CC roles but isn't great at either.

That run speed + run speed boost spell must be ideal for clearing speed though.

[Monkey_Archer]

CC
- sorc has mass hold, OID, PWS, FtS, web (maybe) vs alchy using Mass FtG - alchy will have higher DCs I think, but sorc has more options and I don't think FtG makes targets helpless... - thinking sorc wins here

Reaper CC
- from what I have read, this is an issue for alchy - giving the nod to sorc here ...

The only good CC that arcane casters have is mass hold, and roughly half of all mobs and some champions are immune to it completely. All the other useful cc abilities that arcanes have (disco ball, web, etc..) are arbitrarily made useless by the reduction in cc duration in high reaper. Alchemists have flash freeze and mass FtG, both of which typically have higher DC than mass holds, last longer and work on nearly everything. Arcanes and alchemists both have pros and cons for lower difficulties, but for R8+ its not even close.

[LurkingVeteran]

You have to be close though, isn't that a problem in R10?

I forgot one more alchy pro though, somebody reported that they can use epic defensive fighting for +25% more hp without it impacting their spells.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Alchemist is more powerful in the hands of an excellent player.

Sorcerer is more fun.

[Iaga]

... ravenloft mobs on r4 ... and can act as a healer ...

With the power creep in the game, r4 isn't really an issue for meta builds at least. I don't even have to slow down for most r4s. The healer part is what has me considering switching from Sorc to Alchy. All I can do on my sorc is DPS - adding another facet to my game play has some appeal.

OP: Check the DDO Compendium instead of the wiki, it has Alchy CDs.

That's a new site for me. It's providing some of the info I was missing. thank you!

I'm not up to date on the current meta, but mathematically Alchy Multivial does slightly more damage than Meteor but has a 6s CD instead of 3.5. They also have a Multi-vial SLA on 12s CD though. Their immediate burst is likely better than sorc, but sorc gets pretty close with their second meteor and it should be pretty close after that.

So a sorc will take ~14 seconds to get off 5 MS casts vs an alchy who will take ~12 seconds, but a little more spikey. What about breaking immunity? MS does that on the first meter and the next 3 are good - so, one cast. Does alchy have the same immunity breaking or do they need multiple casts?

Sorc gets more caster levels on DI SLAs, so are likely slightly stronger up-close, but slightly weaker at range.

What do you mean by this? E Burst and D Breathe are stronger - agreed.

That run speed + run speed boost spell must be ideal for clearing speed though.

They have bottled boost which is a sprint buff - what's the second one? (or first one)

The only good CC that arcane casters have is mass hold, and roughly half of all mobs and some champions are immune to it completely. All the other useful cc abilities that arcanes have (disco ball, web, etc..) are arbitrarily made useless by the reduction in cc duration in high reaper. Alchemists have flash freeze and mass FtG, both of which typically have higher DC than mass holds, last longer and work on nearly everything. Arcanes and alchemists both have pros and cons for lower difficulties, but for R8+ its not even close.

For R6- cc isn't really needed. MS from range and then Dragon breathe or E burst and keep on running. You make a good point.

Alchemist is more powerful in the hands of an excellent player.

Sorcerer is more fun.

I always loved sorcs. Got to a point a while ago where they just weren't viable - really glad they are again. Having said that, they're pretty simple to play. The answer to most questions is MS and repeat as needed.

Thanks for the input folks - this is what I was looking for.

[rabidfox]

The healer part is what has me considering switching from Sorc to Alchy.

Just don't rely on alch heals. There's a RNG factor where the pots (even when self-targeted) will miss/fly-off/be blocked by some environmental aspect, etc and be a wasted cast. They're a nice extra but you'll sometimes see a death/wipe that a FvS or Cleric would've prevented because their heal would've landed. I will say, for leveling, that the T1 alch SLA AoE Cure + Temp health based of Int is silly nice during heroic levels.

