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[Baahb3]

Divine Might should be left as is with Cha to Str or option for the proposed changed and should remain using Turn Undead charges

Totally agree. The Divine Might changes has me developing a bald spot from all the head scratching.

[Stravix]

So Turn Undead Changes that were originally Tier 1 or Tier 2 Enhancements were moved to Tier 4 because a Paladin doesn't receive the ability to Turn Undead until Level 4. This means the Extra Turn Undead Enhancements require you to spend 20 Points in KOTC before you can take those Enhancements...

So basically you only get 4 AP per level so a level 6 Paladin is required to take these Enhancements now...

I don't think this was the intended outcome but I think this was overlooked in he planning. Divine Might should be left as is with Cha to Str or option for the proposed changed and should remain using Turn Undead charges and the Tier 4 Turn Undead should be moved to allow the Paladin to enhance Divine Might uses.

Thank you

I disagree wholeheartedly. First and foremost, T4 KoTC enhancements may be taken as a level 4 paladin, assuming you are at least character level 6. This is a game where multiclassing is a thing, and as such should be considered when changing trees. Secondly, the CHA to STR of Divine Might was completely different to the other trances, and as such should be standardized to them. Also, decoupling DM from turn undead charges allows lvl 2 Pallys to actually use the enhancement, as opposed to waiting until lvl 3 if you multi into another divine class who has it at level 1, or level 4 as a pure pally. Considering the fact that DM is now decoupled from turn undead charges and pally has very little support for turn undeads, the question that is reasonable is that if turn undead charges have to be a tier 4 enhancement or above, are they even worth putting into the tree anymore?

[Havocthedemon]

This is the rub. Others have to plan for multiple things as you put it. Less than optimal weapons. Taking Feats or certain APs spent on enhancements or certain levels of a class to get them.

These immunity removal abilities are not 'multiple things'. It is a one ability covers every scenario that may come up thing, and I think that is bad for the game.

Well let’s think about this here. These immunity breaking abilities aren’t a no cost thing. It’s the capstone (41 aps) which requires 20 levels in sorc or a single race that only works for fire. That is more of a commitment than any melee toon I’ve ever run at cap (you should always have a good augment). Even taking one feat for bypassing adamantine is not 20 levels of sorc or being locked into tiefling.

Now let’s move on from the “immunity breaking is bad” argument because it’s pointless, it’s good for the game and it exists so deal with it. Let’s get to the actual issue within the context of the thread here: is the poison immunity breaking for vile chemist too easy to get?

[Stravix]

Well let’s think about this here. These immunity breaking abilities aren’t a no cost thing. It’s the capstone (41 aps) which requires 20 levels in sorc or a single race that only works for fire. That is more of a commitment than any melee toon I’ve ever run at cap (you should always have a good augment). Even taking one feat for bypassing adamantine is not 20 levels of sorc or being locked into tiefling.

Now let’s move on from the “immunity breaking is bad” argument because it’s pointless, it’s good for the game and it exists so deal with it. Let’s get to the actual issue within the context of the thread here: is the poison immunity breaking for vile chemist too easy to get?

Sorc one is only a t5 ability, not a capstone, btw. 5 levels of sorc and your choice of t5s, while not insignificant by any means, is not on the same level as a lvl 20 capstone

EDIT: I stand correct below. Please disregard!

[Blah2]

Huh what ...

I have a 20 Wizard EK toon that's in epics and I do reaper level content on them all the time, they certainly aren't behind the curve. ....
What it really boils down to is your concentrating on Enchantment and maybe Necromancy if someone is going Pale Master as their secondary tree. Metamagics like Maximize are bad for regular spells, they are only useful on SLA's which we aren't blasting with, in fact if an EK is blasting they are really doing it wrong.

...
Thankfully spell crit isn't very important to no need to pump those up.

