Divine Love

[Ewynn]

I think that the Divines should get a revisit on their spell list. The arcanes got enhancement revisits as did the divines, but the arcanes also got new and invigorated spells. (Some might say too much so, e.g., ever meet a fire sorc that wasn’t OP?). I’m not exactly sure what that would look like, but perhaps it could more diversification between FvS and Cleric spell lists.

Let’s help out SSG with some ideas for new divine spells. Who knows maybe you’ll get a spell named after you. (hint, hint).

PS: Druids might need some new spells too.

[Ewynn]

I think that the Divines should get a revisit on their spell list. The arcanes got enhancement revisits as did the divines, but the arcanes also got new and invigorated spells. Perhaps diety specific spells. I’m not exactly sure what that would look like, but perhaps it could include more diversification between FvS and Cleric spell lists.

Let’s help out SSG with some ideas for new divine spells. Who knows maybe you’ll get a spell named after you. (hint, hint).

PS: Druids might need some new spells too.

revised

[Question2005]

We need a full spell pass. Many of the buffs/debuffs became pointless after the power creep apocalypse happened. Spells like bull's strength in D&D are relevant all the way to level 20, but in DDO are irrelevant when you can get a +4 str item very early. Its really only used to skip the fountains in that borderlands quest now, or people who want to waste time drinking tons of pots for every low level quest before they can equip their +4 ability item.

And debuffs are pointless when they dont affect bosses. For anything that isnt a boss -> CC and kill. Debuffs need to affect bosses, or they just serve no purpose. I mean, can you imagine if vulnerabilty, dust and many debuff abilities such as mark of the hunted had no effect on bosses? People wouldnt bother using them.

The power creep did no favors to DDO, it just created tons of balance issues to try and appeal to people who liked big numbers.

[Tyrande]

Certainly, I can throw some in:

• Miracle (L9)- has four toggles: 1) Can replace any divine level 8 or level 7 with free metamagics. 2) Divine Intervention: like the warpriest T5 ability 3) Turn the Tide of Battle: like the Fatesinger T6 ability. 4) Improved Death Pact: no -2 constitution, always works and restored hit points and buffs to full instead of 10%; it seems like the PC never died. HC server note: still dies on HC.
• Symbol of Insanity (L8): A rune in the air that causes monsters to become insane when activated: Insanity: D&D Insanity sometimes stunned, unconcious, etc. according to a table.
• Anitimagic Field: Like the beholders ability but does not affect the caster.

[Aelonwy]

I think that the Divines should get a revisit on their spell list. The arcanes got enhancement revisits as did the divines, but the arcanes also got new and invigorated spells. (Some might say too much so, e.g., ever meet a fire sorc that wasn’t OP?). I’m not exactly sure what that would look like, but perhaps it could more diversification between FvS and Cleric spell lists.

Let’s help out SSG with some ideas for new divine spells. Who knows maybe you’ll get a spell named after you. (hint, hint).

PS: Druids might need some new spells too.

Its been too long for me to say with certainty but I think the only cleric enhancement tree that had work was the one they shared with Favored Soul (Warpriest/Warsoul). At that same time Favored Souls got their 3rd tree finally Beacon of Hope. But the remaining two cleric trees didn't get the polish/rebalance they should have. Radiant Servant @85 pts to fill the entire tree is one of, if not THE most expensive enhancement tree and its not even a full tree it has 4 empty spaces and an anemic tier5 setup with only 3 tier5s. Divine Disciple also has only 3 tier5s but its a much fuller tree with only 2 gaps and to fill it out costs only 76 pts. Conclusion : Radiant Servant has too many 2 AP per rank multi-rank enhancements, most of which are terrible e.g. Bliss.

I do appreciate all their work on Domains, that has made cleric feel very flavorful and play differently with each life if you change domains.

[Tyrande]

Maybe add another spells:

* (L9?) Divine Improved Mass Bulls/Cats/Bears/Owl's/Eagle's/Fox's: Mass +4 Insight bonus to strength, dexterity, constitution, wisdom, charisma, intelligence. Does not stack with +4+ insight stat items.

* (L9?) Divine Energy Absorption: Your deity buffs you with 25% fire/25% cold/25% acid/25% electric/25% sonic energy absorption.

