Sorcerer vs Alchemist at end game?

[Iaga]

Hey Folks

I’m looking for some feedback on sorc vs achy in end game play (R6-7+ usually short manned and raids).

I’m used to playing a cookie cutter thiefling fire sorc with 31 Ap in EK for defense. Optimized gear, 65 reaper points, +8 tome, racial/heroic completionist.

I’ve grouped with 2, maybe 3 alchies - I’m pretty sure they’re uber completionists with significantly more reaper points than me - who do really well.

My only achy life was … disappointing. DPS, survivability, clearing speed - all felt way worse than my sorc. BUT, I have all the right gear and experience with sorc and certainly short changed achy who had decent gear and far less experience.

Can I get some feedback from end game caster alchies? DPS? Versatility? Defenses? Anything else relevant? How do they compare to sorcs?

Thanks

[Iaga]

Taking a stab at this myself to hopefully get the ball rolling ...

In one corner we have the cookie cutter thiefling fire source with 41 AP in Fire, 31 in EK, 18 in thiefling (end game, assuming lots of racial AP)
In the other corner, we have DB alchy with 41 AP in Bomb, 17ish in Apo, 12 in Harper, 18 in DB (something like this)

Spell power
- nod to sorc I believe
sorc maxes out with all the goodies at around 1900 (link)
linked build above hits 1730ish


DCs
- pretty sure alchy wins here
Slarden's break down for alchy

SPELL Selection/Versatility
- sorc is using MS and DBF as their main DPS spells on 3.5sec and 3sec CDs
- alchy is using multi-vial (can't find timer on wiki?) Need some help/input here please.

Instakill - sorc using finger on a 6 sec CD vs alchy using frog on a ??? CD (more help, wiki not helpful)

CC
- sorc has mass hold, OID, PWS, FtS, web (maybe) vs alchy using Mass FtG - alchy will have higher DCs I think, but sorc has more options and I don't think FtG makes targets helpless... - thinking sorc wins here

Reaper CC
- from what I have read, this is an issue for alchy - giving the nod to sorc here ...

They both have displace

HP
- this is even - both classes are D4

SP
- sorc
Alchy has a solid SLA DPS option, but I still think a sorc's pool is going to be deeper

PRR/MRR
- nod to Sorc running in EK

Evasion
- nod to Achy

Healing
- nod to Alchy
twists can be the same, gear the same, achy has heal pot, sorc gets nada

Movement
- alchy has bottled spring boost

Input greatly appreciated on what I have wrong (likely a bunch) and what I'm missing (like a bunch more).

Thanks!

[Question2005]

I dont see any alchs having issue with damage at all. Ive seen an alch do 95% damage to ravenloft mobs on r4. I consistently see alchs one shotting entire encounters below cap, just like a sorc.

The main difference is that alch gets frog for totems at cap and can act as a healer which is a huge plus when regular healers are in short supply.

[LurkingVeteran]

OP: Check the DDO Compendium instead of the wiki, it has Alchy CDs.

I'm not up to date on the current meta, but mathematically Alchy Multivial does slightly more damage than Meteor but has a 6s CD instead of 3.5. They also have a Multi-vial SLA on 12s CD though. Their immediate burst is likely better than sorc, but sorc gets pretty close with their second meteor and it should be pretty close after that. Sorc gets more caster levels on DI SLAs, so are likely slightly stronger up-close, but slightly weaker at range.

Technically, I suspect DBF has larger AoE than Alchy Molotov, but alchy could also potentially dig up something that is better than Fireball (e.g. Elemental Combination) if you were to go all-out in sustained DPS.

Verdict: DPS is very close.

Biggest downside is that Alchy does not have ranged mass hold. It does have a number of blinds/slows that largely fulfill their CC needs for soloing at least.

Biggest advantages are of course run speed, heals (clunky), evasion and saves.

Frog is probably better than Finger, but they lack wail and circle.

Less spell points, but spells are cheaper anyway.

TLDR; Alchy has similar DPS, is a better soloer (if you can evade), and in a party can fill both healer and CC roles but isn't great at either.

That run speed + run speed boost spell must be ideal for clearing speed though.

[SirValentine]

...alch...can act as a healer which is a huge plus when regular healers are in short supply.

For some strange reason, Alch can get massive heals. You have a Cleric casting a Heal for like 3K, and an Alch throwing a Heal bottle for like 10K. But for some other strange reason, Alch heals, unlike other things they throw, cannot be Quickened. Alch heals are so slow. If you have a tank, or others who can take 3 hits, an Alch can easily top people up, but if anyone's getting 2-shot, an Alch probably won't be able to save them in time.

[Tyrande]

For some strange reason, Alch can get massive heals. You have a Cleric casting a Heal for like 3K, and an Alch throwing a Heal bottle for like 10K. But for some other strange reason, Alch heals, unlike other things they throw, cannot be Quickened. [...]

Alchemists' Heal bottle can be Maximized, Empowered, Intensified and Empowered Heal enabled while cleric heal spell can only have Empowered Heal (add quicken, enlarge) but not the rest of the meta-magics that alchemist have.

It seems as though the alchemist heal bottle is an attack spell for undeads.

[timmy9999]

He who zergs wins da kill count...you're there first, you kill first, u come first. But you die first, a good alchemist will trash a sorc.

[Monkey_Archer]

CC
- sorc has mass hold, OID, PWS, FtS, web (maybe) vs alchy using Mass FtG - alchy will have higher DCs I think, but sorc has more options and I don't think FtG makes targets helpless... - thinking sorc wins here

Reaper CC
- from what I have read, this is an issue for alchy - giving the nod to sorc here ...

