So...VIPs are apparently getting hosed.

[SerPounce]

I think reporting people is juvenile.

Why? It makes the job of moderators way easier. If a rule is a good idea then the reporting system is an efficient way of supporting it. You're doing all the virtue signalling about the importance of civility, but you don't want rules that actually make it happen?

Also speaking of name calling...

[Ganak]

I'll also add:

Going Free to Play way back ago was a stroke of genius.

I remember the last few months before that occurred things were LEAN. Real lean. I see people complaining about server populations and LFMs today and I think they are crazy. Times have been leaner in the past.

[nokowi]

Why? It makes the job of moderators way easier. If a rule is a good idea then the reporting system is an efficient way of supporting it. You're doing all the virtue signalling about the importance of civility, but you don't want rules that actually make it happen?

Also speaking of name calling...

I don't think rules are the best way to manage player interactions - they are a poor option that sometimes needs to be used.

What is rude or an attack is HIGHLY subjective, and every slight should not result in an attempt at an infraction.

If you disagree, I'm OK with that.


I can see from your response that you think I am being somewhat rude, but my tone is a direct response to your suggestion that I am fabricating things with zero information of your own. Suggesting the internet might be too rough for me is pretty juvenile, in my opinion. I'm not fabricating such things about you.

If you want to enter a conversation on a discussion basis, the personal slights can be removed to better make your point.

Asking others to clarify is far better than suggesting falsehoods.

Take my suggestion for whatever it is worth to you, but rudeness is often a reciprocation.

[Enkidu]

So reading the following announcement from SSG, VIPs are basically paying for what they're now giving away for everyone else now.

https://ddo.com/en/news/free-questin...ng-stone-games

Permanent +1% xp bonus per party member?! Are you guys kidding us right now?! Thinking about cancelling my sub now because due compensation for those of us that are actually paying for this game has been so outrageously lacking, what you've just announced here is an insult.

You gave us a crummy cake last time, now it appears you're giving us something (that doesn't quite belong) in a Mountain Dew bottle.

Actually because of the access to free content VIPs get into the pay expansions just like everyone else when they shouldn't have access. Should those of us who bought the packs complain that your VIP cheapskate butt shouldn't be in our xpack? Seriously, some people just can't be happy when other people get a break.

[SerPounce]

I don't think rules are the best way to manage player interactions - they are a poor option that sometimes needs to be used.

What is rude or an attack is HIGHLY subjective, and every slight should not result in an attempt at an infraction.

If you disagree, I'm OK with that.


I can see from your response that you think I am being somewhat rude, but my tone is a direct response to your suggestion that I am fabricating things with zero information of your own. Suggesting the internet might be too rough for me is pretty juvenile, in my opinion. I'm not fabricating such things about you.

If you want to enter a conversation on a discussion basis, the personal slights can be removed to better make your point.

Asking others to clarify is far better than suggesting falsehoods.

Take my suggestion for whatever it is worth to you, but rudeness is often a reciprocation.

It's pretty easy to see what an unmoderated forum looks like. Go check out 8chan. Yeah, I'll pass on that.

[nokowi]

It's pretty easy to see what an unmoderated forum looks like. Go check out 8chan. Yeah, I'll pass on that.

Of course I didn't ask for an unmoderated forum, and that was not the alternative I proposed.

Do you think your statement here is a misrepresentation of what I said, or do you actually equate my individual preference for moderation as a poor but necessary option with a completely unmoderated forum for everyone?

I'm curious how you can misrepresent and alter everything I say repeatedly.

[krolikru3]

So reading the following announcement from SSG, VIPs are basically paying for what they're now giving away for everyone else now.

https://ddo.com/en/news/free-questin...ng-stone-games

Permanent +1% xp bonus per party member?! Are you guys kidding us right now?! Thinking about cancelling my sub now because due compensation for those of us that are actually paying for this game has been so outrageously lacking, what you've just announced here is an insult.

You gave us a crummy cake last time, now it appears you're giving us something (that doesn't quite belong) in a Mountain Dew bottle.

I'm a VIP as well - we aren't getting scammed. We were able to play the content for the past 10 years, where as new players or people that have not had the packs have not had to do that. This is better for the overall health of the game - if you really care about DDO, you will applaud SSG like the rest of us for trying to attract and retain new players. It's bad enough new players have a huge learning curve to overcome - why is it so bad that they are able to run Necro and TBC for free? Are you telling me that your toon is going to become obsolete because a few new players are able to grind some catacombs items for free on their first lifers? C'mon now.

[kanordog]

Complaint

Sarcastic complaint

What if the game NEEDS more players to stay on the market and/or interesting.
What will your X years of VIP will worth if they shut down the servers for good, huh?

[SerPounce]

Take my suggestion for whatever it is worth to you, but rudeness is often a reciprocation.

