Bear form natural fighting gets THF. Wolf gets what?

[darkniteyogi]

Just noticed the changes now to natural fighting.

What is the reasoning behind giving Bear 3 THF feats on top of 12% extra doublestrike, PRR, and Melee power, and giving Wolf form nothing?

[elvesunited]

Just noticed the changes now to natural fighting.

What is the reasoning behind giving Bear 3 THF feats on top of 12% extra doublestrike, PRR, and Melee power, and giving Wolf form nothing?

Wolfs get faster single target attack speed ( not counting multi-target special attacks ) and movement speed bonuses
Bears get THF feat effects with natural fighting.

For a while wolves completely dominated bears. Only recently have bears become much more competitive.

[unbongwah]

Wolves have higher attack speed while bears have higher damage mod and Strikethrough. So the difference between the two forms is now akin to SWF vs THF.

Considering I've waited 8 years for bears to be something more than a gimpy flavor tank, I'm not too upset about wolves being (temporarily) overshadowed by their ursine brethren.

[Loromir]

I find it hilarious that someone is complaining about Melee wolf builds being slighted.

[SouCarioca]

Wolves have higher attack speed while bears have higher damage mod and Strikethrough. So the difference between the two forms is now akin to SWF vs THF.

Considering I've waited 8 years for bears to be something more than a gimpy flavor tank, I'm not too upset about wolves being (temporarily) overshadowed by their ursine brethren.

Do Dwarven Axes get the strikethrough benefits of THF feat in bear form?

[unbongwah]

Do Dwarven Axes get the strikethrough benefits of THF feat in bear form?

Yes and no: the THF feats don't apply directly to bear form, however the Strikethrough enhancements which require THF feats (e.g., Mad Munitions) will work in bear form. Also the dwarven racial bonuses to Strikethrough carry over too.

However, unlike conventional S&B builds with THF feat chain, dwarven axes don't get higher damage modifier from Natural Fighting. Between that and the different attack speed bonuses (+10% from Nature's Protector vs +20% from Vanguard), a S&B pure bear build will lag behind the DPS of a S&B pure fighter or paladin. Of course, a pure druid has a lot more spells to play with than a paladin does...

Test results here.

[Coffey]

Yes and no: the THF feats don't apply directly to bear form, however the Strikethrough enhancements which require THF feats (e.g., Mad Munitions) will work in bear form. Also the dwarven racial bonuses to Strikethrough carry over too.

However, unlike conventional S&B builds with THF feat chain, dwarven axes don't get higher damage modifier from Natural Fighting. Between that and the different attack speed bonuses (+10% from Nature's Protector vs +20% from Vanguard), a S&B pure bear build will lag behind the DPS of a S&B pure fighter or paladin. Of course, a pure druid has a lot more spells to play with than a paladin does...

Test results here.

ST enhancements are only unlocked by the first THF feat and the rest of the THF feat line is unnescessary.

Would you be locked into the target weapons of the enhancements to gain the ST benefit from Dwarf or Mad Munitions in Bear form?

[unbongwah]

ST enhancements are only unlocked by the first THF feat and the rest of the THF feat line is unnescessary.

If you're settling for just Angry Arms, sure. But if you're going all the way for Mad Munitions + Focus Wide, you need GTHF too.

[Coffey]

If you're settling for just Angry Arms, sure. But if you're going all the way for Mad Munitions + Focus Wide, you need GTHF too.

Apologies i mixed up Mad Munitions with Battle Engineer haha!

Anyways not surprised they didnt buff Wolf Natural Fighting at all. Its Bears time to shine

[SouCarioca]

Yes and no: the THF feats don't apply directly to bear form, however the Strikethrough enhancements which require THF feats (e.g., Mad Munitions) will work in bear form. Also the dwarven racial bonuses to Strikethrough carry over too.

However, unlike conventional S&B builds with THF feat chain, dwarven axes don't get higher damage modifier from Natural Fighting. Between that and the different attack speed bonuses (+10% from Nature's Protector vs +20% from Vanguard), a S&B pure bear build will lag behind the DPS of a S&B pure fighter or paladin. Of course, a pure druid has a lot more spells to play with than a paladin does...

Test results here.

Ok, so for 1st life builds such as HC, THF seems a no go. But for the DPS remark, Druid bear form does work well with other classes such as Barbarian. Aside from the rages themselves, you can add a Cracking Attack with due enhancements so you have a non-stop (if you score a hit) +2W and AC damage, or the Supreme Cleave. Wouldn't this balance the DPS out some?

[unbongwah]

I like the Nature's Protector capstone: an extra +5% attack speed (+10% total) and reduced spell cooldown penalty (2x -> 1.5x). But a barbarian 2 splash adds a lot too: Fast Movement, martial weapons proficiency, barb Rage enhancements which stack with Rage of the Beast, and tier-2 enhancements like Blood Tribute and Angry Arms (+20% Strikethrough if you take THF feat pre-req). So I think it depends on whether easier heroic leveling vs better epic DPS is more important to you. Gilga's 18/2 build seems like a good compromise given that it's filling multiple roles.

Things get more complicated if you go with a heavily multiclassed build including, well, Gilga's 11/6/3 split, which is a bear in name and form only. It's really a 2H melee DPS build which happens to splash druid 3 because of the way Natural Fighting will stack with Frenzied Berserker's enhancements (Angry Arms + Mad Munitions + Focus Wide).

[Zretch]

Wolfs get faster single target attack speed ( not counting multi-target special attacks ) and movement speed bonuses
Bears get THF feat effects with natural fighting.

For a while wolves completely dominated bears. Only recently have bears become much more competitive.

Pure bear also receives no crit bonuses to range or damage multi. Wolves receive a crit bonus to damage multi.

[unbongwah]

Pure bear also receives no crit bonuses to range or damage multi. Wolves receive a crit bonus to damage multi.

If you're talking about A True Hunter from Nature's Warrior, that works in either animal form.

[Zretch]

If you're talking about A True Hunter from Nature's Warrior, that works in either animal form.

Yep, but it is in the wolf tree. If you're going pure you will probably go stronger into Wolf, but if you're splashing barbarian or if you're pulling from falconry, then having to put 21 points into Warrior may force tradeoffs like longer rages, more rages, more strength while raged, more strikethrough, etc that you can pick up from Barbarian trees for not much of a level investment.

[ChaosBuddha]

worst part is Perfect Natural Fighting wolf get +15% competence bonus to maximum hit points which don't work with epic defensive fighting but u have to take it for the +5% hp from epic defensive fighting......just terrible. wolf is so freaking bad right now mostly because how useless Natural Fighting is on wolf, if u take single weapon fighting u get 30% attack speed anyway and more stats dmg.