redoing my pally

[Hobgoblin]

so i almost always play casters in epics.... wanting to try melee and i hear good things about paladin

i want to be able to contribute and possibly solo once i get sharn gear.....


so here goes

Character name:
Classes: 20 Paladin, 10 Epic
Race: Human · · · · · · · ·Alignment: Lawful Good

· · ·Start Tome Final
Str:· · 18· · 8 · ·40 · · ·HP:· · · ·1019 · · ·AC:· · 39
Dex:· · ·8· · 8 · ·19 · · ·PRR: · · · ·38
Con:· · 16· · 8 · ·28 · · ·MRR: · · · · 9 · · ·+Healing Amp:· ·150
Int:· · ·8· · 8 · ·20 · · ·Dodge: · ·1/25 · · ·-Healing Amp: 4294967236
Wis:· · ·8· · 8 · ·18 · · ·Fort:· · · 10% · · ·Repair Amp:· · · ·0
Cha:· · 16· · 8 · ·34 · · ·SR:· · · · · 0 · · ·BAB: · · · · · · 20
DR:
Immunities: Natural Disease, Magical Disease, Super-Natural Disease, Fear, Energy Drain

Class and Feat Selection
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Level Class · · · · · ·Feats
1 · · Paladin(1)· · · ·Standard: Stunning Blow
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Human Bonus: Two Handed Fighting
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Follower of Faith: Follower of the Sovereign Host
2 · · Paladin(2)· · · ·
3 · · Paladin(3)· · · ·Standard: Completionist
4 · · Paladin(4)· · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
5 · · Paladin(5)· · · ·
6 · · Paladin(6)· · · ·Standard: Improved Two Handed Fighting
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Deity: Unyielding Sovereignty
7 · · Paladin(7)· · · ·
8 · · Paladin(8)· · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
9 · · Paladin(9)· · · ·Standard: Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
10· · Paladin(10) · · ·
11· · Paladin(11) · · ·
12· · Paladin(12) · · ·Standard: Greater Two Handed Fighting
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
13· · Paladin(13) · · ·
14· · Paladin(14) · · ·
15· · Paladin(15) · · ·Standard: Precision
16· · Paladin(16) · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
17· · Paladin(17) · · ·
18· · Paladin(18) · · ·Standard: Empower Healing Spell
19· · Paladin(19) · · ·
20· · Paladin(20) · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
21· · Epic(1) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Overwhelming Critical
22· · Epic(2) · · · · ·
23· · Epic(3) · · · · ·
24· · Epic(4) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Maximize Spell
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
25· · Epic(5) · · · · ·
26· · Epic(6) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27· · Epic(7) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Blinding Speed
28· · Epic(8) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
29· · Epic(9) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Dire Charge
30· · Epic(10)· · · · ·Epic Feat: Epic Damage Reduction
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Legendary: Scion of Arborea

