Shield mastery & large shield for defense

[janave]

While these are technically "combat style" feats, they add super little defense value relative to other sources of Physical Resistance Rating when used with a large shield.

comparing:
1 x feat: +5PRR ( only 7 available by standard )

to:
1 x past life feat (stacking many times): +3PRR
1 x filigree: +3PRR
1 x ap: commonly* +3PRR
1 x accessory mythic II bonus: +3PRR
1 x shield and armor mythic II bonus: +4PRR
1 x reaper defense bonus: +3PRR



Remnant Tome of PRR: up to +4 PRR. ( altho the price for the last 2 is not for everyone)


What i am trying to get at, is that the "build cost" relative to the PRR gained is relatively large, other sources of very available PRR are super close and abundant.

Say, a single high level sheltering item is 50+ PRR (commonly available), compare that to the 5PRR from a heroic feat called "Shield mastery" that needs an offhand slot. While set bonuses add circa +20PRR.


I cant see why a defensive cleric, fvs, or druid would want to take these feats who dont also melee, and if they melee they more likely to use twf or thf anyway.


As always thanks for your attention =)

[cru121]

I guess it's comparable to Heavy Armor Combatant: While in heavy armor, get +3 PRR and MRR.
Yeah, it's pretty lackluster. Many feats are.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Well, for a character completely without Past Lives and without Reaper, it might still be relevant. First-Lifers and such, below end game, of course.
For a leve 3 character, every point is relevant with let's say just 70 health points.

[janave]

Well, for a character completely without Past Lives and without Reaper, it might still be relevant. First-Lifers and such, below end game, of course.
For a leve 3 character, every point is relevant with let's say just 70 health points.

You are absolutely right, the feat is relevant and useful for many builds. It is also true that the +5PRR is quite a bit better than most skill bonus feats.

However, some classes with large shield support have very few ways to improve their defenses from the shield itself: Druid, Favored Soul, Clerics, they would have to give up vital feats for the 5PRR, rarely a good trade.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I agree : Feats are too precious and some classes just have more important feats to take than shield related feats.

[droid327]

To be complete: SM with a Large shield offers +5 PRR, 3% Doublestrike, and +3 MP. You have to look at the entire value of the feat, especially if you're comparing it to all those other things that only offer PRR

Also keep in mind it opens up the Legendary Shield Mastery twist (with ISM), which offers another 15 PRR and 7% Doublestrike. And using Large Shields already carry the secondary benefit of double MRR against Reflex-save damage spells.

Now that being said, you're not wrong that SM is underwhelming in comparison to other fighting styles...for one, it should qualify for EDF bonus steps, which would nicely make THFx3+SMx2 give you the full bonus...but I dont think its necessarily the PRR that's the biggest issue, I think it needs stronger offensive bonuses to help keep S&B style more competitive (without needing to go deep in Vanguard cores)

[janave]

To be complete: SM with a Large shield offers +5 PRR, 3% Doublestrike, and +3 MP. You have to look at the entire value of the feat, especially if you're comparing it to all those other things that only offer PRR

Also keep in mind it opens up the Legendary Shield Mastery twist (with ISM), which offers another 15 PRR and 7% Doublestrike. And using Large Shields already carry the secondary benefit of double MRR against Reflex-save damage spells.

Now that being said, you're not wrong that SM is underwhelming in comparison to other fighting styles...for one, it should qualify for EDF bonus steps, which would nicely make THFx3+SMx2 give you the full bonus...but I dont think its necessarily the PRR that's the biggest issue, I think it needs stronger offensive bonuses to help keep S&B style more competitive (without needing to go deep in Vanguard cores)

The point is, why would a *caster* druid, fvs, cleric ( to less extent artificer) look at the melee benefits, when trying to improve defenses using a shield, but not interested in the combat style at all?

If there were other shield feats adding to shield prr/dr/mrr/ac/etc bonuses that would work i guess.

I am definitely interested in comparing defenses only, very reason for the title .

Anyway, dont really mind if it stays the way it is, i just prefer stuff that promises a lot to actually live up to it, "shield mastery" for a large shield user looking at defenses is absolutely minor. If Legendary Shield Mastery had only one feat requirement that would be a fair investment tho, 2 feats for a caster => another weak roi build path.

[unbongwah]

Shield Mastery was always intended for S&B melees, the problems are (A) the PRR bonuses are too modest for the current game and (B) Doublestrike doesn't "wrap around" like Doubleshot so eventually you hit a hard cap on benefits. That's what happens when you don't revisit feats for 7 or 8 years.

While they're at it, it would be nice if Shield Deflection provided a passive bonus - e.g. a MRR boost vs elemental damage - rather than only applying while active-blocking.

[janave]

Shield Mastery was always intended for S&B melees, the problems are (A) the PRR bonuses are too modest for the current game and (B) Doublestrike doesn't "wrap around" like Doubleshot so eventually you hit a hard cap on benefits. That's what happens when you don't revisit feats for 7 or 8 years.

While they're at it, it would be nice if Shield Deflection provided a passive bonus - e.g. a MRR boost vs elemental damage - rather than only applying while active-blocking.

I see what you mean, however there should be room for shield feats that aim to improve shield defense for characters, meaningfully. Shield Deflection is an odd one, on paper, it is incredibly powerful, technically tho the few instances where it is actually useful ( new raids with insane elemental dmg spam) dont mix well with its limitations for most builds.

Then there are the shield bash feats, already covering boosting S&B dps and align much better with the combat style than the passive Shield Mastery feats.

Doublestrike could be an engine or game rule limitation to cap at most 4 hits per attack. I dont see anything wrong with this, i think most (if not all) attack types actually split at 4.