So why do Alchies get to use Epic Defensive fighting?

[Kaboom2112]

I'm just curious, why do Alchies get to benefit from this when other casters can't?

[Reztroll]

I'm just curious, why do Alchies get to benefit from this when other casters can't?

Cause the system thinks they are throwing bottles instead of casting spells.

[Deathrobot]

Fyi u can do the same with meteor swarm and acid well so dont cry only about alchemists.

[Carpone]

Imagine players using Acid Well.

[Kaboom2112]

Cause the system thinks they are throwing bottles instead of casting spells.

So bug or feature?

[Carpone]

So bug or feature?

It's a feature until the devs decide it's no longer a feature.

[Aelonwy]

It's a feature until the devs decide it's no longer a feature.

Uh huh.

[Kaboom2112]

It's a feature until the devs decide it's no longer a feature.

That is a fantastic answer.

[Valerianus]

because EDF should have never existed in the first place, it's a **** of a mess, worst idea ever. no wonder that a convoluted nonsense mess is backfiring as a convoluted nonsense mess is supposed to do btw.

[Monkey_Archer]

because EDF should have never existed in the first place, it's a **** of a mess, worst idea ever. no wonder that a convoluted nonsense mess is backfiring as a convoluted nonsense mess is supposed to do btw.

Something approximating EDF needs to exist though, even if it is a clunky mess. Flat HP bonuses and constitution power creep essentially made the base class Hit Dice worthless. When flat damage bonuses outpaced base weapon damage they added +[W] dice, and the same could have been done for class Hit Dice. It wouldn't completely solve the issue that EDF was intended to address, but would be less clunky.

[Valerianus]

Something approximating EDF needs to exist though, even if it is a clunky mess. Flat HP bonuses and constitution power creep essentially made the base class Hit Dice worthless. When flat damage bonuses outpaced base weapon damage they added +[W] dice, and the same could have been done for class Hit Dice. It wouldn't completely solve the issue that EDF was intended to address, but would be less clunky.

yes. want to give melee builds more hp? then give melee builds more hp. leverage on class\destiny\feat. no, they went let's cripple class features (e.g. ranger\pala heals) and melee healing capability\group play in general with a % bonus that help you the less if you need the help more (new player\ungeared\1st lifer\no tomes etc etc...). what a nonsense.

[Tyrande]

Sounds like a bug.

I think its one of the worst things ever got developed.

If they want to give tanks more HP, then give people using shields and a melee weapon more HP....

[CSQ]

I mean, alchemists don't get armor, spells that work as expected, buffs that work on allies, or HP. They have to have something, right?

Just kidding, mostly, but Alchemist is one of the most mixed message classes I've played- they're actually decent casters, but potions being unreliable and their lack of utility feats just make me feel like they're artificers with better spells but more suck in terms of actually being fun to play. No defensive abilities and janky spellcasting is the nail in the coffin for them in my opinion. I enjoy the damage pots, but if I didn't have past lives to give me some AC and HP I would melt in a moment- still do sometimes, and even when not on Reaper. Considering that major spells, like Curative Admixture: Heal, are just straight up broken and don't work properly, alchemist is in a bad place- not because of how they look on paper, but because of the fact that they are fundamentally broken between sucky mechanics (potion throwing and all the issues with hit detection, arcs, and delays unless you spend 5sp per non-SLA to make it not suck) and just broken spells that don't work or hit reliably (like Spill the Bad Stuff, which while not a great spell to begin with because of random damage types is made even worse by having a cone that doesn't hit detect anything half the time unless you do a jump shot).

[aGarde]

I'm fine with Alc getting it. Instead of throwing knives, they're throwing bottles.

Alcs are a jack of all trades type of class, but the dynamics of the bottle throwing means they aren't really reliable for healing. They play like a slow casting Sorc. I think bombadier is the only viable option at really high reapers tho. Still, they'll always be able to spot heal, just slow.

