Welp RIP Sorceror, not like it was as OP as alchemist or anything..

[janave]

And here is the thing I disagree with. You can see the devs trying to create an effective 2 handed casting weapon with the new raid staff (complete fail) and the new random loot. Again doomed to fail. With Wave they finally found what it would take to move from 2 caster sticks to a staff. Then they got rid of it. a 2 handed weapon for casters should offer a strong benefit over an single handed one. Now if they nerfed Wave and replaced it with feats or effects that boost casting with 2 handed weapons that would be fine but they didn't and sorry that is just completely poor design.

Lets see how many people are using staffs for casting after this. 20% crit chance vs other options such as ash swap in or other lgs effect? Now its 5% crit damage vs those and it won't even be close with that choice.

Fully agree, thing is they play a very different ddo than we do, would be time to admit that, and choose who's fun is important in the big picture the provider or the customer?

[A-O]

And here is the thing I disagree with. You can see the devs trying to create an effective 2 handed casting weapon with the new raid staff (complete fail) and the new random loot. Again doomed to fail. With Wave they finally found what it would take to move from 2 caster sticks to a staff. Then they got rid of it. a 2 handed weapon for casters should offer a strong benefit over an single handed one. Now if they nerfed Wave and replaced it with feats or effects that boost casting with 2 handed weapons that would be fine but they didn't and sorry that is just completely poor design. ¨

It's easier to make 2h viable if there isn't a staff already in game that would absolutely break the builds using reflection if e.g. feats were added. Sos was awfully designed moving forward as it was 1. the only weapon that made THF viable for years, and 2. not everyone could get it. Personally I've still never received one (20th reward or not) in over 12 years. I can absolutely see the same happening reflection. And it's pretty disheartening if the only thing making something viable is tied to RNG.

Lets see how many people are using staffs for casting after this. 20% crit chance vs other options such as ash swap in or other lgs effect? Now its 5% crit damage vs those and it won't even be close with that choice.

It's not just 5% crit dmg. It's also 50 stacking spell power and 5 caster levels. It's miles beyond what you'd get from an offhand LGS if you're not soloing. Don't pretend this still isn't by leagues the best weapon for cold casters. If an equivalent existed for fire casters it'd break the game frankly. The only reason it doesn't is because iceberg isn't good enough compared to meteor. But again, that's a cold issue, not a 2h issue.



EDIT: I'm also willing to bet SSG has thought about this in relation to their new craftable (I guess?) items coming from LoB / MA. We'll likely see strong 2hander caster items coming from there. Maybe better, or maybe worse than 2 sticks, but the only way for them to be even remotely viable is to pre-nerf reflection before that release.

[SkyJ89]

I always have mix feeling when a sorcerer joins my party. Before they join, 2hd paladin will do his thing, para archer will do his thing, artificer will do his thing, cleric would blade barrier and do their thing, wizzy will do theirs then when sorcerer join, WHAM! Everyone just holding their weapon and follow the trail of bodies. Before wizzy could finish cast the otto dance floor, dead bodies on the dance floor. But yet somewhere inside me felt relieved. I get free level and exp without the need to do a thing.

[Tilomere]

They stacked, I am down 20% crit chance.

So a bunch of exploiters got nerfed?

[noinfo]

So a bunch of exploiters got nerfed?

You need to punctuate this with a soundburst or maybe an image of kobolds taking damage?

[noinfo]

It's easier to make 2h viable if there isn't a staff already in game that would absolutely break the builds using reflection if e.g. feats were added. Sos was awfully designed moving forward as it was 1. the only weapon that made THF viable for years, and 2. not everyone could get it. Personally I've still never received one (20th reward or not) in over 12 years. I can absolutely see the same happening reflection. And it's pretty disheartening if the only thing making something viable is tied to RNG.

Funny thing was that while it made two handed viable dual khopeshes were better dps. It should not have been the limiting factor in decent 2 handers that was on Turbine.

