Changes Based on Preview 2 Feedback

[Synthetic]

Melee power:

Sanctified fervor procs 25 on a smite. You have plenty of smites and they recharge.
Ascendancy: Bosses that qualify, that's 100% up time. Mass groups of mobs? I don't see an internal cooldown to the stacks.

Optimize your attack rotation and you have 150 melee power from being a pure paladin.

Light damage:

Melee power formula: (100 + MP) / 100. WIth 300, this equals to a multiplier of 4. If it scales with 200%, you double it.

You don't need to tell me that light damage doesn't scale with crits. Also your analysis is misleading in that it "doesn't move the needle". It's an extra 200 average damage a hit with 300 mp, whether you're critting for 1k or 1 million. And 300 mp is not hard to achieve, considering that lower melee power characters have pushed well over 400 bursted.

Haste boost is a twist away.

Yes, fighter gets more boost counts at least. Shrines are abundant.

Twist in smite. Use your other 6 feats to get 12 more MP be at 107MP all the time regardless of your target.

Optimize your attack rotation? I think you mean only pick quests with undead and evil outsiders nothing to do with attack rotation. Maybe you don't understand but 85 of that melee power is only available against undead/evil outsiders.

You are adding in the base but only the melee power gets multiplied so its (300MP * 2 + 100) /100.

Misleading analysis..... Pot kettle. You've argued that fighters using just kensei are weaker than barbarians using FB with twists and filigree. Now you're doing the same with paladins, and your math is screwy in ways that benefit the fighter - i.e. Storms Eye is on average 6 points of damage due to a 50% up-time and being at 25 or 1 depending on how long it's been up. You figured out the equivalent for one cut without issue. Also, greataxe is 20/x3 base so it's 19-20/x6 with improved crit on a FB. FB doesn't get a crit range increase so you don't get another +5 to your crit range multiplier. The comparison is 28.75x vs 29x cause you shouldn't double dip and add extra damage from deadly weapons to both your base damage and then as a modifier on your critical profile if you're doing a line by line comparison.

I heard the first R10 Legendary shroud took two and a half hours and there's 4 shrines. I'm sure the extra 2-3min of haste boost per shrine comes in handy.

It's good that paladins are the best in some situations, barbarians in others, and fighters are strong in all situations just not the strongest in all.

Also, Henshin Mystics are the ones that need some enhancement changes fighters are still strong.

....plus fighters kensie get +10 to all stats so they could hit 86 intelligence and get 3 more damage out of KTA than a paladin can get out of divine might.

[palladin9479]

The reason all those extra action boosts are nice is that you can just keep running a stacked Blitz and get the Prowess bonus every 20s. Kensei gets to just burn Haste Boosts whenever it wants without any care in the world, that's a huge damage bump. Everyone else has to use a T3 twist slot, which isn't a small thing, and portion out their Haste Boosts to last the entire time. Not a big deal for short quests, big issue in quests with lots of battles in between shrines if there even are any in the first place.

Overall KoTC got a small bump in power during legendary content. It got a big bump right around 20, which is likely what the devs were using to model it.

I was really hoping they would of made Smite more useful then just a +2/+2 attack that burns charges. +2/+2 is something you put on a 6~12s timer, Exposing Strike for example is on a 6s and does +1/+1 and a bunch of other stuff. If we're burning charges it should of been a "damage scales with 200% melee power" or at least +3/+3.

[Cetus]

Melee power is doubled not the total damage.

1 + [(Multiplier) * (Melee Power/100)]

So if you had 200 melee power, double that to 400 melee power.

1 + (400/100) = 5.0

Not

2 * (1 + 200/100) = 6.0

Have you tested this? I'd be curious. Regardless, my point remains exactly the same whether it's your calculation or mine.

All those melee power boosts are temporary for X seconds get Y melee power, you won't be running around with 300+ melee power, especially if your in Divine Crusader. Before it was about 160~180 depending on reaper points / items / filigree, now it'll be about 190~225.

Where the hell are you getting divine crusader from?

And yes, I will be running around with 300+ melee power. I was standing with a 302? kobold testing outside of reaper on lamannia. Please do the calculation before saying this.

They took 17~25 base damage away with the Divine Might nerf

Huh? If I had an 80 charisma, that's a 35 modifier, subtract 10 for not stacking with insightful strength. 25 strength = 12-13*1.5 = 20 points of net damage on a two-hander.

Now it's the same 35 modifier minus 8 from insightful deadly on legendary hammerfist, that's 27 damage.

Dead wrong there. Again.

Smites are still trash abilities and largely a waste of AP as

lmao. I'm baffled at this.

[Cetus]

Twist in smite. Use your other 6 feats to get 12 more MP be at 107MP all the time regardless of your target.

Twisting smites is not a possibility, as the melee power depends on religious lore feats. Obviously paladin will maintain that a lot better.

Feats: And ignore the fighter tactic and PRR/MRR bonuses? Maybe that's how you'd build it, but let me tell you: that's wrong.