[LurkingVeteran]

Divines need either more or better offensive spells. The way the game encourages you to specialize in one element hurts divines since they only have one good light spell, two mediocre fire spells and one force. This means their DPS rotations are terrible even disregarding the lower damage dice per spell compared to arcanes. Only Sunbolt is even within spitting distance of arcane options.

Epic+ Druids, ATs, Spellsingers etc are all also in a rather bad spot.

I suspect that it would be easier to roll back the arcane damage dice a bit and implement general casting improvements for epics, perhaps by making metas scale.

[Jerevth]

I'd like to see Divine Casters get a few more spells that do damage per level rather than every two/three levels.
Gaining a spell in their "spell book" seems paltry; metas still cost. A Core should be SLAs for Divine Disciple, along the same lines as the Archmage tree.
They should also gain at least one toggle type ability.

-Convert the masses; toggle. When a cleric demonstrates the nature of their power (A critical) those affected by that spell have a 10% of becoming enthralled.
-Celestial/Fell Spirit (Similar to the warlock ES core for floating): only increase the critical chance for light/dark and increase positive/negative spell power by a decent amount.

Snowballing.
Caster Cleric was fun but underpowered compared to wizards, 'locks and sorcerers. Melee Cleric is fun though I splashed fighter 2 and barb 3 for extra oomph.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Actually, I never quite understood why there is "Close Wounds" and the heal spells ... Doesn't do "Close Wounds" exactly the same a Heal Light Wounds" ? I read that "Close Wounds" is faster, but I have never actually compared it.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Actually, I never quite understood why there is "Close Wounds" and the heal spells ... Doesn't do "Close Wounds" exactly the same a Heal Light Wounds" ? I read that "Close Wounds" is faster, but I have never actually compared it.

Yeah close wounds is near instantaneous to cast, it actually casts faster than quickened CLW, more like lay on hands favoured souls having it available as an SLA with as low as a 1sec cooldown is pretty nifty.

[Chilldude]

I think that the Divines should get a revisit on their spell list. The arcanes got enhancement revisits as did the divines, but the arcanes also got new and invigorated spells. (Some might say too much so, e.g., ever meet a fire sorc that wasn’t OP?). I’m not exactly sure what that would look like, but perhaps it could more diversification between FvS and Cleric spell lists.

Let’s help out SSG with some ideas for new divine spells. Who knows maybe you’ll get a spell named after you. (hint, hint).

PS: Druids might need some new spells too.

My most powerful character, BY FAR, is my first life Angel of Vengeance Favored Soul in Exalted Angel. Arcane didn't get much, and the biggest boost arcane got is available to FVS with a tier 4 twist, because the only truly epic ability that's ever been afforded arcane is Energy Burst and until they allowed evocation to count toward its DC it was hopelessly behind.

Aside from making the DC of Energy Burst functional, the only other impactful thing they did for arcane was increase the max caster level of a sorc's SLAs by 10. It's not a lot, but it's enough to make them seem like you're not piking between EBs. Iceburg and Thunderstroke are great, but they are expensive, especially with metas. Beyond that they are single target, so they are only important in a boss fight were they serve to keep to the sorc from falling too far behind in damage compared to melee and ranged cranking out a constant stream of massive damage.

When people talk about sorcs being OP, I always wonder if they've ever played a sorc in higher difficulties, and if so were there any experienced melee or ranged in the group? It takes a lot, quite a lot, to even get an effective DC on a sorc in r1, until then at least half your damage goes right down the drain because everything saves every time. If you get a sorc kitted out with past lives, tomes, and gear to the point they have an effective DC, 100% of your damage is still tied to spell points. Sure, there are a bunch of quests where the shrines are nearly stacked on top of each other, but there are still quite a few where the shrines are few and far between. Additionally, raids are a thing again! There are a lot more players now and it's not absolutely inconceivable that you will find yourself in a raid. In fact, I did a raid a few days ago myself... Old Baba's Hut... just on normal, first time and all. Only had one divine in the party, so I went into Exalted Angel on my air savant to heal the other group. Being used to a lot of shrines I let her rip with the DPS and found myself out of SP LONG before the first (and only?) shrine. I was running around scroll casting heals on people for what seemed like forever. (It was mostly first timers like me, so it took awhile to coordinate what needed to be done, nice raid BTW.)