Why on earth are you trying to play a EK Wizard like a fire sorc? Like EK makes nuking virtually impossible because it's stances make all spells have touch range. The entire play style of fire sorc and DC wizard don't apply to EK, it's a lot more like assassinate rogue or Swash Bard, the only "caster" stat that become super important is the spellpower because that governs spellswords damage. 7D12 * Spell Power per hit, 11D12 with Eldritch blade active, Eldritch Tempest does lots of force damage that stacks with the spellblade damage and your regular melee damage. And why would they be running in Magister? Normally it's either Draconic Incarnation or Shadow Dancer depending on the specific build.

WRONG WRONG WRONG
You are doing it wrong. First of EK falls off in epics compared to heroics until you get level 29 gear!! Secondly you need decent evocation DC because the CORRECT way to to play EK is ALTERNATING between spell and melee damage. THAT IS THE DESIGN OF THE ENTIRE TREE per the dev Lynabell. Spell crit helps on spell damage and the EK tree gives boost to spell crit.

You are playing it as a below average fighter. Read the descriptions of Force's Point and Force's Edge. If you are not taking and using those in the tree you are losing A LOT of damage!!

[Havocthedemon]

Sorc one is only a t5 ability, not a capstone, btw. 5 levels of sorc and your choice of t5s, while not insignificant by any means, is not on the same level as a lvl 20 capstone

You must have never played a sorc if you think that’s what we are talking about here. No one uses that ability in the way you are describing. That ability is a one time debuff, while it does break the Immunity it is the slowest thing in the world. You don’t play the game as a sorc and use that ability for anything other than on bosses for the extra damage debuff to the element. You don’t go up to a mob, hit that ability on each individual monster than is immune to fire....you would die long before you kill 2 monsters.

The ACTUAL thing that sorcs use is the passive capstone. I’m trying to be nice but it’s clear you don’t have the playtime using these immunity breaking abilities we are actually discussing. I don’t even take that t5 as it’s a waste of AP, you don’t need it.

[Stravix]

You must have never played a sorc if you think that’s what we are talking about here. No one uses that ability in the way you are describing. That ability is a one time debuff, while it does break the Immunity it is the slowest thing in the world. You don’t play the game as a sorc and use that ability for anything other than on bosses for the extra damage debuff to the element. You don’t go up to a mob, hit that ability on each individual monster than is immune to fire....you would die long before you kill 2 monsters.

The ACTUAL thing that sorcs use is the passive capstone. I’m trying to be nice but it’s clear you don’t have the playtime using these immunity breaking abilities we are actually discussing. I don’t even take that t5 as it’s a waste of AP, you don’t need it.

I stand corrected. I overlooked that line in the capstone. I have not played a sorc before as that playstyle does not appeal to me. Please disregard my original post, and I have edited it to reflect this. Thank you.

[Stravix]

WRONG WRONG WRONG
You are doing it wrong. First of EK falls off in epics compared to heroics until you get level 29 gear!! Secondly you need decent evocation DC because the CORRECT way to to play EK is ALTERNATING between spell and melee damage. THAT IS THE DESIGN OF THE ENTIRE TREE per the dev Lynabell. spell crit helps on spell damage and the EK tree gives boost to spell crit.

You areplaying it as a below average fighter. Read the descriptions of Force's Point and Force's Edge. If you are not taking and using those in the tree you are losing A LOT of damage!!

Force point and force edge only require the use of 1 spell every 12 seconds. To say that promotes a true weave of offensive spellcasting and martial combat is plainly false. Enchantment-based wizards only care about DCs and spell pen and as such has some gear slots leftover to grab spellpower for imbues. it works fairly well as a CC damage dealer, almost akin to a bard in concept.

[0ldschool]

sorry tldr;

Will Spring Attack still require Dodge and Mobility feats to acquire? I know that there were suggestions to remove those prerequisites, but do not remember hearing any response. If so, that is too steep a price for many of us feat starved melees, which is ashame for a change that is supposed to help all melees.

[Assassination]

Will Spring Attack still require Dodge and Mobility feats to acquire? I know that there were suggestions to remove those prerequisites, but do not remember hearing any response. If so, that is too steep a price for many of us feat starved melees, which is ashame for a change that is supposed to help all melees.