Skills
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill Points· · · 8 ·3· 3 ·3· 3 ·3· 4 ·4· 4 ·4· 4 ·4· 4 ·4· 5 ·5· 5 ·5· 5 ·5
Skill Name· · · ·01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20· Total Buffed
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balance · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 17.0
Bluff · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 28.0
Concentration · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 23.0
Diplomacy · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 2 ·2· 2 ·2· 2 ·3· ·17.0 · 46.0
Disable Device· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 20.0
Haggle· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 26.0
Heal· · · · · · · 4 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· ·23.0 · 41.0
Hide· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 16.0
Intimidate· · · · 4 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· ·23.0 · 51.0
Jump· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 27.0
Listen· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 18.0
Move Silently · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 16.0
Open Lock · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 16.0
Perform · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 26.0
Repair· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 20.0
Search· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 23.0
Spell Craft · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 21.0
Spot· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 21.0
Swim· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 27.0
Tumble· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 0.0 · 16.0
Use Magic Device· · ·½· ½ ·½· ½ ·½· 1 ·1· 1 ·1· ½ ·½· ½ ·½· ½ ·½· ½ ·½· ½ · · ·11.0 · 39.0
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Available Points· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0· 0 ·0
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Enhancements: 80 APs, Racial 7, Universal 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Human - Points spent: 8
1 Core ·(1) Versatility I: Damage Boost
2 Core ·(2) Adaptability: +1 Strength
3 Tier1 (2) Improved Recovery I
4 Tier2 (1) Fighting Style: Great Weapon Aptitude
5 Tier2 (1) Fighting Style: Great Weapon Aptitude
6 Tier2 (1) Fighting Style: Great Weapon Aptitude
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Falconry - Points spent: 8
1 Core ·(1) Summon Falcon: Summon Snow Owl
2 Tier1 (1) Out in Nature
3 Tier1 (1) Out in Nature
4 Tier1 (1) Out in Nature
5 Tier1 (1) Rugged
6 Core ·(2) Ability I: Strength
7 Tier1 (1) Rugged
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacred Defender - Points spent: 31
1 Core ·(1) Holy Bastion
2 Tier1 (1) Improved Sacred Defense I: Resilient Defense
3 Tier1 (1) Improved Sacred Defense I: Resilient Defense
4 Tier1 (1) Improved Sacred Defense I: Resilient Defense
5 Tier1 (1) Extra Lay on Hands
6 Tier1 (1) Extra Lay on Hands
7 Tier1 (1) Extra Lay on Hands
8 Core ·(1) Sacred Defence
9 Tier2 (1) Improved Sacred Defense II: Durable Defense
10 Tier2 (1) Improved Sacred Defense II: Durable Defense
11 Tier2 (1) Improved Sacred Defense II: Durable Defense
12 Tier2 (1) Bulwark Aura
13 Tier2 (1) Bulwark Aura
14 Tier2 (1) Bulwark Aura
15 Tier3 (1) Greater Sacred Defense I: Strong Defense
16 Tier3 (1) Greater Sacred Defense I: Strong Defense
17 Tier3 (1) Greater Sacred Defense I: Strong Defense
18 Tier3 (1) Resistance Aura
19 Tier3 (1) Resistance Aura
20 Tier3 (1) Resistance Aura
21 Tier4 (1) Greater Sacred Defense II: Hardy Defense
22 Tier4 (1) Greater Sacred Defense II: Hardy Defense
23 Tier4 (1) Greater Sacred Defense II: Hardy Defense
24 Tier4 (1) Swift Defense
25 Core ·(1) Divine Righteousness
26 Core ·(1) Redemption
27 Tier3 (2) Ability I: +1 Charisma
28 Tier4 (2) Ability II: +1 Charisma
29 Core ·(1) Glorious Stand
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Knight of the Chalice - Points spent: 41
1 Core ·(1) Slayer of Evil I
2 Tier1 (2) Holy Combatant I
3 Tier1 (1) Improved Second Strikes
4 Tier1 (1) Improved Second Strikes
5 Tier1 (1) Improved Second Strikes
6 Tier2 (1) Divine Might
7 Tier2 (1) Divine Might
8 Tier2 (1) Divine Might
9 Tier2 (2) Adept Combatant
10 Tier2 (1) Critical Mastery
11 Tier2 (1) Critical Mastery
12 Tier2 (1) Critical Mastery
13 Tier3 (1) Divine Sacrifice: Divine Sacrifice
14 Tier3 (2) Holy Combatant II
15 Core ·(1) Courage of Heaven
16 Core ·(1) Slayer of Evil II
17 Tier3 (2) Ability I: +1 Strength
18 Tier2 (2) Exalted Attack: Exalted Cleave
19 Core ·(1) Improved Courage of Heaven
20 Tier4 (2) Ability II: +1 Strength
21 Tier4 (2) Vigor of Life I
22 Tier4 (1) Censure Demons
23 Tier4 (2) Knight's Training
24 Core ·(1) Slayer of Evil III
25 Tier5 (2) Ascendancy
26 Tier5 (1) Censure Outsiders
27 Tier5 (2) Vigor of Life II
28 Tier5 (1) Holy Retribution: Holy Retribution
29 Tier5 (2) Avenging Attack: Avenging Cleave
30 Core ·(1) Champion of Good
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want to make sure i didnt forget any major feats

[Sythe777]

Seems good, I'd recommend trying to rework your feat order to get more utility up-front/earlier. For example, stunning blow probably won't be very useful until you hit ~10ish because most mobs before that are only a few hits to kill. I would also recommend you look at what your gearset will be at end-game because Brightlord offers 30 speed which lets you drop blinding speed at 27. My current feat selection looks like this:

