Throwing Vile Chemist help wanted

[aurric4]

Howdy everybody.

I'm pretty new to the game, but I've been enjoying it and I'm glad I got into the game when the large free quest pack was given out. Regardless, I'm still pretty new and I wanted to get some input on my 2nd character as it is drastically different from a tanky druid character.

Currently I was looking at going Vile chemist with Vistani knife fighter for a ranged hybrid of smashing vials and stacking poison. I do however want to add in some rogue ( I don't know if this is a good choice or not) because having a trapper is a good idea. However, are you required to go deep into mechanic to make that viable for end game? How many levels of rogue is perfect, 2,4?

Some notes:

I just unlocked 32 point builds (yay), but I obviously I have no tomes. I do have the vistani knife fighter enhancement tree.


I'm honestly looking for a general guide that could help a newer player enjoy the alchemist class.

[Aganthor]

Hello!

I am by no mean an expert builder, but this is what I came up with. Hope this helps.

Character name: 
Classes: 20 Alchemist, 10 Epic
Race: Halfling· · · · · · ·Alignment: Neutral

· · ·Start Tome Final
Str:· · ·8· · 0 · ·10 · · ·HP:· · · · 317 · · ·AC:· · 21
Dex:· · 18· · 2 · ·23 · · ·PRR: · · · ·32
Con:· · 12· · 0 · ·14 · · ·MRR: · · · ·22 · · ·+Healing Amp:· · ·3
Int:· · 18· · 0 · ·30 · · ·Dodge: · ·5/29 · · ·-Healing Amp:· · ·3
Wis:· · ·8· · 0 · ·10 · · ·Fort:· · · ·0% · · ·Repair Amp:· · · ·0
Cha:· · ·8· · 0 · ·10 · · ·SR:· · · · · 0 · · ·BAB: · · · · · · 20
DR: 
Immunities: Natural Poison, Natural Poison, Supernatural Poison, Fear, Level Drain, Magic Missiles

Special Feats
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vistani Knife Fighter Tree


Saves:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fortitude:· · · · ·20
· vs Poison:· · · ·22
· vs Disease: · · ·22
Will: · · · · · · ·25
· vs Enchantment: ·25
· vs Illusion:· · ·25
· vs Fear:· · · · ·27
· vs Curse: · · · ·25
Reflex: · · · · · ·33
· vs Traps: · · · ·33
· vs Spell: · · · ·33
· vs Magic: · · · ·33
Marked with a * is no fail on a 1 if required DC met

Class and Feat Selection
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level Class · · · · · ·Feats
1 · · Alchemist(1)· · ·Standard: Point Blank Shot
2 · · Alchemist(2)· · ·
3 · · Alchemist(3)· · ·Standard: Precise Shot
4 · · Alchemist(4)· · ·Alchemist Bonus: Battalion Brew
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
5 · · Alchemist(5)· · ·
6 · · Alchemist(6)· · ·Standard: Precision
7 · · Alchemist(7)· · ·
8 · · Alchemist(8)· · ·Alchemist Bonus: Rapid Shot
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Dexterity: +1 Level up
9 · · Alchemist(9)· · ·Standard: Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise
10· · Alchemist(10) · ·
11· · Alchemist(11) · ·
12· · Alchemist(12) · ·Standard: Improved Critical: Thrown Weapons
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Alchemist Bonus: Liquid Luck
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
13· · Alchemist(13) · ·
14· · Alchemist(14) · ·
15· · Alchemist(15) · ·Standard: Improved Precise Shot
16· · Alchemist(16) · ·Alchemist Bonus: Tonic of Toxins
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
17· · Alchemist(17) · ·
18· · Alchemist(18) · ·Standard: Weapon Focus: Thrown Weapons
19· · Alchemist(19) · ·
20· · Alchemist(20) · ·Alchemist Bonus: Insightful Courage
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
21· · Epic(1) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Overwhelming Critical
22· · Epic(2) · · · · ·
23· · Epic(3) · · · · ·
24· · Epic(4) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Combat Archery
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
25· · Epic(5) · · · · ·
26· · Epic(6) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Toughness
27· · Epic(7) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Blinding Speed
28· · Epic(8) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Doubleshot
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Intelligence: +1 Level up
29· · Epic(9) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Holy Strike
30· · Epic(10)· · · · ·Epic Feat: Epic Damage Reduction
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Legendary: Scion of the Astral Plane