Oh I probably got your esos, I had several as my guild was running it whenever we were off timer often several times on several toons, most of our guild melee had at least 1. Hard to get but not as rare as people like to make out. But then so many people were off running their TR's and there is the truely woeful RNG (to be fair I had the same issue with tomes)

It's not just 5% crit dmg. It's also 50 stacking spell power and 5 caster levels. It's miles beyond what you'd get from an offhand LGS if you're not soloing. Don't pretend this still isn't by leagues the best weapon for cold casters. If an equivalent existed for fire casters it'd break the game frankly. The only reason it doesn't is because iceberg isn't good enough compared to meteor. But again, that's a cold issue, not a 2h issue.



EDIT: I'm also willing to bet SSG has thought about this in relation to their new craftable (I guess?) items coming from LoB / MA. We'll likely see strong 2hander caster items coming from there. Maybe better, or maybe worse than 2 sticks, but the only way for them to be even remotely viable is to pre-nerf reflection before that release.

Spiral gave that anyway (5 levels) and fire sorcs were able to use it on demand until the patch so not sure on how it broke the game- 1 hander btw. And you are selling the offhand options short if you think they can't make up for it and then some. But time will tell. I will likely use mine for at least a little longer as I really would like to keep using a staff.

If they were going to "fix it with feats/enhancements/abilities" and I am actually a fan of what they did with long swords then following up at that time would be the time to do it. This just smacks of here is our new cold pact warlock that can't make use of wave so lets nerf the **** out of it

As for betting on SSG thinking it through all evidence to date shows little understanding of the issue at all. The random loot approach that they took will not change anything and I no longer hold out any hope at all for a caster staff or addressing the issue. I would love to be wrong but feeling confident I won't be.

[SirValentine]

So a bunch of exploiters got nerfed?

Had the devs clearly stated beforehand that it wasn't supposed to stack? There have been plenty of previous cases in DDO where it was not clear if certain things were WAI or not, and in particular, not clear if certain things should stack or not. When it's not clear, I'm pretty inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are not cheaters.

Compare with the currently-existing filigree bug that multiple people have bragged about taking advantage of, and even advised others to use, here on the forums, when devs clearly stated in Release Notes that it was not intended to work that way. Those people, who had to go out of their way to do something that's not supposed to work, are dirty cheating exploiters.

People who were simply using Wave, with no clear statement on whether it should stack or not? Not so much.

(None of this is a comment on whether Wave should have been nerfed or not. Just a disagreement with characterizing anyone who used Wave as an exploiter.)

[Xgya]

People who were simply using Wave, with no clear statement on whether it should stack or not? Not so much.

They could have simply stated 'the bonus to critical chance is now properly typed as Exceptional', losing 15% then and there because it couldn't stack with the Sharn caster armors.
Default rules, it shouldn't stack - they're the same bonus type.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

and the new random loot. Again doomed to fail.

Radom loot is important in low levels, that's why you wrote "fail" I assume. Another proof that people only think about high level and end game.

[SirValentine]

They could have simply stated 'the bonus to critical chance is now properly typed as Exceptional', losing 15% then and there because it couldn't stack with the Sharn caster armors.

And yet, they did not say or do that.

Default rules, it shouldn't stack - they're the same bonus type.

You make that sound so simple, but in DDO, it isn't. Bonuses of the same bonus type to the exact same thing usually aren't supposed to stack. But this was the "same type" to two (related but) different things; hence the reason it was/is unclear. DDO's record on such is inconsistent at best. So perhaps, perhaps not. What do we really know? It was a raid-level weapon that took a lot of resources to upgrade, and it actually stacked in practice. The devs haven't said that stacking was a bug. Maybe it was a bug. I'm not claiming it was clearly WAI; I'm saying it was not clear. Even if they were to clarify now that it was a bug, it wasn't clear before. Calling people exploiters over that is misplaced.

[Xgya]

And yet, they did not say or do that.



You make that sound so simple, but in DDO, it isn't. Bonuses of the same bonus type to the exact same thing usually aren't supposed to stack. But this was the "same type" to two (related but) different things; hence the reason it was/is unclear. DDO's record on such is inconsistent at best. So perhaps, perhaps not. What do we really know? It was a raid-level weapon that took a lot of resources to upgrade, and it actually stacked in practice. The devs haven't said that stacking was a bug. Maybe it was a bug. I'm not claiming it was clearly WAI; I'm saying it was not clear. Even if they were to clarify now that it was a bug, it wasn't clear before. Calling people exploiters over that is misplaced.