1. Two Handed Fighting
3. Precision
6. Improved Two Handed Fighting
9. Improved Critical: Slashing
12. Greater Two Handed Fighting
15. Stunning Blow
18. Toughness
21. Overwhelming Critical
24. Epic Toughness
26. Perfect Two Handed Fighting.
27. Epic Damage Reduction
28. Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
29. Dire Charge
30. Epic Will
30. Scion of Arborea

Now since you have completionist, you can drop toughness for it and maybe switch the feat order so you get completionist earlier on or even make it as one of your bonus feats as a human. You'd have to drop Epic Toughness down to either regular toughness or find a suitable alternative. Feat-wise, I specced for offense first, defense second, utility/misc third. Toughness is in there because there aren't really any other decent feats at those levels.

If you want to take precision at 3, you need to put 2 points into dex. Otherwise, you can just wait until your tomes catch up at level 11. My stat setup at 1 as a 36pt build is 18/10/18/8/8/8.

I have strayed away from using metamagics as I was told it's not worth the investment, so I can't offer any input there.

[palladin9479]

1. Two Handed Fighting
3. Precision
6. Improved Two Handed Fighting
9. Improved Critical: Slashing
12. Greater Two Handed Fighting
15. Stunning Blow
18. Toughness

Cha isn't a dump stat on paladin and there is absolutely no need to have Con at 16-18 these days, our HP bonus's overpower the difference.

Before Racial Adjustmnets

STR 18
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 16

Int is up to the user, there are several skills that extremely useful but not enough to actively bump it up more then basic.

15 and 18 are the open feat slots, Stunning Blow is largely bleh on Paladin in heroics as everything dies really fast, any utility it did have is replaced at 29 with Dire Charge. Toughness is definitely a wasted feat these days with how little HP it gives.

The feats OP should be looking to swap in is Force of Personality and maybe Quicken or Quickdraw depending on how often their using special abilities. I can see Stunning being tossed in there because there isn't many other options at that point. But seriously take Force of Personality, it turns Wisdom into a dump stat and skyrockets our Will saves.

Heroic Completionist used to be this amazing super powerful feat that everyone tried to take ASAP. With power creep it's relative strength has diminished to a "nice to have" and something that can be tossed on around 18 after all the good stuff has been taken.

[Sythe777]

Cha isn't a dump stat on paladin and there is absolutely no need to have Con at 16-18 these days, our HP bonus's overpower the difference.

Before Racial Adjustmnets

STR 18
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 16

Int is up to the user, there are several skills that extremely useful but not enough to actively bump it up more then basic.

15 and 18 are the open feat slots, Stunning Blow is largely bleh on Paladin in heroics as everything dies really fast, any utility it did have is replaced at 29 with Dire Charge. Toughness is definitely a wasted feat these days with how little HP it gives.

The feats OP should be looking to swap in is Force of Personality and maybe Quicken or Quickdraw depending on how often their using special abilities. I can see Stunning being tossed in there because there isn't many other options at that point. But seriously take Force of Personality, it turns Wisdom into a dump stat and skyrockets our Will saves.

Heroic Completionist used to be this amazing super powerful feat that everyone tried to take ASAP. With power creep it's relative strength has diminished to a "nice to have" and something that can be tossed on around 18 after all the good stuff has been taken.

The way I see it is that you gain a +4 modifier advantage speccing that much into cha. You end up cutting that in half for divine might down to +2. There's not much else that charisma affects other than divine might so I personally prefer the extra hp over +2 damage/DCs.

Stunning Blow IS kinda bleh, but there's not much else and you can strikethrough it.

Force of personality didn't interest me because your will saves should be plenty high enough already by the time you would take it. I took epic will for the no-fail save on 1s (assuming it works, I haven't had any issues).

Quickdraw was something I contemplated on taking instead of toughness but I figured the difference is marginal/not noticeable; additionally, I was recommended to not take it because it was more of a waste than regular toughness.

[Hobgoblin]

re: stunning blow - i only took it as a human bonus feat - i could live without it ez
i thought i took quicken in late epics

same with completionist - nothing else seemed appealing at that level

also - i havnt used smites much are they still worth it? i read that exalted smite was a trap enhancment - if so why?

