WWA kinda maybe not worth taking...

[Nickodeamous]

Ok, i know i have a main thread on the general forum, but the change that was made to WWA is terrible. Especially if your doublestrike is lousy. I just epic Reincarnated to 20, and there is a mega difference. Sure, its actually not bad when you are surrounded by multiple mobs, but dont even waste your time on a boss. It is slow and clunky and is a definite dps loss when fighting 1 mob.

I cant imagine how bad it is if you take it at lev 6 with no speed item. I had to forgo one of my main twists to take action boost speed just to feel normal.

Anyway, gripe over. I know SSG is aware of the scaling issue with this expensive feat and are discussing it for a potential update after u46.

Anybody else use or not use. What feats are you using instead for a handwrap monk? I wish i could use a few feat swaps at lev 29...before that, its meh.

Thanks!
Nico

[Havocthedemon]

Ok, i know i have a main thread on the general forum, but the change that was made to WWA is terrible. Especially if your doublestrike is lousy. I just epic Reincarnated to 20, and there is a mega difference. Sure, its actually not bad when you are surrounded by multiple mobs, but dont even waste your time on a boss. It is slow and clunky and is a definite dps loss when fighting 1 mob.

I cant imagine how bad it is if you take it at lev 6 with no speed item. I had to forgo one of my main twists to take action boost speed just to feel normal.

Anyway, gripe over. I know SSG is aware of the scaling issue with this expensive feat and are discussing it for a potential update after u46.

Anybody else use or not use. What feats are you using instead for a handwrap monk? I wish i could use a few feat swaps at lev 29...before that, its meh.

Thanks!
Nico

Well, it is still absolutely worth taking. There is simply no other substitute for WWA every 6 seconds on a monk.
It’s what makes you better than twf and even with tempest DoD. If you’re actually good, you’re still better than Tempest at cap.

Yes they slowed down WWA and it has a much lower floor than before, but the ceiling is still as high as it was. Yes it sucks without a speed item, but melee in general does. Also, we used to always take action speed boost, trust me I’ve played close to 30 lives as just a monk on my main and that’s what he is at now. It’s only recently that we have been lazy and decided to forgo speed boost for other twists so we can hit harder. As always, you must adjust and adapt as a monk to stay in the kill count which trust me, is definitely possible. You can forgo WWA at your own peril, but it’s a bad choice imo.

[peng]

Wwa was *always* a dps loss vs 1 target. It was, and still is, always a dps gain vs 2+ targets. Yes it's worse now at low levels, particularly if you aren't hasted and have low doublestrike. At higher doublestrike, it gains dps while hasted vs pre-u45, even without haste boost. With haste boost, it's even better.

I'll consider taking wwa later, but I will still take it on every unarmed build.

[Ordinary]

My main is a monk, and the issue with WWA which I have yet to try as I am working on his Alchemist lives is very worrying for me.
Although he has built in 15% alacrity, I never took haste boost as a twist as suggested above, and I don't plan to either as I just do not have space for it.
If its an issue for me when I finally get back to Monk, then I will just switch to a different build.

[Nickodeamous]

My main is a monk, and the issue with WWA which I have yet to try as I am working on his Alchemist lives is very worrying for me.
Although he has built in 15% alacrity, I never took haste boost as a twist as suggested above, and I don't plan to either as I just do not have space for it.
If its an issue for me when I finally get back to Monk, then I will just switch to a different build.

Before the change, my twists were as follows:
Sense weakness - tier 4
Grim precision- tier 3
Lithe - tier 2
Legendary tactics- tier 1
Misc - pick em' (changes based on quest situation

Now, my twists are locked at:

Sense weakness - tier 4
Grim precision- tier 3
Haste boost - tier 3
Legendary tactics- tier 1
Twist 5 - not useable without all 48 past lives

Taking haste boost is not a bad thing, but, i have 34 epic past lives, so it is doable. For levels below 30, i have to give up grim precision...but i get iit back at lev 30.

Anyway, haste boost is a must now. 15% alacrity is meh at best, but you absolutely need it. I have had sucess with this combo. But it has taken some gettinh used to. I now manage another button i didnt have to really manage before.

According to another post above, haste boost was a must, but i never thought about taking it.1

Anyway, id give it a try anyway if i were you. It has changed the way i play, but not killed it as i originally suspected. Now, that being said, this feat is not as good at lower levels now especially with low doublestrike. Max that out where you can and only use WWA on multiple mobs.