They are more difficult to play, imo, and if they're the only healer in the group, the group needs to be cognizant of the bottle dynamics. And that, imo again, is the biggest issue aside from the slow throw dynamics vs fast casting. Most players just run helter skelter all over the place and never consider group dynamics. Having played this role as an alchemist and caster healer, I can attest to the frustration of playing that class.

For me, I'm fine with how the alchemist plays and wouldn't change anything, aside from cones shooting out of the feet and not hitting anything. To play it well is more of a challenge than playing a sorc well. It's great at certain things, and not so great at others.

[Dragavon]

worst idea ever.

Not that I do not agree that EDF was a bad solution to a not existing problem, but the worst idea ever in DDO has to be dungeon alert and the way that was implemented.

[Tyrande]

I'm fine with Alc getting it. [...]
They are more difficult to play, imo, and if they're the only healer in the group, the group needs to be cognizant of the bottle dynamics. And that, imo again, is the biggest issue aside from the slow throw dynamics vs fast casting. Most players just run [...]

People need to stand still for alchemist bottle heals. They missed the bottle, too bad, they die.

[aGarde]

People need to stand still for alchemist bottle heals. They missed the bottle, too bad, they die.

Not quite. The bottle follows them, and the bottle flying animation is kinda cool. As the player moves the bottle will curve and even go partially around corners. I like the class just for those animations.

The issue is that the bottle will hit objects between you and the target. Other mobs, other players, a rock/column, grass, a dropped shoe, etc... And the player can be in LOS when you toss, and move to a position where the bottle is blocked. It really requires the group, not just the caster, to be aware of positioning. Number one issue for me is the player. At 1/2 life, runs off, bottle misses, they engage in next fight, die.

[Question2005]

I'm fine with Alc getting it. Instead of throwing knives, they're throwing bottles.

Except that anyone throwing knives wouldnt use EDF, because their doubleshot and ranged power would drop to zero.

Spellpower is not affected by EDF because EK needs it to work, and the idea is that the touch range restriction on a "squishy" caster is a big enough penalty. "Squishy" being relatively speaking because any caster can get tons of PRR, AC and HP from stacking past lives.

Take the touch range restriction away and what do you have? A free HP buff for casters.

[Theolin]

Not quite. The bottle follows them, and the bottle flying animation is kinda cool. As the player moves the bottle will curve and even go partially around corners. I like the class just for those animations.

The issue is that the bottle will hit objects between you and the target. Other mobs, other players, a rock/column, grass, a dropped shoe, etc... And the player can be in LOS when you toss, and move to a position where the bottle is blocked. It really requires the group, not just the caster, to be aware of positioning. Number one issue for me is the player. At 1/2 life, runs off, bottle misses, they engage in next fight, die.

You forgot tables, chairs, dust motes, light beams, & air particles .......

[SpartanKiller13]

yes. want to give melee builds more hp? then give melee builds more hp. leverage on class\destiny\feat. no, they went let's cripple class features (e.g. ranger\pala heals) and melee healing capability\group play in general with a % bonus that help you the less if you need the help more (new player\ungeared\1st lifer\no tomes etc etc...). what a nonsense.

Just bumping class HP a lot would go a long way probably (or have the bump freely hit at 21, like EDF does). You'd still get outliers like that one dude on a bow Paladin, but it would balance out things a bit more. And add a drawback to PM THF builds, which I think are hilariously OP (speaking as someone who loves them).

Sounds like a bug.

I think its one of the worst things ever got developed.

If they want to give tanks more HP, then give people using shields and a melee weapon more HP....

There's a lot of precedent for spells that throw physical things ignoring EDF; like Tsunami & Meteor Swarm. So maybe it is WAI?

I'm with you about EDF lol. Especially since it doesn't stack with Fighter/Paladin stance bonuses, so it actively discourages you from using those.

FWIW my tank doesn't use EDF just so I can throw heals & rezzes. How that makes sense IDK.