Equipment bonuses to Universal Spell Lore never stacked with equipment bonuses to specific Spell Lore. Exceptional Spell Lore shouldn't be treated any differently.

I agree the term 'exploit' is a bit of a misnomer. People that used it were in the same category as people that used the unnerfed Inquisitives. Not an exploit, but still using an obvious flaw in the system, at least until it got fixed.

[cacyreus]

We don't make balance changes like this due to hardcore.

Personally, I have no issue with the change and I think its positive that Sorcerers were toned down a bit. However, since the balance of the class is being looked at, it makes sense to examine the performance of the different Savant trees.

The Savants were for a long time the only sorcerer trees available. For this reason, while the core mechanics are exactly the same, there was some differentiation: Tier 1 skills, Tier 5 School Focus and Tier 5 Special abilities (Heat Death, Earthgrab, Ice Prison, Wind Dance). While these are relatively in pair which each other, when it comes to the SLA's this is no longer the case. Below, the average damage at max caster level in spell description. To simplify, I am comparing only the nature of the spells offered (AOE, ST, DOT) in the different Savants, leaving out the "quality" of the spells offered. For instance, Niac's cold ray- reflex save NEGATES damage.

Fire - Tier 1 (26 AOE), Tier 4 (55 ST), Tier 5 (65 AOE) - TOTAL 146, of which 91 affects multiple targets.
Earth - Tier 1 (26 AOE), Tier 4 (90 DOT), Tier 5 (65 AOE) - TOTAL 181, of which 65 affects multiple targets and 90 are from a single target DOT.
Air - Tier 1 (26 ST), Tier 4 (25 AOE), Tier 5 (65 ST) - TOTAL 116, of which 25 affects multiple targets
Water - Tier 1 (40 ST), Tier 4 ( 55 AOE), Tier 5 ( 96 ST) - TOTAL 136, of which 55 affect multiple targets

For the same amount of SP and cooldowns, the 4 savants of very different damage outputs. Water comes ahead, but its mostly single target damage. Then comes earth, mostly a one single target DOT. Fire comes 3rd, with over 60% damage affecting multiple targets. Last is Air, with the lowest AOE damage. If we consider that AOE affects 3 targets, the average damage evens out between Fire and Water at about 300, but as we increase the number of targets... Fire gets clearly ahead and in game hitting 3+ targets with a spell happens very, very often.

Adding to this, fire offers a much wider spell selection and a far better progression than the other elements.

Finally, Meteor Storm is another big culprit, because of its incredibly low cooldown 3.5 secs vs. 9 secs on the other spells. Below, average damage at caster level 20 converted to DPS, to eliminate the difference in the cooldown of the spells.

Meteor Storm (3.5 secs) - 4 meteors *(20d3+20 fire, 20d2+20 bludeoning) - TOTAL: 440 - DPS: 126
Acid Well (9 secs) - 20d6 +360 - TOTAL: 430 - DPS: 48
Air - 20d6 + 560 - TOTAL: 630 - DPS: 70
Water - 20d6 + 560 - TOTAL: 630 - DPS: 70

The DPS on Meteor Swarm is almost the DOUBLE of the next contestants, Air and Water.

No wonder that almost every sorcerer in the game chooses fire. Air Savant offers more damage for the same sp cost and cooldown, the spell selection is much wide, spell progression is more linear and the heavy hitter hits for almost the double of the damage available in the other elements. I don't even mention here synergies with other enhancement trees, because thiefling is only slightly ahead of dragonborn, which offers equal damage for all elements. I also didn't look at items, because as far as I can tell, lately all elements have been available, but its possible that this may also contribute.

What is the point of having 4 Savants if fire is so much more rewarding? No one is playing the others. Please, make an effort to bring back diversity to sorcerer.
These are not 4 prestige classes, they could easily be converted into one tree with multiple selectors. This is one prestige class that works very well and 3 variants of it that lag far behind.