Nico

[Havocthedemon]

My main is a monk, and the issue with WWA which I have yet to try as I am working on his Alchemist lives is very worrying for me.
Although he has built in 15% alacrity, I never took haste boost as a twist as suggested above, and I don't plan to either as I just do not have space for it.
If its an issue for me when I finally get back to Monk, then I will just switch to a different build.

Well you’re not hurting anyone’s feelings by switching to a different build, certainly not SSG. If you make a suboptimal choice by consciously choosing not to use action boost haste (which most melee toons do anyway) then don’t expect it to perform as well without it. Things change, and the change to WWA is not as bad as any of the nerfs we monks have been through before.

Nicko is correct in his assessment, and the twist layout is exactly what I determined on my own as well, at least for max DPS. I go a more defensive route when I solo but he’s right on the money. Also, if you just refuse to change your twists, you can spend some AP in vistani for it. Again, these are options to make the monk not just viable, but better than pre u45. Take the advice, be sub optimal, or switch to something different like you said. No one here is going to take your decisions personally.

[DrawingGuy]

@Nick - I appreciate the pressure you put on the Devs to prove that it was a nerf. Hopefully they will raise the floor of the nerf to make it less painful in heroics and have it be less floaty and clunky without haste boost. However the nerf is NOT at the level of no longer taking it, and as numbers have shown, the potential is higher even at slower speeds due to doublestrike on the second attack. I'd give up the extra attack potential to lose the low end clunkiness, but we'll see what the Devs propose. Just pay attention to when u46 gets proposed in Lam, and bring the low end slowness back up there.


I will say I'm still in the camp of Balanced Attacks over Grim Precision. You can easily push 100% fort bypass with gear and Precision. Then Expose Weakness 50% + Jade 25% + Destruction 15% (Deconstructor ftw) is another 90% (that also helps the whole party). 25% more if you go Dark Monk with D>D>D. If in GMoF, you have an option for 200% with Petal and 10% with Piercing Clarity. While I admit that I haven't fully caught up to all of the game balance and mechanic changes in the last few updates, my understanding is that new content has fort set to 3xCR for high fort mobs, which means fort bypass in the 120s would cover most content, with 180s on the absolute high end. So going into a mob with 80ish fort bypass and a Coordinated Strike to pop out a mass Expose Weakness just covered you, and having 90ish will cover any target after debuffs. I just don't see Grim Precision helping outside of the rare dodge mob or if for some reason you can't reach 80+ on bypass. Balanced Attacks, on the other hand, is a free helpless trigger (which is insanely effective on golems and can CC lock them where your stuns couldn't). This could also be the slot for the Haste Boost you seek leaving room for other options.

But I digress - unarmed should still be building for WWA.

[Nickodeamous]

@Nick - I appreciate the pressure you put on the Devs to prove that it was a nerf. Hopefully they will raise the floor of the nerf to make it less painful in heroics and have it be less floaty and clunky without haste boost. However the nerf is NOT at the level of no longer taking it, and as numbers have shown, the potential is higher even at slower speeds due to doublestrike on the second attack. I'd give up the extra attack potential to lose the low end clunkiness, but we'll see what the Devs propose. Just pay attention to when u46 gets proposed in Lam, and bring the low end slowness back up there.


I will say I'm still in the camp of Balanced Attacks over Grim Precision. You can easily push 100% fort bypass with gear and Precision. Then Expose Weakness 50% + Jade 25% + Destruction 15% (Deconstructor ftw) is another 90% (that also helps the whole party). 25% more if you go Dark Monk with D>D>D. If in GMoF, you have an option for 200% with Petal and 10% with Piercing Clarity. While I admit that I haven't fully caught up to all of the game balance and mechanic changes in the last few updates, my understanding is that new content has fort set to 3xCR for high fort mobs, which means fort bypass in the 120s would cover most content, with 180s on the absolute high end. So going into a mob with 80ish fort bypass and a Coordinated Strike to pop out a mass Expose Weakness just covered you, and having 90ish will cover any target after debuffs. I just don't see Grim Precision helping outside of the rare dodge mob or if for some reason you can't reach 80+ on bypass. Balanced Attacks, on the other hand, is a free helpless trigger (which is insanely effective on golems and can CC lock them where your stuns couldn't). This could also be the slot for the Haste Boost you seek leaving room for other options.