Melee and ranged can run out of action boosts and be slightly less uber until the next shrine, but an arcane that runs out of SP is taking up a slot where a melee or ranged could be pumping out damage.

All that being said... I wouldn't be against divines getting more spells, especially some good SLA's (although Sun Bolt is amazing!). However, divines were intended to heal. Some people have a silly notion that there isn't a healing class in DDO. That's absurd. Divines are given dozens of healing and restorative spells, while very few other classes get any at all. The bulk of a divine's spell book is healing, restorative, or defensive in nature. Yet the game hasn't been played that way for as long as I've been playing. So I say spread some of that healing around!!!! Take away most of the Divine healing abilities and give everyone healing abilities. Short of that, I think divines already have far too much power. My FVS, a first life human mind you, who hasn't done any reaper, is virtually unkillable in EE and can certainly bring the pain, yet the whole time he's puttin' the fire to the enemy he's keeping the party healed, all the while it's almost as if he's got solar panels because he barely uses any spell points.

Divine Wrath is AMAZING!!!

Exalted Angel gives a divine Avenging Light, a 3 sp SLA spell that packs a wallop at cap with full metas, Sun Bolt, 12 sp SLA that can be multi target and is an absolute thumper, and Divine Wrath, while 40 points seems hefty, it does massive damage and healing in an AoE! Don't forget the core ability SLA cure moderate mass which fully meta'd put's the sparkle back into just about any red bar. Any divine, investing in light spell power, can go into EA and become a major asset to nearly any party. They might not top the kill count, but they can quickly and efficiently keep the party topped up while doing their fair share of damage. I wouldn't mind seeing the DCs in EA revamped, but the DCs in the entire game are terrible, stupid, and wrong. They need to dump the D20 system and go with sane mechanic based on percents, but that's a story for another time.

[HuneyMunster]

Cleric should be getting some changes according to a post by SteelStar nearly a year ago. So far KOTC, Stalwat, Sacred Defender as well as adjustments to THF and Bows has been done. Bow still need more work to bring them in line with other ranged builds. Sorcerer hasn't had a pass yet with only adding ability to remove elemental immunities and a small nerfs to caster levels.

Sorc Savant tree adjustments (mostly cleanup)
Archmage (still needs design work on our end)
Radiant Servant (mostly needs cost adjustments)
Divine Disciple (still needs design work on our end)

https://ddowiki.com/page/In_development

[droid327]

I dont think that "divines" need love because Paladin is clearly in a good place right now and FvS has some really good builds too.

I dont think the divine spellbook is that far off, either. Its not supposed to go toe-to-toe with the Arcane spellbook in terms of casting DPS, because its got heals and buffs that are way better than Arcane gets. They could use a few improvements to Light spell scaling and geometry, yes, make it more useful...maybe a L9 Light aoe super nuke...but that's more of a minor tweak than a whole Divine Spellbook pass.

Actually, I never quite understood why there is "Close Wounds" and the heal spells ... Doesn't do "Close Wounds" exactly the same a Heal Light Wounds" ? I read that "Close Wounds" is faster, but I have never actually compared it.

Yeah close wounds is near instantaneous to cast, it actually casts faster than quickened CLW, more like lay on hands favoured souls having it available as an SLA with as low as a 1sec cooldown is pretty nifty.

Close Wounds is faster - essentially instant, it doesnt take Quicken - because it doesnt need to. However, unlike Cure spells, it DOES take Max and Empower (on top of Emp Heal), making it really strong early on for DPS caster builds that take those metas.