[Lonnbeimnech]

you can play a dps alchy in draconic and still have DCs for turn to frog, vein freeze, glue bomb and flesh to gold. sorc in draconic will have sketchy DCs

alchy gets evasion, where sorc is going to be in medium armor with a shield and about +180 MRR

Sorc is better dps overall, not just better with dragon breath and energy burst caster level as covered above.
DBF has 3 second cooldown, meteor swarm 3.5 seconds, alchemist is going to multivial every 6 seconds and SLA multivial every 12, its really no contest

[mr420247]

Don't waste your time on either cuz alch xmas sale and guess what ur builds garbage welcome to lockland and caster world sevs game

Pally bear or go home

[Lonnbeimnech]

Don't waste your time on either cuz alch xmas sale and guess what ur builds garbage welcome to lockland and caster world sevs game

Pally bear or go home

Yeah, I'm really liking pally these days as well.

[PeWBOOMPeW]

Alchemist blows sorc away atm. Not even a fair fight.

[Soulfurnace]

Alch is currently in a much better place, however we're fortunate most players can't handle being near enough to enemies to use alch CC, and as such alchs are stillf lying under the radar.

Having played as a sorc many times, and with my mate as an actual endgame alch, alch dominates sorc in some filthy ways.

[Iaga]

Alchemist blows sorc away atm. Not even a fair fight.

...alch dominates sorc in some filthy ways.

Either one of you guys care to elaborate on that?

DCs - Alchy
PRR/MMR - Sorc
Evasion - Alchy

DPS - Alchy (is it really by that much?)

CC - Sorc

Not that I'm doubting anyone, but, I was hoping to some examples. Should be easy to do if Alchy is leaps and bounds better than Sorc as you're suggesting?

Totally agree that Alchy is a harder class to play effectively.

[HuneyMunster]

Either one of you guys care to elaborate on that?

DCs - Alchy
PRR/MMR - Sorc
Evasion - Alchy

DPS - Alchy (is it really by that much?)

CC - Sorc

Not that I'm doubting anyone, but, I was hoping to some examples. Should be easy to do if Alchy is leaps and bounds better than Sorc as you're suggesting?

Totally agree that Alchy is a harder class to play effectively.

CC for Alchy is at time better than CC for Sorc. This depends on the types of monsters they are fighting. For example Scarecrows are immune to all Sorc CC with the exception of Web and Prismatic Spray/Ray. Web is useless for fire Sorc as it get burned, while Prismatic is random. Alchy freeze attacks works on most constructs that don't have spell resistances as well as other monsters that tend to be immune to a lot of other CC spells. Sorc has better CC for Reapers with Hold Monster while Alchy has only Salt Crystals(daze) and Hypnotic Combination/Dust of Confusion (Confuse). I have no idea if Sleep Powder works on reapers which is underrated considering the time it takes for them to stand back up. Nightshade Shooter Crossbow is a good example of how useful Nightshade Venom is. Now thinking about it I don't remember it ever proc on Reapers so gonna assume they are immune to Sleep.

[LurkingVeteran]

Iaga:

"They have bottled boost which is a sprint buff - what's the second one? (or first one)"

You can pick up +20% run speed in T4 apothecary, but it only works via Verdant reaction. Not sure how viable it is to maintain this while nuking, but run speed is always nice if you want to maximize clearing speed. I haven't actually tried this in-game, so YMMY.

[SirValentine]

You have to be close though, isn't that a problem in R10?

You glue first, then freeze. If you tried to freeze first, it could be a problem.

I forgot one more alchy pro though, somebody reported that they can use epic defensive fighting for +25% more hp without it impacting their spells.

You mean 5%? Or do you fit in 4 melee style feats on a caster build?

[SirValentine]

...alch...can act as a healer which is a huge plus when regular healers are in short supply.

For some strange reason, Alch can get massive heals. You have a Cleric casting a Heal for like 3K, and an Alch throwing a Heal bottle for like 10K. But for some other strange reason, Alch heals, unlike other things they throw, cannot be Quickened. Alch heals are so slow. If you have a tank, or others who can take 3 hits, an Alch can easily top people up, but if anyone's getting 2-shot, an Alch probably won't be able to save them in time.

[Tyrande]

For some strange reason, Alch can get massive heals. You have a Cleric casting a Heal for like 3K, and an Alch throwing a Heal bottle for like 10K. But for some other strange reason, Alch heals, unlike other things they throw, cannot be Quickened. [...]

Alchemists' Heal bottle can be Maximized, Empowered, Intensified and Empowered Heal enabled while cleric heal spell can only have Empowered Heal (add quicken, enlarge) but not the rest of the meta-magics that alchemist have.

It seems as though the alchemist heal bottle is an attack spell for undeads.