Enhancements: 80 APs
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apothecary - Points spent: 11
 1 Core ·(1) Determination
 2 Tier1 (1) Curative Admixture: Cure or Inflict Light Wounds: Curative Admixture: Cure Light Wounds
 3 Tier1 (1) Curative Admixture: Cure or Inflict Light Wounds: Curative Admixture: Cure Light Wounds
 4 Tier1 (1) Curative Admixture: Cure or Inflict Light Wounds: Curative Admixture: Cure Light Wounds
 5 Tier1 (2) Spell Critical Chance: Positive & Negative I
 6 Core ·(1) Alchemical Shield
 7 Tier2 (2) Spell Critical Chance: Positive & Negative II
 8 Tier2 (1) Hale & Hearty
 9 Core ·(1) Curative Admixture: Cure Serious Wounds
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vile Chemist - Points spent: 26
 1 Core ·(1) Poisoner
 2 Tier1 (2) Deadly Poison I
 3 Tier1 (1) Alchemical Accuracy
 4 Tier1 (1) Alchemical Accuracy
 5 Tier1 (1) Alchemical Accuracy
 6 Core ·(1) Poisoned Coating
 7 Tier2 (1) Poisoned Attack: Poisoned Shot
 8 Tier2 (1) Poisoned Attack: Poisoned Shot
 9 Tier2 (1) Poisoned Attack: Poisoned Shot
10 Tier2 (2) Deadly Poison II
11 Tier3 (2) Deadly Poison III
12 Tier3 (1) SLA: Wave of Poison
13 Tier3 (1) SLA: Wave of Poison
14 Core ·(1) Hidden Blades
15 Tier3 (1) SLA: Wave of Poison
16 Tier3 (2) Ability I: +1 Intelligence
17 Tier4 (2) Deadly Poison IV
18 Core ·(1) More Hidden Blades
19 Tier4 (2) Ability II: +1 Intelligence
20 Tier2 (1) Stone of the Subliminal
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vistani Knife Fighter - Points spent: 43
 1 Core ·(1) Knife Expertise
 2 Tier1 (1) Vistani Knife Training I
 3 Tier1 (1) Undead Hunter
 4 Tier1 (2) Mist Stalker I
 5 Tier1 (2) Rapid Attack
 6 Core ·(1) Knife Juggler
 7 Tier2 (1) Weapon Versatility
 8 Tier2 (1) Haste Boost
 9 Tier2 (1) Haste Boost
10 Tier2 (1) Haste Boost
11 Core ·(1) Quick Reflexes
12 Tier2 (2) Bleeding Cuts
13 Tier2 (2) Vistani Knife Training II
14 Tier2 (2) Mist Stalker II
15 Tier3 (2) Mist Stalker III
16 Tier3 (2) Deadly Blades
17 Tier3 (2) Gifted I: +1 Intelligence
18 Tier4 (2) Gifted II: +1 Intelligence
19 Core ·(1) One With Blades
20 Tier3 (2) Vistani Knife Training III
21 Tier4 (2) Vistani Knife Training IV
22 Tier4 (1) Celerity
23 Tier4 (2) Mist Stalker IV
24 Tier5 (2) Vendetta
25 Tier5 (2) Blessed Blades
26 Core ·(1) Vistani Fortune
27 Core ·(1) Knife Master
28 Tier5 (2) Whirling Blades
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[aurric4]

Hello!

I am by no mean an expert builder, but this is what I came up with. Hope this helps.