The only good CC that arcane casters have is mass hold, and roughly half of all mobs and some champions are immune to it completely. All the other useful cc abilities that arcanes have (disco ball, web, etc..) are arbitrarily made useless by the reduction in cc duration in high reaper. Alchemists have flash freeze and mass FtG, both of which typically have higher DC than mass holds, last longer and work on nearly everything. Arcanes and alchemists both have pros and cons for lower difficulties, but for R8+ its not even close.

[LurkingVeteran]

You have to be close though, isn't that a problem in R10?

I forgot one more alchy pro though, somebody reported that they can use epic defensive fighting for +25% more hp without it impacting their spells.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Alchemist is more powerful in the hands of an excellent player.

Sorcerer is more fun.

[Iaga]

... ravenloft mobs on r4 ... and can act as a healer ...

With the power creep in the game, r4 isn't really an issue for meta builds at least. I don't even have to slow down for most r4s. The healer part is what has me considering switching from Sorc to Alchy. All I can do on my sorc is DPS - adding another facet to my game play has some appeal.

OP: Check the DDO Compendium instead of the wiki, it has Alchy CDs.

That's a new site for me. It's providing some of the info I was missing. thank you!

I'm not up to date on the current meta, but mathematically Alchy Multivial does slightly more damage than Meteor but has a 6s CD instead of 3.5. They also have a Multi-vial SLA on 12s CD though. Their immediate burst is likely better than sorc, but sorc gets pretty close with their second meteor and it should be pretty close after that.

So a sorc will take ~14 seconds to get off 5 MS casts vs an alchy who will take ~12 seconds, but a little more spikey. What about breaking immunity? MS does that on the first meter and the next 3 are good - so, one cast. Does alchy have the same immunity breaking or do they need multiple casts?

Sorc gets more caster levels on DI SLAs, so are likely slightly stronger up-close, but slightly weaker at range.

What do you mean by this? E Burst and D Breathe are stronger - agreed.

That run speed + run speed boost spell must be ideal for clearing speed though.

They have bottled boost which is a sprint buff - what's the second one? (or first one)

The only good CC that arcane casters have is mass hold, and roughly half of all mobs and some champions are immune to it completely. All the other useful cc abilities that arcanes have (disco ball, web, etc..) are arbitrarily made useless by the reduction in cc duration in high reaper. Alchemists have flash freeze and mass FtG, both of which typically have higher DC than mass holds, last longer and work on nearly everything. Arcanes and alchemists both have pros and cons for lower difficulties, but for R8+ its not even close.

For R6- cc isn't really needed. MS from range and then Dragon breathe or E burst and keep on running. You make a good point.

Alchemist is more powerful in the hands of an excellent player.

Sorcerer is more fun.

I always loved sorcs. Got to a point a while ago where they just weren't viable - really glad they are again. Having said that, they're pretty simple to play. The answer to most questions is MS and repeat as needed.

Thanks for the input folks - this is what I was looking for.

[SirValentine]

You have to be close though, isn't that a problem in R10?

You glue first, then freeze. If you tried to freeze first, it could be a problem.

I forgot one more alchy pro though, somebody reported that they can use epic defensive fighting for +25% more hp without it impacting their spells.

You mean 5%? Or do you fit in 4 melee style feats on a caster build?

[slarden]

DCs
- pretty sure alchy wins here
Slarden's break down for alchy

That breakdown is outdated.

A few quick notes on this - that dc breakdown was an attempt to show max transmutation on a support build focusing on cc (mass flesh to gold, turn to frog, etc.), but most people are playing bombadier's focusing on conjuration for dps because it's easier to play and more effective overall because of the immunity stripping and dps blasting being more reliable of a playstyle than dc casting. Alot of the powerful alchemist spells go against a fort save so are tougher to land in difficult content. DPS always works esp with alchemist and sorc.

Tiefling seems to be the preferred race because of the crit boost and additional sla to strip fire immunity, but dragonborn is the best race for DC for sorc as there is a +3 evocation and conjuration boost in tier 4. Bladeforged requires a +1 lesser and lower DC potential but comes with a bonus reconstruct so for shortman mid skulls you are looking for it's also a consideration because of the self healing available while in the magister destiny. I have a breakdown of bladeforged self-healing by skull in the warlock build in my sig (the bladeforged build).

I don't know if you could argue one class is better than the other, they are both top tier builds and have different strengths. The immunity stripping is probably too strong in both cases and should be adjusted, but I think that ship has sailed.

Some of the advantages of alchemist spells have been mentioned. From a DC spell perspective the big advantage a sorc has is many of the support spells go against a will save - dancing sphere, mass hold that generally require a lower dc compared to spells going against a fort save. Since most alchemists are playing dragonborn a sorc dragonborn ends up with 2 more DC from race due to charisma being 4 higher than int can be. Sorc has very little dc support in enhancement trees, but some of the alchemist dc boost requires a specific color.

What the OP is describing is similar to my own play pattern - short manning mid and slightly higher skulls or joining public raids on R1, LH typically, sometimes LN - I just go with whatever difficulty the host chooses and only comment if there is a huge disconnect between the party and difficulty.

For the scenario the OP is interested in I would either play bladeforged sorc or alchemist for self-healing unless there is a healer in the party. If healing others in the party was important I would play alchemist. I personally use warlock for that purpose although dps is clearly lower, but I like some of the other abilities. It's probably easier to build an alchemist that scales to R10 vs. a bladeforged sorc if you are interested in R10 play.