[SocratesBastardSon]

i havnt used smites much are they still worth it? i read that exalted smite was a trap enhancment - if so why?

I've mentioned this in other posts, but now that Strikethrough works with smites THF Paladins should absolutely be maxing strikethrough while making the most possible use of smites. Smite feels more like a cleave now. It's my Paladin's bread-and-butter special attack.

As for Exalted Smite, I can't speak to that.

[palladin9479]

re: stunning blow - i only took it as a human bonus feat - i could live without it ez
i thought i took quicken in late epics

same with completionist - nothing else seemed appealing at that level

also - i havnt used smites much are they still worth it? i read that exalted smite was a trap enhancment - if so why?

Smites still suck hard, nothing fundamentally changed. It's 6-9 AP for something that won't do anything most of the time you use it and has limited charges while you can spend 1 AP for something else that's almost as good and has infinite use. During the KoTC update we asked them to reduce the AP cost of Exalted to a flat 2 or at least 1 per upgrade and no responce.

Now having said that, there is exactly one really good use for them, Fury of the Wild Adrenaline for spike damage. Adrenaline guarantees a crit threat which in turn guarantees that Exalted done something cool everytime you use you.

The way I see it is that you gain a +4 modifier advantage speccing that much into cha. You end up cutting that in half for divine might down to +2. There's not much else that charisma affects other than divine might so I personally prefer the extra hp over +2 damage/DCs.

Stunning Blow IS kinda bleh, but there's not much else and you can strikethrough it.

Force of personality didn't interest me because your will saves should be plenty high enough already by the time you would take it. I took epic will for the no-fail save on 1s (assuming it works, I haven't had any issues).

Quickdraw was something I contemplated on taking instead of toughness but I figured the difference is marginal/not noticeable; additionally, I was recommended to not take it because it was more of a waste than regular toughness.

CHA powers more then just Divine Might, it's better LoH, more TU and higher saves, especially combined with FoP. CHA is Paladin's second most important stat and the entire reason PDK has a broken build is they can triple stack CHA. If your going to dump CHA then play Barb or Fighter, works much better with them.

And FoP is definitely, beyond a doubt worth it, especially if you are doing anything in reaper or epics. The deadliest status ailments in the game are will based and jacking that up using a stat you already want to pump up is sweet. It would be like if we could use STR for Reflex or Will. Plus it turns Wisdom into a total dump stat, can completely forget it exists leaving only Dex / Reflex as the low save and honestly that's just damage that Paladin can soak anyway.

[SocratesBastardSon]

Smites still suck hard, nothing fundamentally changed. It's 6-9 AP for something that won't do anything most of the time you use it and has limited charges while you can spend 1 AP for something else that's almost as good and has infinite use. During the KoTC update we asked them to reduce the AP cost of Exalted to a flat 2 or at least 1 per upgrade and no responce.

You sure about that? In the past I would have agreed, but for THF with high Strikethrough it's a different ballgame now. Whenever my Paladin using GSword used smite he would affect 3-4 mobs every time. That's an extra 40 pts to each with no crits; with crits, an extra 160 pts to each (his CHA at level 16 was 40, and I believe his GSword crit profile was 17-20/x4). And again, I was responding to a very specific build: PDK, THF/GSword, CHA build that uses KoTC as its primary enhancement line.

If you were just talking about Exalted Smite I don't really have an opinion because I've not tested it. In theory it should be decent, as the CHA bonus applies to base damage, and thus gets increased by the crit multiplier. And if you're going to KoTC t5, well you've already taken the drive through that tier, so, might as well pick it up. OTOH, if you're going Vanguard, then no, I wouldn't think it would be worth the investment.

Still, your point about it being one more irritating clicky vs. always-on damage is something I can't argue against. My guy was a straight Paladin so I had room on the hotbar without being overwhelmed by clicky creep.

Now having said that, there is exactly one really good use for them, Fury of the Wild Adrenaline for spike damage. Adrenaline guarantees a crit threat which in turn guarantees that Exalted done something cool everytime you use you.

Good catch on the Adrenaline-Smite rotation. I hadn't thought of that. Fury Paladin with THF. Hmm...