[Sythe777]

Personally, I have no issue with the change and I think its positive that Sorcerers were toned down a bit. However, since the balance of the class is being looked at, it makes sense to examine the performance of the different Savant trees.

The Savants were for a long time the only sorcerer trees available. For this reason, while the core mechanics are exactly the same, there was some differentiation: Tier 1 skills, Tier 5 School Focus and Tier 5 Special abilities (Heat Death, Earthgrab, Ice Prison, Wind Dance). While these are relatively in pair which each other, when it comes to the SLA's this is no longer the case. Below, the average damage at max caster level in spell description. To simplify, I am comparing only the nature of the spells offered (AOE, ST, DOT) in the different Savants, leaving out the "quality" of the spells offered. For instance, Niac's cold ray- reflex save NEGATES damage.

Fire - Tier 1 (26 AOE), Tier 4 (55 ST), Tier 5 (65 AOE) - TOTAL 146, of which 91 affects multiple targets.
Earth - Tier 1 (26 AOE), Tier 4 (90 DOT), Tier 5 (65 AOE) - TOTAL 181, of which 65 affects multiple targets and 90 are from a single target DOT.
Air - Tier 1 (26 ST), Tier 4 (25 AOE), Tier 5 (65 ST) - TOTAL 116, of which 25 affects multiple targets
Water - Tier 1 (40 ST), Tier 4 ( 55 AOE), Tier 5 ( 96 ST) - TOTAL 136, of which 55 affect multiple targets

For the same amount of SP and cooldowns, the 4 savants of very different damage outputs. Water comes ahead, but its mostly single target damage. Then comes earth, mostly a one single target DOT. Fire comes 3rd, with over 60% damage affecting multiple targets. Last is Air, with the lowest AOE damage. If we consider that AOE affects 3 targets, the average damage evens out between Fire and Water at about 300, but as we increase the number of targets... Fire gets clearly ahead and in game hitting 3+ targets with a spell happens very, very often.

Adding to this, fire offers a much wider spell selection and a far better progression than the other elements.

Finally, Meteor Storm is another big culprit, because of its incredibly low cooldown 3.5 secs vs. 9 secs on the other spells. Below, average damage at caster level 20 converted to DPS, to eliminate the difference in the cooldown of the spells.

Meteor Storm (3.5 secs) - 4 meteors *(20d3+20 fire, 20d2+20 bludeoning) - TOTAL: 440 - DPS: 126
Acid Well (9 secs) - 20d6 +360 - TOTAL: 430 - DPS: 48
Air - 20d6 + 560 - TOTAL: 630 - DPS: 70
Water - 20d6 + 560 - TOTAL: 630 - DPS: 70

The DPS on Meteor Swarm is almost the DOUBLE of the next contestants, Air and Water.

No wonder that almost every sorcerer in the game chooses fire. Air Savant offers more damage for the same sp cost and cooldown, the spell selection is much wide, spell progression is more linear and the heavy hitter hits for almost the double of the damage available in the other elements. I don't even mention here synergies with other enhancement trees, because thiefling is only slightly ahead of dragonborn, which offers equal damage for all elements. I also didn't look at items, because as far as I can tell, lately all elements have been available, but its possible that this may also contribute.

What is the point of having 4 Savants if fire is so much more rewarding? No one is playing the others. Please, make an effort to bring back diversity to sorcerer.
These are not 4 prestige classes, they could easily be converted into one tree with multiple selectors. This is one prestige class that works very well and 3 variants of it that lag far behind.

Just to correct you on some things: all fire savant SLAs are AoE, and lightning bolt from air savant is an aoe as well.

But I 100% agree.

I think the problem stems from the thematic differences in each element for spells. In the current game/meta, frontloaded damage is king. In almost every MMO(RPG) the meta revolves around killing something as fast as possible. This is to avoid long, drawn-out fights where the chance of damage/dying increases over time (see raid boss fights, high-challenge questing, etc.). As a result, we're seeing the consequences of that meta; mostly fire sorcs with their damage frontloaded, some cold sorcs (before the loss of wave, not sure now) for better frontloaded damage than fire at the loss of AoE, some air sorcs as a flavor difference from fire with increased mobility (wind dance), and no earth sorcs.