But I digress - unarmed should still be building for WWA.

I agree, I am keeping WWA now and will bring it back up around U46. Thanks for all of the help over the past few weeks!

Ok, on to Fortification Bypass (I digress as well). haha

Here is what I have:

Family Blessing - 17% insight
Slavers: 28%
Piercing clarity: 10%
Deconstructor: 15%
Part of the Family set: 10%
Precision: 25%

Without grim precision that takes me 105%. I don't use the bird attacks as I just have too many buttons to already press, and not enough AP points (sitting at 87 right now, but I am taking shadow veil, which costs 11 to take, and I pop that often!)

I guess maybe I don't need grim precision. hmmm. interesting philosophy on the stunned contructs with balanced attacks! I actually like that!

Thanks again!
Nico

[DrawingGuy]

The thing is Expose Weakness is 50% fort bypass for the entire party - that is pretty huge. Bird attacks do not interrupt Monk combo sequencing (haven't calculated how it affects DPS), can work at ranged, apply helpless if you invest in them, and can CC. They are also the key to recharging your Deadly Instinct. As much as I love Shadow Veil, the DPS increase of Falconry outweighs it for me. Though luckily when the Shifter race comes out, I have the potential to do a 16 Aasimar / 42 Shintao / 27 Falconry / 11 Ninja Spy (80 base + 13 Racial PL + 2 Racial tome + 1 Uni tome). Though sadly no idea when, and not really a realistic goal or build option for most people.

Can't say much in regards to not wanting more buttons. The complexity of Monk is what makes them so fun to me.

[Ordinary]

Nicko is correct in his assessment, and the twist layout is exactly what I determined on my own as well, at least for max DPS. I go a more defensive route when I solo but he’s right on the money. Also, if you just refuse to change your twists, you can spend some AP in vistani for it. Again, these are options to make the monk not just viable, but better than pre u45. Take the advice, be sub optimal, or switch to something different like you said. No one here is going to take your decisions personally.

My Monk has never been setup for max DPS, but a hybrid best defense/high DPS. He ran in GMOF with the following twists, and some basics (as of U45) are:

Character name: Maetrim
Classes: 20 Monk, 10 Epic
Race: Aasimar · · · · · · ·Alignment: Lawful Good

· · ·Start Tome Final
Str:· · ·8· · 8 · ·23 · · ·HP:· · · ·2288 · · ·AC:· ·201
Dex:· · 13· · 8 · ·63 · · ·PRR: · · · 239
Con:· · 15· · 8 · ·62 · · ·MRR: · · 84/50 · · ·+Healing Amp:· ·305
Int:· · 14· · 8 · ·42 · · ·Dodge: · 45/45 · · ·-Healing Amp:· · ·0
Wis:· · 20· · 8 · 105 · · ·Fort:· · ·284% · · ·Repair Amp:· · · ·0
Cha:· · ·9· · 8 · ·50 · · ·SR:· · · · ·36 · · ·BAB: · · · · · · 15
DR: 10\Epic
Immunities: Disease, Natural Poison, Spawn effects of Undead, Slippery Surfaces, Most Knockdown, Disease, Energy Drain, Magic Missiles, Death effect, Level drain, Fear

Saves:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fortitude:· · · · 101*
· vs Poison:· · · 116*
· vs Disease: · · 102*
Will: · · · · · · 119*
· vs Enchantment: 128*
· vs Illusion:· · 125*
· vs Fear:· · · · 119*
· vs Curse: · · · 119*
Reflex: · · · · · ·98*
· vs Traps: · · · 104*
· vs Spell: · · · 100*
· vs Magic: · · · ·98*
Marked with a * is no fail on a 1 if required DC met

Twists of fate - 35 of 40 Fate points spent.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twist 1 - Tier 4: Fury of the Wild: Sense Weakness
Twist 2 - Tier 3: Shadowdancer: Grim Precision
Twist 3 - Tier 2: Legendary Dreadnought: Improved Combat Expertise
Twist 4 - Tier 1: Unyielding Sentinel: Brace for Impact
Twist 5 - Tier 1: Magister: Impregnable Mind


As a note, he will have all past lives (once I complete Alchemist).

[Monkey_Archer]

For heroic leveling WWA is 100% must have IMO. For epic leveling its quite good but not 100% required. For endgame raiding/high skull I drop it in favor of Monk PL/precision/toughness/epic toughness/deflect arrows.