Optimize your attack rotation? I think you mean only pick quests with undead and evil outsiders nothing to do with attack rotation. Maybe you don't understand but 85 of that melee power is only available against undead/evil outsiders.

Maybe you don't know how to read?

You are adding in the base but only the melee power gets multiplied so its (300MP * 2 + 100) /100.

Likely miscalculated the melee power scal. Doesn't change the conclusion.

Misleading analysis..... Pot kettle. You've argued that fighters using just kensei are weaker than barbarians using FB with twists and filigree.

Shattered device filigree is likely to remain common to both. The twists do not even *begin* to counteract the difference. Another moot point.

Now you're doing the same with paladins, and your math is screwy in ways that benefit the fighter - i.e. Storms Eye is on average 6 points of damage due to a 50% up-time and being at 25 or 1 depending on how long it's been up. You figured out the equivalent for one cut without issue. Also, greataxe is 20/x3 base so it's 19-20/x6 with improved crit on a FB. FB doesn't get a crit range increase so you don't get another +5 to your crit range multiplier.

You are completely correct here. That's what happens when you quickly write a detail oriented post while on-call at work lol

Barb profile: 2-18x , 19-20 x6. Total is 17x + 12x = 29x.
Fighter profile: 2-17x, 18-20 x4 = 28x
fighter profile one cut: 31x
Fighter averaged: 28.75

. The comparison is 28.75x vs 29x

Yes.

I heard the first R10 Legendary shroud took two and a half hours and there's 4 shrines. I'm sure the extra 2-3min of haste boost per shrine comes in handy.

LMAO, ok there...we're reaching for an R10 legendary shroud to force in the point that the boosts are better. Definitely a serious advantage to consider.

It's good that paladins are the best in some situations, barbarians in others, and fighters are strong in all situations just not the strongest in all.

Wrong. This is the reality: Paladins are strongest in some situations. Barbarians are the strongest in the rest. Kensei literally has no place with barbs and pally's being the way they are.

....plus fighters kensie get +10 to all stats so they could hit 86 intelligence and get 3 more damage out of KTA than a paladin can get out of divine might.

Paladin will not obtain KTA. Paladin will use DM.

[A-O]

Huh? If I had an 80 charisma, that's a 35 modifier, subtract 10 for not stacking with insightful strength. 25 strength = 12-13*1.5 = 20 points of net damage on a two-hander.

Now it's the same 35 modifier minus 8 from insightful deadly on legendary hammerfist, that's 27 damage.

Dead wrong there. Again.

I have no horse in this, but you're wrong in a few things here. It gave (and now gives) half of cha modifier to dmg (or strength before). Not full modifier to dmg. The new ability modifier on THF is also 300%, so it'd be *3, not *1.5. But that's a new change so.

Still, old system

1 cha = 1/2 = 0.5/2 = 0.25*1.5=0.375 dmg per cha. For a 2h. Non stacking with ins str.

New system is
1 cha = 1/2=0.5/2 =0.25 dmg per cha. Non-stacking with ins dmg.

Thus, the more cha, the worse the new DM is.

[Cetus]

The reason all those extra action boosts are nice is that you can just keep running a stacked Blitz and get the Prowess bonus every 20s. Kensei gets to just burn Haste Boosts whenever it wants without any care in the world, that's a huge damage bump. Everyone else has to use a T3 twist slot, which isn't a small thing, and portion out their Haste Boosts to last the entire time. Not a big deal for short quests, big issue in quests with lots of battles in between shrines if there even are any in the first place.

Overall KoTC got a small bump in power during legendary content. It got a big bump right around 20, which is likely what the devs were using to model it.

I was really hoping they would of made Smite more useful then just a +2/+2 attack that burns charges. +2/+2 is something you put on a 6~12s timer, Exposing Strike for example is on a 6s and does +1/+1 and a bunch of other stuff. If we're burning charges it should of been a "damage scales with 200% melee power" or at least +3/+3.

Fury is the preferred destiny for a THF. Not LD.

[palladin9479]

Your doing bad math as demonstrated before.

Yes that's been tested, it says it in the description. Scales with 200% melee power not 200% damage. All those abilities work that way.

No you had 302 melee power after building up a full stack of blitz in a dojo and poping all your abilities.

Before
80 Cha = +35 Insightful Strength * 0.5 = +17.5 * 1.5 = +26.25 damage. +10 Insightful Strength was never used as it's not part of any set and didn't provide anything.

Now
80 Cha = +35 Bonus * 0.5 = +17.5 insightful deadly, we already had 8 of it on a slot we're not changing (Family Blessing) so just +9.5 damage.

That's a loss of 16 base damage and the loss of the eye slot for a stat we didn't need before. The better your build the more damage you lose out on.

Like I said, the Divine Might nerf hurt alot for 29+ DPS Paladin builds.

Two steps forward, one step back is a very accurate statement.