The CW SLA for FvS is insanely good in Heroic. With good power, metas, and Heal Amp, it can heal you for maybe 20-25% of your max life (assuming you dont have Reaper points up the butt) every second, for 2 SP, without really interrupting your combat chain that much. If you're group healing its essentially a free HP top-off if they dont need a full-fledged Heal. I love it on my Cone Lock because I can just spam it in between cone triplets, and it procs Feigned Health on top of its already solid healing

Man, if they put CW SLA in a Universal tree or a Racial tree - or even just granted it in your spellbook as a regular spell - that'd be so awesome for so many builds without innate self-healing

[zooble]

This is just a pile of things off the top of my head in no particular order:

I tried Divine Disciple nuker leveling in epics but it felt pointless. Maybe I was doing it wrong but to me, SP cost is way too high for enhancement Sunbeam (which did good damage) and most low SP spells have damage that is way too low. So low that I was better off going AA (elf) or Inqui for replacement sustained low-mediocre damage without ranged feats at NO SP cost.

Traditional melee/ranged enhancements can't make up their mind if they scale with spell power or melee/ranged power (lumping Divine Crusader in here too) so you can't just max 1 and be sweet like all other classes. I don't know caster builds that would take some of these things but they could always go spell/melee/ranged multiselector option.

The ranged Ameliorating strike seems so stupid. It should heal regardless of whether you happen to press the button a split second after the target dies. Melee should too but for some reason less problems there.

It would be nice to be able to get more defense without splashing fighter/pally.

Nice to have an option to get additional favored weapons through enhancements like pally.

Clerics and FVS are so feat starved (traditional, not stuff like domains etc) that if you want to be a good healer and dps (not necessarily at the same time due to gear itemisation), you need to splash to get the metas and fighting style feats. 2-3 free metamagics would go a long way to making pure cleric/fvs hybrid dps/healer better. I'd imagine casters would have better dc/spell pen as a result.

Some deities are rubbish. You have god tier Silvanus, some good boosts (but very long cd) with Aureon and Onatar and then you have trash tier Vulkoor.

Cleaves or lack there of. Divine Vessel cleave is rubbish compared to something like Pally's Holy Retribution or Wiz's Eldritch Tempest. I don't get the point of building charges, especially if it's capped per second. It effectively just gives it a longer than stated CD since you have to take time to run between packs of mobs. If charge based, it should be decent and usable with 0 charges (with a cd), good at medium charges and devastating at max charges.

Divine Power (enhancement), I get that it's traditionally +strength but that portion just seems pointless now that we can do something like Wis to hit/dmg.

Awareness enhancement. Listen, spot, search? Does anyone even take that? I get that it would be nice for a Cleric to not get snuck up on or walk into a trap but let's face it, there are not enough skill points floating around to max those 3 + the main ones, let alone fit that stuff on everyday gear.

Positive Energy Shield. That shield is going to have to be a lot bigger if anyone is getting value out of the bonus healing.

All those use Turn Undead to clean/purge/heal enhancements are rubbish. Maybe back when managing SP was a really huge issue (never took that stuff then either) but with Cocoon/renewal/PEA/PEB and huge SP pools, it's easier to throw a spell to cure it. Or cure it incidentally like with Heal.

As a healer I can PEA/PEB to buff group with my Domain Turn Undead group buff - heal the group and buff at the same time. As a non-healer (without those enhancements) I have to cast original Turn Undead - long cast time (lower my dps/stop what I'm doing) to do the same thing? While not Cleric specific, Divine Crusader's Confront Any Foe doesn't activate it.

For Cleric, baking the +1 +1 crit profile in War domain's Holy Sword simply makes it a must pick for dps in order to be competitive. It would be nice if I actually got to choose between Animal for charge or Destruction for Improved Destruction or War for xyz. Exception if you are Vistani/Inqui or some kind of splash where you get the competence bonus elsewhere.

[Chilldude]

Clerics and FVS are so feat starved (traditional, not stuff like domains etc) that if you want to be a good healer and dps (not necessarily at the same time due to gear itemisation), you need to splash to get the metas and fighting style feats.

I think that's the point. If you want to be a good melee there are better classes. If you want to be a good ranged there are better classes. If you want to be a better caster there are better classes. If you want to be good at CC there are better classes. If divine classes were even nearly as good as any other class at melee, ranged, casting, or CC then what would be the point of other classes?

Personally, I never understood "Battle Clerics". 'Hey everyone, just to let you know, I'm a battle cleric. I don't heal.' THEN WHY ARE YOU A CLERIC!? Why aren't you a barbarian, fighter, paladin, rogue, monk, or practically any other class, as nearly every other class is better at melee than cleric? You're a "Battle Cleric" to cover your own backside, heck with everyone else.