Oldschool,

I think I have asked this question 3 or 4 times, and there has not been a response. Not sure why they are even making the change to spring attack if they are still requiring the prerequisites.

[palladin9479]

Force point and force edge only require the use of 1 spell every 12 seconds. To say that promotes a true weave of offensive spellcasting and martial combat is plainly false. Enchantment-based wizards only care about DCs and spell pen and as such has some gear slots leftover to grab spellpower for imbues. it works fairly well as a CC damage dealer, almost akin to a bard in concept.

Due to all spells being touch range all EK really casts is either self buffs or AoE CC's like Mass Hold. Only needing enchant and possibly necro DC's really opens slots up for melee gear. For elemental spell power it's usually the off hand, either weapon or orb, that provides the bonus's needed. It's why I think SWF + EK + Wraithform PM to be the most useful of the builds, got really good INT for damage and DC's while also good spellpower. Not needing extra category DC's or spell crits means solid melee gear. Tempest will pretty much wipe an entire group, just it's 30s timer means you gotta use other stuff in between. Twisting in Energy Burst if not in the DI tree helps be the second room clearer. The DI tree itself is full of AoE elemental abilities that benefit from the EK's elemental nature.

Only issue I've ever encountered was fighting mobs that had resistance to **** near everything, without a way to bypass vulnerability you just kinda get screwed. Elemental focus is usually a matter of gear, so having a second set of orbs / +spellpower items for another energy type is useful. Item management really becomes important, it's not just a "wear one set of gear the entire time I play" style like most seem to be stuck in. For a more melee focused build just swap to Shadowdancer and twist in a few things as needed.

[Baahb3]

Well let’s think about this here. These immunity breaking abilities aren’t a no cost thing. It’s the capstone (41 aps) which requires 20 levels in sorc or a single race that only works for fire. That is more of a commitment than any melee toon I’ve ever run at cap (you should always have a good augment). Even taking one feat for bypassing adamantine is not 20 levels of sorc or being locked into tiefling.

You missed where I mention that the 20 levels in one class ability is begrudgingly ok. I am not sure I like it a lot but I can live with that one. And that ability does not give +15% damage after removing that immunity. In fact spells cost 10% more to cast in elemental form.
--Before you jump on that last point, I know SP are not an issue for the most part. My point is there is a penalty for that ability, not a boon like the Tiefling or Chemist is getting.

The Chemist does not have to invest in 20 levels and take it as a capstone. He can get it for a 4 level investment and what 22 APs. Not even in the same realm of what Sorcerers have to spend.

And I even said that putting that into Tiefling was IMO wrong to start this whole discussion.

[0ldschool]

Oldschool,

I think I have asked this question 3 or 4 times, and there has not been a response. Not sure why they are even making the change to spring attack if they are still requiring the prerequisites.

Yeah, that means that they read it and don't care to comment because they aren't changing it. It's much like questions about stealth mechanics, or the IPS nerf. It just is the way they want it to be, and they do not care to engage in conversations with opposing points of view, nor do they wish to explain why they feel that their decision is appropriate. If the new Spring Attack is really good, I suppose that we'll see a lot more Fighters for the extra feats. This is a very negative update for rogues, be it mechanics, assassins, or otherwise. See nerf to Scion of Ethereal sneak attack damage, gotta make sure it's not just Mechanics that get the shaft.

[Jarlos]

1) The Epic Version of the the Candlelight Rune Arm is weaker then the lvl 15 Rune Arm Tira's Splendor

Candlelight Rune Arm

Minimum Level: 23
Light Spirals Max Charge Tier: IV
Rune Arm Imbue: Light III


compared with

Tira's Splendor (lvl 15)

Light Spirals Max Charge Tier: V
Rune Arm Imbue: Light IV

Maybe bring it at least to the same level of Tira's Splendor or better to an lvl 23 item?


2) There is no Epic Version for the Coronach Rune Arm for the Epic Deleras.