Getting back to my point, the spells in the game have a thematic difference and I don't think the problem is necessarily with sorcerers but rather with the spells themselves. Technically, acid is supposed to eclipse fire in terms of power when compared over time, but the problem is that mobs have so few hitpoints that it will never happen even on reaper 10 with a competent group. Sure, you could make the comparison for raids where bosses have millions of health but which raids have a boss you just sit and beat on for >5 minutes without a phase mechanic? Not only are the usability conditions of acid severely limited, I'm not even sure it does more damage over time because of how bad the spell selection is.

If SSG wants truly equal competition between all the savant trees, I think they really need to reconsider the spells available for evocation. I'm not saying make them the same spell with a difference in damage type, but it's clear that DoTs don't serve a purpose beyond flavor at the moment.

[Zretch]

If you are wearing esoteric set which I think most sorcs do, you have order's garb which already has 15% exceptional on it. So really the only thing this patch does to ice sorcs is take away 5% crit chance while adding 5% multi. You still get ALL the other bonuses of Wave which are REALLY substantial. They were already considered to be better single target dps than fire, while fire remained the king of aoe dps, so this only furthers the separation of roles in a good way for Ice to be more CC/boss killer while fire wins the kill count. Every play style wins.

You may want to check that. Cold crit chance should stack with Universal crit chance, even if both are exceptional. That's the way it works with spell power.

[Zretch]

Just to correct you on some things: all fire savant SLAs are AoE, and lightning bolt from air savant is an aoe as well.

Also don't forget that lightning bolt can double and triple tap. For a very cheap, very quick to cast AoE that you can line up like IPS, it's IMO the best sorc SLA.

The tuning and subsequent nerf to Sorcs just smacks of randomness to me. Before the spell tuning pass a year ago, almost no one played sorcs. Not because they weren't strong in heroics, but because they weren't strong in reaper. The reason they weren't strong in reaper is because reaper damage reduction watered down sorc damage, but there was no reduction to sorc spell costs and lost souls (one of the dumbest mechanics ever) either drop too frequently or not frequently enough. Further, the more mana users you had in your group, the more pronounced the ineffeciency of the spells got.

So, rather than simply lowering mana costs of spells as you increased reaper skulls, which would have had the desired effect of slowing down combat while not forcing casters to burn through a full mana bar every 3 mob packs, SSG decided to increase baseline spell damage, which broke sorcerers in Heroics while making them finally playable in higher reaper.

Then a few weeks later, they watered down the reaper damage reduction for spells. Blink. What? Why didn't they lead with that and see if the core spell DPS increase was still needed? Why? Got me.

Then a few weeks later they revamped Epic Destinies and increased DCs tremendously in Magistar, allowing low epic sorcs to hit formerly end game DCs. Then, once you got into your level 29 gear, you switch to Draconic and take advantage of the big increase in spell damage mulitpliers, as well as the amped up Dragon Breath to make a very potent 1-2 punch with Energy Burst. All of which can be used in Elite and low Reaper, where Sorc was already strong.

AoE damage is very tricky to balance, and this isn't the way to do it. Balance your baseline spells and gear for Elite. Then balance the reaper damage reductions and spell costs to ensure that nuking is viable (not watered down to negligible damage), sustainable (a Sorc can play the game and contribute to every fight and still make it to the next shrine), and not overpowered (no 90+% crits that allow AoE 1 shot kills on trash mobs) as you climb the reaper skull levels.

Then once you've done that, you take a hard look at single target nukes. Single target nukes that have huge shared cooldowns are not helpful. Allow sorc builds that specalize in AoE trash clear, and builds that specialize in single target boss nukers with hard hitting single target spells that are hyper effecient so their mana bars can last through an entire raid (most of which don't have rest shrines) without having to sit on their hands during entire phases to save mana for the end.