You might want to consider your own words friend.

Personally I'm not bothered by anything you said, I just find it kind of hypocritical given all your virtue signaling about civility.

[Merfyn]

None of what you said there has any bearing outside of your personal bubble, simply because none if it is correct...and, I'm going to assume that you don't fully understand a very important concept: The fact that I'm CURRENTLY paying for what SSG is CURENTLY giving away for free.

If you can't see the disconnect there, then there's no further point in conversing.

I'm happy that the OP realized what a massive tool his original complaints made him out to be, and now pretends he was talking about VIP not being worthwhile going forward. Which is something worth debate & discussion.

It seems like this has been well-covered now, and hopefully everyone is a bit more rational about it: some people think it's good and will continue, while others feel it lost what value they thought it had and will continue to threaten to quit. Personally I dislike subscription fees because of my own irregular usage, so I've probably had no more than a years' worth VIP between two accounts.

There's two complaints about VIP that **seem** to me to be worth further consideration. Here's the first:

How about a partial refund for the 1,000 players that paid out $300.

Sure, there's no chance SSG would pay back money for services fairly rendered, even if we weren't in the middle of the Wuhan Flu epidemic. However, I wouldn't see any reason those who subscribed for a full year getting some in-game goodness like a +8 tome would be unbalancing.

The second I didn't see expressed but which occurred to me is for anyone who's treated this game exclusively on a subscription basis and never purchased modules with TP. If they go Premium after this deal's August expiration, I believe that means they lose access to all the content-y goodness provided?

[slarden]

Ok I can feel VIPs who want a tad more...we get it.


Another way for VIP's to look at this...is that if you are like me, you have invested a TON of time and money into this game.


And our hard earned investment means NOTHING if the game does not do well and shuts down.



This was an astute move by SSG to attract, win back and retain players which is important to prolong the game, as well as our investments made into it.

Not just that this is the single best chance for vets (VIP or not) to create an alt account for either alts that can level with their main (double dipping), looting or something else. Some % of players will spend money on their alt accounts and some won't - but it seems like pure win for SSG and players to me.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

Not just that this is the single best chance for vets (VIP or not) to create an alt account for either alts that can level with their main (double dipping), looting or something else. Some % of players will spend money on their alt accounts and some won't - but it seems like pure win for SSG and players to me.

Exactly. It becomes even better when you combine looting and buffs i.e. bard. Throwing up a sustaining song at the start of a quest makes it a whole lot easier.

[Sylvado]

I find it better to be critical of opinions than to be critical of the individual people behind them.

Opinions can be wrong. Opinions sometimes do not align with facts. Those opinions should be called out and even dismissed when appropriate.

Yes, how someone feels is legitimate, but the reason they feel a certain way may be less so.

But if someone has a different view from mine, I will try to determine how and why they have that different view. If the reasoning is sound, I may change my mind. If it's not sound, I will either point that out, and/or continue with my own view.

What is happening here is no where near as dangerous as this can be (it's my opinion that the world is flat and I'm so sick of all the conspiracies that I build my own rocket to fly into space and take pictures to prove it and end up crashing and dying, or it's my opinion that modern medication is the work of the devil so I deny my sick child proper medication and they end up dying... so no, all opinions are not equal)... all this is really just to say: arguing against the arguments/opinions or others is far better/more productive than attacking the actual individuals who make them.

Sometimes to do that you have to explain your side as well. Why is detailing your side based on facts (this is what I know VIP offers) and asking questions that may shine a light on holes in another persons opinion such a terrible thing? IMO that's how discussions should be. Why is the one trying to express their opinion with facts (here is a list of everything different levels gives) and questions like "why are people getting so worked up over this?" the one in the wrong?

Also, if all opinions are indeed equal, then isn't the opinion that the person who is upset is being silly also a valid opinion?

(my apologies, that became a bit rant-y. Attacking people is bad. Attacking the argument and weeding out weak/unsubstantiated opinions via facts and well supported opinions is good. Figuring out which arguments/opinions are more valid than others is the challenge though, especially when people get emotionally invested in one side or the other)

In any scenario people are the problem, trust data, never people.

[Sylvado]

I agree with everything you have said.

The core issue is that less than 10% of people seem to be able to express their own opinion without inserting it over the top of someone else's opinion, and that there is this incessant need to diminish rather than accept an opposing opinion.

The forum crowd is generally not capable of doing what you speak of.

When people speak of "facts", often they are actually opinions.


A post that does what you say acknowledges that alternate opinion, and does not try to diminish it.

"I value those gold roll more than the OP, so I am happier with the current VIP package."

In a thread full of diminishing posts, this requires more care and effort than in a thread absent those diminishing posts.

Understanding that a counter opinion is both rational and reasonable seems to be beyond the grasp of many posters.