Would be a great addition if u can at such an item.

[DRoark]

...SINGLE target damage numbers in our internal tests... the gap between the highest and lowest DPS ranged combat styles
will be drastically reduced and we will be in a good position to move FORWARD...

He IS right though, the gap will be smaller, blanket-nerfing ALL ranged definitely made the gap smaller.

Forward is easy, when you've just run backwards.

[Oxarhamar]

He IS right though, the gap will be smaller, blanket-nerfing ALL ranged definitely made the gap smaller.

Forward is easy, when you've just run backwards.

Why run backwards if you can run forwards?

[Ashlayna]

Why run backwards if you can run forwards?

They ran forwards to 2011 where ranged is concerned. It's going to be back to "if you're not playing x build on an archer, we'll have to carry you" in so far as PuGs go, all for something that is not going to address the main issue that keeps being brought up: "They can kill it before I can close". I guess they'll just have to make it so everyone attacks from melee range to "balance" it, because the nerfs aren't going to address being able to hit it before the melee can, and if everyone swaps to single target dps, instead of trying to kill groups of mobs faster, we're going to have more melee soul stones in quests. Maybe that's what it's going to take though. Let the melee get roflstomped for a year in quests before "well, this wasn't as good an idea as we thought" occurs to the devs. I'll be watching the forums, with popcorn, for the inevitable "we need to lower the difficulty in R10, melee can't survive when the ranged players aren't 'doing their jobs'".

[0ldschool]

He IS right though, the gap will be smaller, blanket-nerfing ALL ranged definitely made the gap smaller.

Forward is easy, when you've just run backwards.

Yep, it's like your company tells you that they're going to change everyone's salaries to bring balance, so instead of a range of $40k to $100k salaries, there will now be a range of $40 to $70k. Congratulations everyone! We are sure that you are all very happy to take part in the new balance!

[0ldschool]

They ran forwards to 2011 where ranged is concerned. It's going to be back to "if you're not playing x build on an archer, we'll have to carry you" in so far as PuGs go, all for something that is not going to address the main issue that keeps being brought up: "They can kill it before I can close". I guess they'll just have to make it so everyone attacks from melee range to "balance" it, because the nerfs aren't going to address being able to hit it before the melee can, and if everyone swaps to single target dps, instead of trying to kill groups of mobs faster, we're going to have more melee soul stones in quests. Maybe that's what it's going to take though. Let the melee get roflstomped for a year in quests before "well, this wasn't as good an idea as we thought" occurs to the devs. I'll be watching the forums, with popcorn, for the inevitable "we need to lower the difficulty in R10, melee can't survive when the ranged players aren't 'doing their jobs'".

This is 100% correct. Nerfing ranged damage to solve the melee survivability problem makes zero sense. It will just cause melees to die faster. It's a certainty that those 'melee can't survive' forum posts are incoming.

I had to laugh this weekend as I was plinking away (slowly) with my GxB Mechanic with what is apparently OP IPS, killing one or two LE trash mobs every 3 or 4 seconds, when a sorc would then come in and incinerate the entire pack of mobs in one blast. If I didn't run fast enough to catch up to them, the next pack of mobs was dead before I even got there. And somehow my Mechanic deserves a 20% nerf on IPS damage. <shakes head...>

[capsela]

This is 100% correct. Nerfing ranged damage to solve the melee survivability problem makes zero sense. It will just cause melees to die faster. It's a certainty that those 'melee can't survive' forum posts are incoming.

I had to laugh this weekend as I was plinking away (slowly) with my GxB Mechanic with what is apparently OP IPS, killing one or two LE trash mobs every 3 or 4 seconds, when a sorc would then come in and incinerate the entire pack of mobs in one blast. If I didn't run fast enough to catch up to them, the next pack of mobs was dead before I even got there. And somehow my Mechanic deserves a 20% nerf on IPS damage. <shakes head...>

Sorcs are glass cannons, your toon isn't. Robes with no evasion = instant death. It's called strengths and weaknesses/trade offs/balance.