Thanks man! Are there benefits to going 20 for the capstone in alchemist? If so, what is it? If that is the case, could I do a level into rogue for some trapping?
Or am I trying to spread myself too thin here. I could still take point blank shot at level 1.

[unbongwah]

Do you care more about heroic leveling or epic performance? Thrower builds start low and end high in terms of DPS. A lot of people will advise you to level as, say, an Inquisitive thru heroics then respec in epics into a thrower build. Remember that light and heavy crossbows are also simple weapons so they will benefit from Vile Chemist as well. Or if you do go all-thrower all the way, a bard 3 splash for Swashbuckler bonuses will help early on, but compromise your DPS at higher levels since its caps how many Alchemist levels you can have.

So let's stick with your original plan: Alchemist 18 / rogue 2 dagger thrower.

Drow VC Thrower
18/2 Alchemist/Rogue
True Neutral Drow


Level Order

1. Rogue           6. Alchemist      11. Alchemist      16. Alchemist
2. Alchemist       7. Alchemist      12. Rogue          17. Alchemist
3. Alchemist       8. Alchemist      13. Alchemist      18. Alchemist
4. Alchemist       9. Alchemist      14. Alchemist      19. Alchemist
5. Alchemist      10. Alchemist      15. Alchemist      20. Alchemist


Stats
               28pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength         8                4: INT
Dexterity       18       +2       8: INT
Constitution    12               12: INT
Intelligence    18               16: INT
Wisdom           8               20: INT
Charisma        12               24: DEX
                                 28: INT

Skills
          R  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  R  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Concent   2  3  1  1  1  1  1     2     2     1  2  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spellcr   2  1  3  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1     2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Disable   4        1  1  1  1  2  1  2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Search    4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spot      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
UMD       4                               10        1  2  2  2  1  1  23
Open Lo   4                                                            4
Balance   4                                                            4
Jump      4                                                            4
Swim      4                                                            4
Tumble    4                                                            4
Haggle    4                                                            4
Heal                                                            1  1   2
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         48  6  6  6  6  6  6  7  7  7  7 13  7  7  7  8  8  8  8  8


Feats

 1        : Simple Thrown Expertise
 3        : Point Blank Shot
 5 Alchemi: Battalion Brew
 6        : Precise Shot
 9        : Precision
 9 Alchemi: Rapid Shot OR Liquid Courage
12        : Improved Critical: Thrown
14 Alchemi: Maximize Spell
15        : Spell Focus: Conjuration
18        : Improved Precise Shot
18 Alchemi: Empower Spell OR Alchemical Studies: Orchidium
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Combat Archery
26 Destiny: Holy Strike OR Pierce Damage Reduction: Silver
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction OR Intensify Spell
28 Destiny: Doubleshot
29 Destiny: Arcane Warrior OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Epic Reflexes OR Watchful Eye
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea


Enhancements (80 AP)

Vistani Knife Fighter (41 AP)
Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Quick Reflexes, One With Blades, Vistani Fortune, Blade Master
Undead Hunter, Mist Stalker, Acrobatic III, Rapid Slash
Vistani Knife Training II, Bleeding Cuts, Mist Stalker II, Weapon Versatility, Haste Boost III
Vistani Knife Training III, Fan of Knives, Mist Stalker III, Deadly Blades, Intelligence
Vistani Knife Training IV, Celerity, Mist Stalker IV, Intelligence

Vile Chemist (38 AP)
Poisoner, Poisoned Coating, Hidden Blades, More Hidden Blades, Brushed Aside
Spell Like Ability: Stiffen Skin II, Deadly Poison I
Deadly Poison II, Poisoned Shot III, Stone of the Subliminal
Spell Like Ability: Wave of Poison III, Deadly Poison III, Toxic Augmentation, Intelligence
Deadly Poison IV, Venom Affinity III, Unbreakable Ambition
Spell Like Ability: Greater Wave of Poison, Fatal Poison, Contaminated Strikes, Chemical Weapon, Sapping Ambition