Clerics are supposed to be weaker offensively than other classes. Yet, in heroics, clerics are still one of the more powerful classes with slay living, destruction, implosion, and blade barrier... because clerics don't have to worry about saving any SP for healing. I completely understand that in DDO healing is a horrible nightmare, rather than fun and strategic in its own right as in other MMORPGs. I completely understand why people don't want to be healers in DDO, healing is a complete joke! I remember healing Shroud back in the day, you stand back, target the guy with the most HP, and then cast a quickened mass heal whenever hitpoints were starting to get low. I was like, "Is this what healing is like in DDO? Seriously!?"

I really don't think that at this point they can do anything to fix "healing" to make it fun, compelling, and worth a full time party slot. I think Exalted Angel is about as close as it's going to get. Run around in Light Sorc mode tossing the mass cure SLA strategically every time it comes off CD. Unload with Divine Wrath every time it comes off CD in the place that will do the most good and damage. In other MMORPGs healing is not only a fun, exciting, and challenging pursuit, it's an art form. Good healers make or break challenging content in other MMORPGs. Not only are there dozens of completely different healing abilities that are used in completely different ways, you have to manage your spell points in order to not run out. In DDO, it's just a bald faced fact that it is absolutely impossible to balance this game around spell point management anymore. If they were to move to a fun and compelling spell point regeneration system like every other MMORPG on the planet then it might be possible, but this archaic shrine nonsense merely ensures that geared characters with past lives never need worry about SP, because they have to make it at least theoretically possible for newer characters.

Healing in DDO is never going to be fun. Being a healer is never going to be something enough people want to do that you can wait for one to join your group. In DDO there is no healing class, even though there are two classes that were very obviously intended to be healers. So what do you do with them? Make them as powerful as other classes? I don't think so. I think a cleric/fvs that meleed as well as actual melee classes makes those classes irrelevant. I think a cleric/fvs that casts, CCs, or ranges as good as other classes makes those classes irrelevant. I would say that divines are currently too strong, however, I also feel that it is a necessarily evil at this point in order to encourage someone, anyone, to ever play a divine at all.

I say look on the bright side and enjoy all the power divines currently have. Don't compare yourself to other players in the group and feel under powered, do your thing and spread some divine love around while you are at it. Continually scan the party list for low health members of your team and do what you do better than everyone else in the party, return them to full, and go back to business. A cleave and a quickened full meta mass cure SLA is more powerful than 2 cleaves.

It's ironic. Years ago, like a decade ago, the idea of a full timed ranged player was ridiculed mercilessly. Bows were strictly only for when many shot came off CD, then many shot, and back to melee. Players argued that ranged, in and of itself, was a powerful ability because it allowed a player to engage a target without being hit. NO KITING!!!! STOP KITING!!!!! Was the angry reply from the masses. Today, ranged is preferred by many precisely because of the ability to range and kite mobs without being hit. Ranged is a truly powerful ability, as is healing. Just as bows were ridiculed back in the day, HEALBOTS were as well. Someone that joined a party with the intention of healing the party was frowned upon and looked down upon. Today, with reaper, I think you'd have a pretty hard time finding a party that wasn't more than happy to have someone slinging heals around, even if that is all they were going to do. I'm not saying there aren't uber elitist parties that would still frown on a HEALBOT, but you're never going to know about those parties because they are formed in guild or channels.

Healing in DDO might not be fun, but it is powerful, now more than ever. Most players by this point, with the exception of the new folk that just recently joined up... WELCOME ABOARD!!!!... have a reasonable level of self sufficiency. I doubt you really need to go full healbot most of the time, but spreading around some heals is more than appreciated and quite powerful to boot. Do your thing divines. Melee, ranged, caster, CC, and HEALING. If you heal as well as you play you'll be the most powerful character in nearly every group you join.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Personally, I never understood "Battle Clerics". 'Hey everyone, just to let you know, I'm a battle cleric. I don't heal.' THEN WHY ARE YOU A CLERIC!? Why aren't you a barbarian, fighter, paladin, rogue, monk, or practically any other class, as nearly every other class is better at melee than cleric? You're a "Battle Cleric" to cover your own backside, heck with everyone else.

