Remove Dire Charge

[Bjond]

Remove Dire Charge and add it's functionality to Overwhelming Critical.

Why? Well, the spring attack change shows devs are aware of the gap-closing issues faced by melee. However, that it was added to spring attack is really just a bad joke. There are almost zero builds that use it or can even afford the feat tax -- just the old WWA Monk, which I think U45 killed with it's other changes to WWA.

So, why not merge two feats that melee already take in almost every build? It only helps melee. It helps gap-close. And, it moves builds and playstyles from primarily L29+ to L21+. The existing scaling should work fine for L21, too: if you build for it, your stun works, and not if you don't.

Hmm. I wonder how many will reply to the title alone without reading the first sentence?

[droid327]

So, why not merge two feats that melee already take in almost every build?

You answered your own question - you're essentially asking for Dire Charge to be made free. What's the justification for reducing the opportunity cost for it?

Also I dont see why Spring Attack cant be part of any melee build. Fighting Style x3, IC: Something, Dodge/Mob/SA. I disagree that Dodge and Mob are completely wasteful - its +2 Max Dodge for any non-Cloth build, and several races/classes can unlock even more after the feat. Plus many classes are going to get bonus feats, or go Human, if you need to squeeze in something like Ins Reflex or Knights Training.

[SirValentine]

Your post is too long, so I didn't even read the first sentence of it. But I support your title alone!

[palladin9479]

You answered your own question - you're essentially asking for Dire Charge to be made free. What's the justification for reducing the opportunity cost for it?

Also I dont see why Spring Attack cant be part of any melee build. Fighting Style x3, IC: Something, Dodge/Mob/SA. I disagree that Dodge and Mob are completely wasteful - its +2 Max Dodge for any non-Cloth build, and several races/classes can unlock even more after the feat. Plus many classes are going to get bonus feats, or go Human, if you need to squeeze in something like Ins Reflex or Knights Training.

Nobody is wasting feats on Dodge and Mobility unless their build requires them for something else, so like Dex based Tempest Ranger. Otherwise feats are too valuable in heroics and by the time we get to epics Dire Charge is right around the corner so SA becomes redundant. Even fighter has more important things to spend feats on them Dodge and Mobility. In P&P Dodge was a +5% reduce in the chance for things to hit you, and mobility was actually useful because movement and avoiding AoO are super critical. In DDO's horde fest where we are frequently thrown against dozens of monsters in waves and AC becomes all or nothing, Dodge + Mobility are simply too ineffective to be worth taking.

[Bjond]

You answered your own question - you're essentially asking for Dire Charge to be made free. What's the justification for reducing the opportunity cost for it?

One of my biggest gripes with ANY game are "defining abilities" that come AFTER level 1. If it defines the play, it needs to ALWAYS be there. Leveling should make your character stronger. It should not make it different.

DDO is about TR'ing. So, it should focus it's efforts on the TRIP rather than the destination. L29 is a destination, not part of the trip. The usual arguments of a learning-progression for lowbie abilities don't apply to DDO because the game is expecting you to play at L1 over 50x on a single character.

BTW, your count is off for feats: precision, ic:weapon, 3xStyle leaves only 2 free feats, which (for my builds) are never "free" and often are at least one feat short without venturing near pointless junk like Dodge & Mobility. If not taking precision, there's power-attack and cleaves leaving zero free feats. Are you arguing that dodge+mobility+spring beats precision or power+cleaves? You can toss all the biscuits you want, but that dog won't hunt.

If I had to pick between Dire Charge at L21 or Overwhelming @ L21, Dire would win. Overwhelming is an incremental. Dire is defining. If I could, I'd take Dire at L1 on melee and push all the rest out 3 levels. It's that much of a change in play-style.

[Xgya]

One of my biggest gripes with ANY game are "defining abilities" that come AFTER level 1. If it defines the play, it needs to ALWAYS be there. Leveling should make your character stronger. It should not make it different.