Mechanic (1 AP)
Arbalester

Leveling Guide
Mec0 Arbalester; Vis0 Knife Expertise; Vis1 Rapid Slash
Vis1 Mist Stalker; VCh0 Poisoner; VCh1 Spell Like Ability: Stiffen Skin I
Vis0 Knife Juggler; VCh1 Deadly Poison I; VCh1 Spell Like Ability: Stiffen Skin II
VCh0 Poisoned Coating; VCh2 Stone of the Subliminal; Vis2 Vistani Knife Training II
Vis2 Bleeding Cuts; VCh2 Deadly Poison II
Vis0 Quick Reflexes; VCh2 Poisoned Shot I; VCh3 Toxic Augmentation
VCh0 Hidden Blades; Dro0 Spell Resistance; Dro1 Arcane Fluidity I, II
Vis1 Undead Hunter; Vis2 Haste Boost I, II, III
Vis3 Fan of Knives; Vis3 Deadly Blades
Vis2 Weapon Versatility; Vis4 Celerity; VCh3 Deadly Poison III
VCh2 Poisoned Shot II, III; VCh3 Intelligence
Vis0 One With Blades; VCh3 Spell Like Ability: Wave of Poison I, II, III
VCh4 Unbreakable Ambition; VCh4 Deadly Poison IV
VCh0 More Hidden Blades; VCh4 Venom Affinity I, II, III
VCh5 Chemical Weapon; VCh5 Sapping Ambition; VCh5 Spell Like Ability: Greater Wave of Poison
VCh5 Contaminated Strikes; Vis2 Mist Stalker II
Vis3 Mist Stalker III; Vis4 Mist Stalker IV
Vis3 Vistani Knife Training III; Vis0 Vistani Fortune; Vis4 Vistani Knife Training IV
Vis3 Intelligence; Vis4 Intelligence
Reset Drow
Vistani Knife Fighter: Blade Master
Acrobatic III

Vile Chemist: Brushed Aside
(none)
(none)
(none)
(none)
Fatal Poison

A few comments:

• The +2 DEX tome can come from Favor. You don't need it until level 18 for IPS, so plenty of time to farm Favor.
• Battalion Brew might seem like a wasted feat if you have Harper, until you realize not spending APs on Strategic Combat means you have enough APs for tier-5 Vile Chemist + VKF capstone. AFAIK the attack speed bonuses from VKF cores and VC Chemical Weapon will stack. But even if they don't, VKF capstone still gives +20 Ranged Power so you'll want it anyway.
• This build went all-in on thrower DPS. If you wanted something more balanced, you could do, say, 31 VKF / 11 Apothecary / 38 Vile Chemist to add two Curative SLAs.
• Alchemists get Melt Lock as a level 3 spell so I only invest a few points into Open Lock to help grab all the shinies at low levels.
• There seems to be a hard cap on how fast the attack animations will play. So you might want to take Rapid Shot during heroics then swap it out when you've maxed out throwing speed in epics.
• Rogue / Alchemist gets light armor proficiency but Alchemists have Arcane Spell Failure, so one advantage to drow is Arcane Fluidity. 2 ranks is -10% ASF, enough for leather armor; bump it to 3 if you use chain armor (15% ASF). At higher levels you can use a Sapphire of Spell Agility instead, which is what my final AP split presumes.

Want to level as Inquisitive instead? That's actually really simple: take Rapid Reload and Improved Critical:Ranged instead of Simple Thrown Expertise and IC:Thrown; and put your APs into Inquisitive instead of VKF, of course. You're now a dual-shooter Alchemist, although Artificer splash is arguably better than rogue if you want a full-time "Alquisitive" - free Rapid Reload, equip a Runearm instead of an orb, and still grab Evasion by taking Liquid Luck as your Alchemist 12 feat.

[ValariusK]

You know, if you want trapping, you only need 1 level of rogue or artificer on an alchemists, you can get evasion easily already as an alchemist. So that opens the possibility of an 18/1/1 build with 1 level of something else (or you could get 2 levels of arty and have rune arms).