For me, battle cleric means "i'm not good at spot healing, stay close & you'll benefit from AoE heals as i fight in the front line" - i like the approach of mixing melee & magic

[droid327]

For me, battle cleric means "i'm not good at spot healing, stay close & you'll benefit from AoE heals as i fight in the front line" - i like the approach of mixing melee & magic

Battle cleric means "I'm lazy and probably wont bother watching your health bars"

If you're a Cleric with enough class levels, then you have the spells. Its not like you have to do anything to get the spells, you get them all automatically. You dont even have to give up spell slots for them, you get them auto-slotted. And if you're healing yourself, then you have Positive gear. You can heal, you just choose not to

There's zero reason a battle cleric couldnt still heal a party in anything outside high-end endgame raids and R10. It doesnt require anything they dont have. Its just a question of doing more than mashing your deeps buttons.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Battle cleric means "I'm lazy and probably wont bother watching your health bars"

If you're a Cleric with enough class levels, then you have the spells. Its not like you have to do anything to get the spells, you get them all automatically. You dont even have to give up spell slots for them, you get them auto-slotted. And if you're healing yourself, then you have Positive gear. You can heal, you just choose not to

There's zero reason a battle cleric couldnt still heal a party in anything outside high-end endgame raids and R10. It doesnt require anything they dont have. Its just a question of doing more than mashing your deeps buttons.

For some maybe, for me I do try to heal but just don't have great reactions & have trouble keeping track of more then a couple of party members so frontline AoEs are a lot easier as I can fit them into a rotation & rely on muscle memory. As it is, I make a decent enough backup healer most of the time, in great part because of there being less pressure than as the main one.

[zooble]

Battle cleric means "I'm lazy and probably wont bother watching your health bars"

That's funny because mine certainly can and do.

Don't confuse Battle Cleric with a new player, a person that doesn't know how to heal in games or someone who doesn't want to heal. Similarly, anyone with a decent SP bar can heal with cocoon/renewal but does everyone? No. It's got nothing to do with Battle Cleric.

With that said, anything outside of mid-high R, it's a given that people should be self-sufficient and watching their own health bars. A Cleric in the party doesn't mean you can ignore all your survivability hotkeys.

If you're a Cleric with enough class levels, then you have the spells.

As a matter of fact, in EN-R1 quests, my clerics are better off healing with Cocoon/Renewal than with actual Cleric spells. That says something about the state of healing/Cleric spells in this game.

[Question2005]

Battle cleric means "I'm lazy and probably wont bother watching your health bars"

If you're a Cleric with enough class levels, then you have the spells. Its not like you have to do anything to get the spells, you get them all automatically. You dont even have to give up spell slots for them, you get them auto-slotted. And if you're healing yourself, then you have Positive gear. You can heal, you just choose not to

There's zero reason a battle cleric couldnt still heal a party in anything outside high-end endgame raids and R10. It doesnt require anything they dont have. Its just a question of doing more than mashing your deeps buttons.

Because they wont be able to heal anywhere near as effectively as an actual caster. To do that effectively you need metamagic feats and enhancements. Yea, you can cast heals, they just wont be anywhere near as good as heals from a proper caster. Its also quite common to not be able to fit in spellpower items if you are building for melee DPS. Its also problematic to have to stop dpsing to heal in time, especially with lag. Sometimes when you try to cast something, the icons on the hotbar refresh but nothing is actually cast so you have to use the hotkey again, or a few more times. That can get someone killed.

The biggest issue though? To melee in epics you need EDF. Without that, you wont have the HP to survive effectively. Which means your heals are reduced to touch range, which means your party is going to run out of range constantly before you can heal them.

Battle cleric wont be good either till war priest/soul gets a massive buff the way paladin did. If you want a proper divine melee tree, look at what druid gets, they even get a defensive stance whereas war priest/soul doesnt which is critical for survivability.

Right now the only viable "battle cleric" build is 6 levels of silvanus for the ridiculously OP mauls and then druid + fighter or barb levels. You can try to do cleric + fighter levels to be a "battle cleric", but its just going to be vastly inferior to the regular druid silvanus mauls build.