A typical DDO posts looks like this "Only an entitled and ____ and ____ person" would have an opinion other than my own". Fill in whatever negatives you like in the blanks.


I blame Facebook and social media in general for this total lack of reasoning.

Reasoning would make it clear that Premium players lose more is this plan. VIP can use the coupon and not renew VIP. Premium players don't get back the points for packs they already own.

[learst]

Reasoning would make it clear that Premium players lose more is this plan. VIP can use the coupon and not renew VIP. Premium players don't get back the points for packs they already own.

I didn't know "premium" and "VIP" are mutually exclusive options.

Unfortunately I'm in the dumb category of players who's always keep a sub up but occasionally buy packs on sale when my sub lapses, thinking one day I might go premium. So I've bought packs but never gotten around to use them, since I'm effectively on sub. I don't mind paying a sub, the main attraction for VIP is the all-access. I couldn't care less about the bonus XP etc since I mostly play just Permadeath.


Premium players who bought their packs enjoyed their purchases while not being on sub. While dumb players like me never got around to enjoying my purchases, and now with all adventure packs going free it was apparently a waste of my DDO points then.

[Sylvado]

I didn't know "premium" and "VIP" are mutually exclusive options.

Unfortunately I'm in the dumb category of players who's always keep a sub up but occasionally buy packs on sale when my sub lapses, thinking one day I might go premium. So I've bought packs but never gotten around to use them, since I'm effectively on sub. I don't mind paying a sub, the main attraction for VIP is the all-access. I couldn't care less about the bonus XP etc since I mostly play just Permadeath.


Premium players who bought their packs enjoyed their purchases while not being on sub. While dumb players like me never got around to enjoying my purchases, and now with all adventure packs going free it was apparently a waste of my DDO points then.

You missed my point

[stengdog123]

I see this type of comment on occasion, and it's kind of a bad assumption. It's more like this:

Free player benefits (has spent no money):

• Can play DDO
• Can grind favor to earn DDO Points
• Can spent earned DDO Points on account upgrades
• Permanently owns any purchased account upgrades
• 2 characters per server
• Has a gold cap that increases a bit each level
• Has limits to ability to chat
• Has limits to ability to use Auction House

Effect of the coupon on Free players: skip most of the favor grinding to unlock most of the current content

Premium player benefits (Has spent at least $5 on game):

• Can play DDO
• Can grind favor to earn DDO Points
• Can spend earned DDO Points on account upgrades
• Permanently owns any purchased account upgrades
• 2 more character slots per server then a Free Player
• No gold cap
• No chat restrictions
• No auction house restrictions

Effect of the coupon on Premium players: skip most of the favor grinding to unlock most of the current content

VIP Benefits:

• Can Play DDO
• Can grind favor for DDO Points
• Can spend earned DDO Points on account upgrades
• Rents all adventure packs, Premium races, and Premium classes
• Permanently owns any purchased account upgrades
• 8 more character slots per server then a Free player
• No gold cap
• No chat restrictions
• No auction house restrictions
• Can enter a quest for the first time on Elite, even on a first life character
• Stacking 10% XP bonus
• Stacking 1% per additional player in group (max 5%) XP bonus (soon)
• One free Gold roll per week (roughly a $2 value)
• 500 free DDO Points per month (about $7 value)
• Shared Bank access
• Shared Crafting bank access
• Shared Platinum bank access
• Other benefits I can't remember off hand

What the coupon code does for VIP: Wont lose access to the current adventure packs you hadn't already purchased if you have to drop down to Premium.

I really don't see why people are getting so worked up over this coupon. It's not stripping value from your VIP any more then using those DDO Point grants to buy adventure packs did. Not to mention Free and Premium players were already capable of getting access to all the game's content at zero monetary cost. Sure it takes a while, but it is possible. The coupon doesn't remove the restrictions from a Free account. It doesn't give a Premium account most of the benefits from being VIP either.

This is the best, most well-thought out post that I've seen over the last two days on this thread. You are to be commended. As a VIP subscriber, I agree with you 110%.

[KBBQ]

This is the best, most well-thought out post that I've seen over the last two days on this thread. You are to be commended. As a VIP subscriber, I agree with you 110%.

Totally agree with you, that post sums up why VIP isn't exactly being directly harmed in any way. Infact we are being buffed, especially newer VIP subscribers during the covid era (like myself) who are now being given a 'better' path to access content we otherwise wouldn't have even with a short-term VIP sub. But for most people it's not a major buff to something that could already feel pretty underwhelming.