Fury synergizes with KoTC on a couple of other minor enhancements: on a Vorpal Slayer of Evil III core does 500 damage to Undead, and Censure stun Evil/Chaotic outsiders. With Bloodbath Vorpal range is extended by 1 to 19-20, so along with the other Fury Vorpal goodies, I makes me think maybe I should give it a try.

[palladin9479]

You sure about that? In the past I would have agreed, but for THF with high Strikethrough it's a different ballgame now.

Regular smites are free, meaning no opportunity cost. They are still quite weak for a charge based attack but your not losing anything by having access to them. DPS wise they are a loss because they can't double strike and incur the SLA / Spell pause after use meaning your attack sequence takes longer to resume. Regular attack can double-strike and don't inur the SLA lag making regular smite a big DPS loss once your into late heriocs / epics.

If you were just talking about Exalted Smite I don't really have an opinion because I've not tested it. In theory it should be decent, as the CHA bonus applies to base damage, and thus gets increased by the crit multiplier. And if you're going to KoTC t5, well you've already taken the drive through that tier, so, might as well pick it up. OTOH, if you're going Vanguard, then no, I wouldn't think it would be worth the investment.

Still, your point about it being one more irritating clicky vs. always-on damage is something I can't argue against. My guy was a straight Paladin so I had room on the hotbar without being overwhelmed by clicky creep.

Exalted is stupid expensive and the new KoTC tree has much better things to spend AP on. Right next to Exalted is Divine Sacrifice at only 1 AP for a +1 crit multi on a 3s cooldown with no charges, Lead the Charge is also available.

Paladin's already are AP tight because of how good the 18 core is in Sacred Defender, and how good all the T5 stuff is in KoTC. There are some racial tree's with really nice stuff too so I can't imagine someone justifying spending 9 AP on an ability that's a DPS loss when used. A THF Paladin with a GS will have a 25% critical threat range, 30% if inside Divine Crusader (SoS has higher but that's heroic). Exalted adds +2 to that range for a 40% threat, meaning 60% of the time you expend a smite charge nothing cool happens. If that 60% was much closer to 0% or the Exalted cost was reduced / power increased then it would be worth investing in.

Good catch on the Adrenaline-Smite rotation. I hadn't thought of that. Fury Paladin with THF. Hmm...

Fury synergizes with KoTC on a couple of other minor enhancements: on a Vorpal Slayer of Evil III core does 500 damage to Undead, and Censure stun Evil/Chaotic outsiders. With Bloodbath Vorpal range is extended by 1 to 19-20, so along with the other Fury Vorpal goodies, I makes me think maybe I should give it a try.

I can't take credit it was Tobril's idea. That being said, FoTW is incompatible with Sacred Defender stance so your going to lose quite a bit of defensive power there in exchange for boss beating spike damage. Adrenaline -> Exalted Smite becomes a delete key but that's pretty much all your getting from FoTW.

[SocratesBastardSon]

I see what you're saying; I'm not level 19 on that toon yet so no Glorious Stand. I think I mispoke earlier when I said I was pure Pally; I didn't LR out of the 1 level of Fighter. I've put 8 APs into PDK for Strikethrough bonuses and 4 APs into Kensai's Haste Boost, both of which work great on heroic. It'll be easy enough to rework my enhancements once I reach 19 to try out what you're suggesting.

Lots of food for thought here. Thanks! Looks like I'll be redoing my Pally too.

[Hobgoblin]

so update on this build - crushes in heroics like no ones business

in epics starting to struggle a little bit - level 20 sucked hard. 21 and 22 are ok - will be better once i take 23 and get my citw weaps

[palladin9479]

so update on this build - crushes in heroics like no ones business

in epics starting to struggle a little bit - level 20 sucked hard. 21 and 22 are ok - will be better once i take 23 and get my citw weaps

If your doing THF then there isn't anything your going to get from CiTW that will help you out as your stuck with Great Swords and outside of eSoS there aren't any low epic ones that take sentient gems.. I ended up running a Border Lands GS from 20 to 28 where I switched in my BlackRazor. This is the downside of THF on Paladin, outside of Iconics with Maul or Elf with a ton of Racial RP, there aren't any good epic weapons for a long time. SWF on the other hand has an amazing long sword at 20, another great one at 26 the all the Legendary stuff at 28+.