PS: And before someone says "you don't balance the game for reaper", stop it! Reaper is part of the game, so balance it. Stop thinking of it as balancing the game for reaper, think of it as finally balancing reaper to fit within the game. Not just a lazy "this much more damage in, this much less damage out, here's a bunch of hitpoints" mode that power creep just completely invalidates.

[Verlok_the_Red]

Interesting thread .. upfront, I haven’t read it all .. but .. lets be honest ..sometimes playing reaper is more than just "stats" high crits and gear .. enfact .. I don’t have a single piece of raid gear, and some of my gear is level 30 crafted in exact terms I have 1800hp and 5800sp 107 evo dc 58 rxpoints (nothing fancy, min maxers would even consider it low) .. but .. I run EVERYTHING on R10 .. this means Water Works, Von, Sharn, Raven Loft and everything in between.

Here is the truth.. You don’t need crits, the best stuff .. min maxed chars to the nards or any specific trees to feats.. In fact you can have 10,000 hp, 20,000 sp and 200tr's .. and still wipe/suck endlessly on r10.

The fact is .. all that "stuff" just makes easier.. It allows you to make mistakes, be in-efficiant and be less intue with what is actually going on / lack of planning and details.

For example.

Spell point management is often forgotten about
Strong groups with excellent communication and teamwork makes all the differance
Tactics and strategy is key
Knowing your spells and when to use what when and how
Knowing your monsters, immunities and weaknesses

Here are some example scenarios;

good groups plan their kills and monster management .. there’s no point in the sorcerer fire balling a fresh group of mobs when you have melee.. cast mass-hold first .. let melee hack em down and mop up the rest with a single 4 sp fireball.. Why spend 4-500 sp nuking them 5 times?

How many times have you seen the sorcerer (or other caster) buff themself with quicken on? why? your going to waste your spell points because you cant wait 10 seconds? (spell point management) turn off quicken, and enlarge

Or people that nuke 1 mob? .. lol why waste sp on a single mob?

Use resources like wands, scrolls and pots .. why spend 45 sp on GH when you can scroll it? because its faster.. (also dont be scared to ask for loot like scrolls and pots or other trash to help pay your expenses)

How many times are you out of sp before arriving at the shrine? you should never run out of spell points, ever..

How do you play? do you run into a room and let the nukes fly? or do you set up and plan your fights out? 99/100 its always better to pull mobs to you and drag them through stuff like solidfog and acid fog

Another classic mistake .. if a mob only has 1k hp and your average nuke does 10k .. don’t waste sp on it.. let your group have some kills to.

Other things like having good hot bar placements, click and protections.. ie: don’t make the cleric heal you because you got magic missiled because you forgot to cast shield. Make sure those hot slots are handy..

lastly, (and your going to laugh because you never thought of it in this respect)
CAST EVERY BUFF YOU CAN ON YOURSELF AND PARTY ..

Lets break this down per spell..

Greater Heroism - 45 sp, means a fighters are +2 to attack or more, that translates into 10% (at minimum more hits) it last for 20+ mins.. that translates into you spending 45 sp and doing tens of thousands extra damage.

Blurr - 20% miss rate, means 20% less damage the cleric has to heal and 20% less chance your fighter will die hence you wont become a road pizza when s/he loses agro.

Jump - people can jump out of the way, translates into 100% damage reduction. less healing less damage.
Tumble - same, even better on people that already use tumble.

Haste - 15% attack speed = 15% more damage .. a good party will go out of their way to always group together during the last few seconds before it wears off.

Rage - extra +1 to damage every swing.

Elemental Protection - most traps are scaled towards the average hp at their level, by having that extra 120 points or reduction you improve your chances of taking a fire trap to the face.

there’s many more, but the point is .. if you go into a quest, and your party runs off before you can properly buff.. you know before the first monster dies, its going to be a sit show..

want a good example? try the hardcore server .. people ship up real fast when getting a buff is the difference between rerolling and finishing.

the best part is .. all of thes points can be done by a level 1 first tier sorcere, or the most hardcore vet .. and they dont cost you a dime.. and best of all, they will make your entire experiance as a sorcere much more enjoyable ..

happy nuking!