VIP still feeling underpowered is sort of a separate discussion, but i think the core issue there is that one of the main attracting features of the game is its depth and customization, yet with how the game's scaling and difficulty is designed
(1) you're not really incentivized to make alts and just mess around with different builds / work on different characters because of the BTC nature of favor and PL rewards etc.
(2) actually enjoying its depth and customization in being able to make viable/fun builds that can contribute well in groups at the game's true base difficulty, Reaper, remains very difficult without spending a lot of time on the grind wheel
(3) VIP bonuses make a bit of a dent in this process but not much.

The case can definitely be made that VIP isn't getting directly nerfed, but might feel less worth it than ever, because that core issue hasn't really been addressed yet.

[SkyJ89]

Yes, the person who's job just finished paying would be irked.

DDO is a luxury good and also a service, not remotely in the construction vertical. I've operated in luxury goods markets for decades, thus I know how customers in those markets react in specific archetypes because servicing them day in/day out you either figure it out or slowly go out of business. I don't pretend one archetype doesn't exist or can magically be transformed into a different archetype because if they only saw things my way. That's as sure as **** a way to not be in the luxury market as any after doing that enough times. This doesn't mean that people who weigh other VIP benefits differently are wrong, they simply operate under different primary motivations.

Services industry goes through this so much that have entire retention departments just for dealing with people who are ****ed off. But, let's take a specific example. DirectTV, if you were a long time customer they would inch and inch up their pricing, and if you didn't pay attention they'd try to extract more and more value from people who weren't constantly cable/sat shopping. Meanwhile they're constantly offering crazy deals to everyone who walks in the door (wait, how does the existing customer know this, because they stupidly send flyers to everyone). Does that create blowback? Of course. Cable/Sat companies are some of the most hated companies in the US. What do people who work for them tell you? That you have to threaten to quit, and then they find a better deal for you. But, what if you don't want to constantly find a better deal? Well, then you wait for HBONOW and Netflix and you kick DirectTV to the curb and never ever come back.

To solve the above for internet, one can pay for business class cable to wherever one is located, residential or otherwise. Why, because business class, even though one pays more, gets astronomically better service over time and rarely ever deals with the hassles of consumer class.

Same rule applies here.

Yeah, I know it hurts if u look from a cosumer perspective. But its another matter if u look from the business perspective. With so many cable company fishing for more customer, and if u don't change your price, there is no way your companies gonna survive. Yes there would be loyal customer that maybe like the company logo or something that wont budge even if the competitor price are more than half as cheap but how many of those customer made up of the company customer base? Could the company survive merely base on their support? Would they one day get bored of the logo unsubscribe their service? What will happen when those customer left and the cable company still don't lower their price? I'm sure no companies wants to offend their loyal customer but there are times that business need to be run this way in order to survive. People are tolerant of those companies for a reason. Are those company to be blame for constantly issuing promotional flyer in order to survive?

To solve the above for internet, one can pay for business class cable to wherever one is located, residential or otherwise. Why, because business class, even though one pays more, gets astronomically better service over time and rarely ever deals with the hassles of consumer class.

That's where the whole ordeal is all about. Because different customer sign up VIP out of different reason. There are times when promotional features had a conflict with certain VIP feature that some customer frown upon. But is it worth a hassle over an incident that rarely occurs? How tolerant a person can be is always gauged by a person way of perspective and acceptance. Its never anyone's fault. Some people are more tolerant with a hassle that rarely occurs. Some just can't seems to see past even a single flaw. Is the company at fault for causing such inconvenience? Maybe. But from a business point of view, it might be a better option for the company make this decision at a time of opportunity and pacify the offended later. The company might lose more if they don't act. Is it a bad business decision? Only the company management who have weight upon their option based on the data they have collected would know.

What u are saying are just merely a feedback from a consumer. Not that it is unimportant but its just one of the pieces that the company management put on their scale to weight upon. There are other pieces that exist on that scale as well.

[nokowi]

You might want to consider your own words friend.

Personally I'm not bothered by anything you said, I just find it kind of hypocritical given all your virtue signaling about civility.

Those were your own words, not mine.

True I didn't correct you when you talked about civility, but you were having enough trouble already.

What I would like is for people to be able to express their opinions on the forums, without the kind of misrepresentation and opinion-bashing that is so common here.

It doesn't have to be civil, but your responses fed exactly into what I was talked about earlier - which is misrepresentation and attacking opinions other than your own. Wandering from how you thought people couldn't have made personal attacks (with zero research), how I must not be tough enough for the internet, to how my view on reporting people (not doing it) was wrong in your opinion.

None of these comments were discussion based, and all based on your desire to disagree with me without any real substance or meaning to the disagreement.


Why would you be bothered? Nobody is putting down your opinions, telling you that you are not tough enough for the internet, telling you your opinion on reporting is wrong, or that your first hand experiences are wrong completely without basis.



If you replace your words (civility) with mine - acceptance that other people can and should have other opinions, it would all make sense.

That would involve listening to others, and not speaking for them.