PDK Vanguard of Helm (U45)

[Komradkillingmachine]

How's Paladin Vanguard compared to Fighter Vanguard since the update? Looking to try one out again just debating on the class.

Pure vs Pure? Paladin wins.

However, if I was dead set on Fighter vanguard I would make one of the two splits - 18ftr/2pal (Divine Might, 20% ST and any race) or 18ftr/1pal/1fvs (Divine Will, 20% ST, aasimar or scourge)

[darknoobslayer]

Pure vs Pure? Paladin wins.

However, if I was dead set on Fighter vanguard I would make one of the two splits - 18ftr/2pal (Divine Might, 20% ST and any race) or 18ftr/1pal/1fvs (Divine Will, 20% ST, aasimar or scourge)

K thanks. Yea I was looking at going pure as the Vanguard capstone seems too good to pass up even after the recent changes.

[palladin9479]

Pure vs Pure? Paladin wins.

However, if I was dead set on Fighter vanguard I would make one of the two splits - 18ftr/2pal (Divine Might, 20% ST and any race) or 18ftr/1pal/1fvs (Divine Will, 20% ST, aasimar or scourge)

Sorry but Fighter wins this, Kensei isn't restricted to weapon types like KoTC is and Fighter gets so many feats that shields become a viable DPS option far earlier. To do shields you need to spend three feats (Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bashing), none of those could for EDF's HP bonus, meaning you need to spend another three feats on a combat style. There will be Tower Shields involved occasionally which is a feat Fighters get for free. Bastard Sword / Dwarven War Axe keep being brought up, both work with the THF line even if using a shield. Neither Bastard Sword nor Dwarven War Axe's are a favored weapon normally and require going Iconic (this case PDK) and then Fighter really wins because you don't need to use a +1 Heart. Basically everything is working against Paladin here.

I've done both 20 Fighter Vanguard and 20 Paladin Vanguard and Fighter is way easier to pull off, the class naturally rolls into a (Bastard Sword / Dwarven Axe / Long Sword / War Hammer / Battle Axe) + Vanguard Shield Basher + Legendary Dreadnought setup that will just walk around smashing everything. Also Axes are a better weapon for shield bash setups due to Headmans Chop working on shields if the main hand weapon is an Axe (Dwarven War Axe / Battle Axe / Hand Axe). So Human (20% Strike Through from a low racial enhancement + WP DWA from free feet) actually ends up working amazingly for this type of setup.

And never I say again NEVER do a split if your doing Vanguard. Paladin and Fighter Vanguard tree's are identical so the exact same reasons apply to why you don't split a fighter if doing Vanguard, the 20 Core defines the entire build.

Now this is in the paladin thread so I'm assuming people want to use Paladin for it, in that case what we would really be doing is building a THF KoTC Paladin at first, and then in the mid heroics when feat slots become open we'd start adding the Shield Mastery line while still using a great sword. Heading into epics we would continue to do this until around 24~27, by then we'd have finished with the required feats and have some decent shield available to us thought we might want to wait until 29 since Paladin can't use most of these.

Wall of Wood W[2D6] (7) and +20% Shield Bashing

Bastion W[2D6] (7) and +20% Shield Bashing

Purple Dragon Shield W[2D6] (7) +20% Shield Bashing + Sov Vorp and some extra damage on bashes

Terminus W[3D10] (16.5) Extra damage, Quality Con and some other stuff. Big bonus here is the huge W dice for stacking with Vanguard.

3/4 of these shields are Tower though so Paladins are stuck with Wall of Wood until 29 when Chuck Norris appears.

[xBunny]

Since shield dmg scales of strength and shield bash stun also, is this reasonable to go str based PDK? Stunning blow also looks nice.
/

[boredman]

Since shield dmg scales of strength and shield bash stun also, is this reasonable to go str based PDK? Stunning blow also looks nice.
/

It would depend if you can fit both str and cha gear to make it work, but going cha based give you more flexibility on the gear (like for example having more slots for Lgs hp set items or energy absorption items or double set items, etc). Is also easier to reach your tactical dc going cha based and for example you can free some twists like legendary tactics and use other twists instead. Anyway if you want to go str based you would still want to have high enough charisma for kotc t5 abilities, saves, Loh, intimidate or diplo, etc. (stunning blow also requires a extra feat on an already tight build)

[xBunny]

It would depend if you can fit both str and cha gear to make it work, but going cha based give you more flexibility on the gear (like for example having more slots for Lgs hp set items or energy absorption items or double set items, etc). Is also easier to reach your tactical dc going cha based and for example you can free some twists like legendary tactics and use other twists instead. Anyway if you want to go str based you would still want to have high enough charisma for kotc t5 abilities, saves, Loh, intimidate or diplo, etc. (stunning blow also requires a extra feat on an already tight build)

Good point. But on cha build looks like u still want load of str to auto stun with your shield, and bash dmg.

[lcollard]

Good point. But on cha build looks like u still want load of str to auto stun with your shield, and bash dmg.

I think that on a Cha build the stun DC of your shield bash is better (correct me if wrong) :
Divine might = 1/2 of cha mod to tactical DC
Cormyrian knight training = 1/3 of cha mod to tactical DC

might be wrong if the Shield bash of Shield champion capstone is not considered as a "tactical feat"