Sure. Let Sorcs have big AoEs right at level 1.
Having huge AoE damage spells is a defining trait of Sorcerers.

/sarcasm

Leveling should add more options to what your character can do.
Turning into a Lich doesn't change the fact you're a Wizard.
Dire Charge won't stop you from fighting in melee the same you already were.

Every new ability adds either a new option, or a synergy to things you could already do.
Getting access to para-arrows is build-defining. Getting improved critical is synergistic.

The fact that Dire Charge is so strong it becomes build-defining is a good point towards nerfing or removing that option. If it's so strong it makes everything else you did before irrelevant, it's probably TOO strong.

[droid327]

Nobody is wasting feats on Dodge and Mobility unless their build requires them for something else, so like Dex based Tempest Ranger.

Even fighter has more important things to spend feats on them Dodge and Mobility.

In DDO's horde fest where we are frequently thrown against dozens of monsters in waves and AC becomes all or nothing, Dodge + Mobility are simply too ineffective to be worth taking.

Better things like what? Or, more precisely, what that wouldnt be considered a tradeoff for a mobility skill? You dont NEED a charge. It makes being a melee more convenient, but not having it doesnt prevent you from playing. You can be a charger, or a cleaver, or a tactician, etc. - I dont think that's necessarily an unfair tradeoff.

And you kinda contradict yourself there - you say that AC isnt worthwhile unless you fully invest in it. But that means if you dont invest in it, then non-AC defense becomes more valuable. 2% more Dodge is worth a lot; increasingly so the more you already have. I think you're just undervaluing it because everyone else undervalues it. I'm not saying I'd take two +1% Dodge feats just by themselves, per se...just that those two feats arent totally devoid of value, its not pure filler to unlock SA the way that, say, CE is to unlock WW.

One of my biggest gripes with ANY game are "defining abilities" that come AFTER level 1. If it defines the play, it needs to ALWAYS be there. Leveling should make your character stronger. It should not make it different.

Are you arguing that dodge+mobility+spring beats precision or power+cleaves?

If I could, I'd take Dire at L1 on melee and push all the rest out 3 levels. It's that much of a change in play-style.

I halfway agree with your first point. Playstyle-defining abilities shouldnt be backloaded too deep in a build. That's my issue with L14 Cleric domains (considering how often clerics need to MC to be effective). That's my issue with Cocoon in Epic, without a Heroic corollary. I dont think it needs to be from L1, though. There can be some ramp-up. I think that was the idea behind T5 Enhancements, you ramp up and then at L12 you get the full playbook. I dont think Dire Charge is build-defining though. It doesnt let you do anything you cant otherwise do, the way that Cocoon lets you heal if you cant otherwise. It just lets you do things faster.

Also you kinda contradict yourself too. If Dire Charge is so powerful that you'd build around it, then why isnt Spring Attack worth building around, making tradeoffs for? You could potentially have that fairly early in Heroic and be able to make frequent use of it.

[Bjond]

You dont NEED a charge

The charge is more of a QOL when you're with a group; kinda helps keep the critters near you rather than all strung out chasing the silly inquisitive that's kiting things back to the zone entry. Tip for ranged: you can actually jump kite on top of melee to keep the packs still (or build ice-storm or other slows into your ranged).

It's the AE stun and the single-feat (low cost) aspect that make it valuable.

2% more Dodge is worth a lot

It's utterly worthless -- all my builds are well over the cap without it (none of the 3 feats increase the cap). If it increased the cap, then it might be useful, though that would just edge it up into the "hmm" range for a build that happened to have an extra feat.

I halfway agree with your first point. Playstyle-defining abilities shouldnt be backloaded too deep in a build. .. I dont think it needs to be from L1, though. There can be some ramp-up

Yeah, that's why I suggested merging with Overwhelming Critical (L21). I just want more mileage of it on an ETR rather than getting it just before you ETR again and loose it. It seems about right for an epic feat. It's certainly fun and I'd take it at L1 if I could, but heroics don't need it.