[A-O]

You are completely correct here. That's what happens when you quickly write a detail oriented post while on-call at work lol

Barb profile: 2-18x , 19-20 x6. Total is 17x + 12x = 29x.
Fighter profile: 2-17x, 18-20 x4 = 28x
fighter profile one cut: 31x
Fighter averaged: 28.75


Paladin will not obtain KTA. Paladin will use DM.

It should be 2-18x1, 19-20x8, total 33
2-17x1, 18x4, 19-20x6 = 32
One cut, 35
average 32.75

Or 0.007 better profile for barb.

And he meant that a fighter will have more int than a pala has cha, so better gains from KTA than pala gets from DM.

[palladin9479]

Fury is the preferred destiny for a THF. Not LD.

And that explains a lot about why your math is so bad.

[LurkingVeteran]

It's nice with some variety on the DDO forums for once. This thread has both people QQing about the new Paladin being too weak, and people QQing about it being too strong.

At least try to be objective people. You can't count sentient weapon procs as part of the paladin tree, and no undead and evil outsiders aren't everywhere, but the tree isn't too far off from where it should be. As for which direction, it's hard to tell. As for the math, I think sneak attack 150% MP scaling actually used to be a straight x1.5 damage factor (haven't tested recently), but not everything scales like this so it would have to be tested I guess.

[palladin9479]

It's nice with some variety on the DDO forums for once. This thread has both people QQing about the new Paladin being too weak, and people QQing about it being too strong.

At least try to be objective people. You can't count sentient weapon procs as part of the paladin tree, and no undead and evil outsiders aren't everywhere, but the tree isn't too far off from where it should be. As for which direction, it's hard to tell. As for the math, I think sneak attack 150% MP scaling actually used to be a straight x1.5 damage factor (haven't tested recently), but not everything scales like this so it would have to be tested I guess.

Well the big differences are which difficulty someone's looking at. In heroics Paladin actually got a nice buff, low to mid epics it's also pretty solid. It's only when we reach legendary where it starts to slip again and that's due to everything not scaling up well. Like it's +melee power spell has a MCL of ... 15 instead of 25. The light dice are only 7D6 which is far too weak to mean anything at higher levels, they should of take a page from EK and had the dice upgrade at core 12(d8)/18(d10)/20(d12).

So far the "best" Paladin build I've seen is 14 Cleric 5 Barb 1 fighter. Gets +1 range + 2 multi for crits, haste boost, extra AB's and better tactics, better heals and better buffs.

They haven't done anything to make KoTC stand out from the rest. I was hoping they would do something with exalted smite because it was just bad, so much AP investment for so little. All they've done was reduce the AP investment from 10 to 8 but not increase the effectiveness. Exalted smite needs to either be much stronger or just 3 AP.

[Cetus]

I have no horse in this, but you're wrong in a few things here. It gave (and now gives) half of cha modifier to dmg (or strength before). Not full modifier to dmg. The new ability modifier on THF is also 300%, so it'd be *3, not *1.5. But that's a new change so.

Still, old system

1 cha = 1/2 = 0.5/2 = 0.25*1.5=0.375 dmg per cha. For a 2h. Non stacking with ins str.

New system is
1 cha = 1/2=0.5/2 =0.25 dmg per cha. Non-stacking with ins dmg.

Thus, the more cha, the worse the new DM is.

I totally butchered that calc...symptom of exhaustion I suppose.

Lets do this again...

Old DM 80 cha gives 35 strength. That's 17 modifiers.

New DM 80 cha gives 35 modifiers, 1/2 of which contribute to damage. Same 17.

With the former, those 17 were multiplied by 1.5, providing a 26point damage bonus. However, subtract the +9 ins str you had on goggles. So you actually netted a 19 damage bonus.

With the latter, those 17 points of damage are not stacking with 8 insightful, so it's a net of 9 damage.

We are not counting the new ability modifier of THF, as that is not relevant to the comparison given that the two changes occurred concomitantly.

[Cetus]

Your doing bad math as demonstrated before.

Yes that's been tested, it says it in the description. Scales with 200% melee power not 200% damage. All those abilities work that way.

No you had 302 melee power after building up a full stack of blitz in a dojo and poping all your abilities.

Sigh...wrong. Add up all the melee power. I'm not doing it.

+10 Insightful Strength was never used as it's not part of any set and didn't provide anything.

+9 was on used on goggles, stated 10 for simplicity.

[Cetus]

And that explains a lot about why your math is so bad.

Very perceptive

[Cetus]

Well the big differences are which difficulty someone's looking at. In heroics Paladin actually got a nice buff, low to mid epics it's also pretty solid. It's only when we reach legendary where it starts to slip again and that's due to everything not scaling up well. Like it's +melee power spell has a MCL of ... 15 instead of 25. The light dice are only 7D6 which is far too weak to mean anything at higher levels, they should of take a page from EK and had the dice upgrade at core 12(d8)/18(d10)/20(d12).

So far the "best" Paladin build I've seen is 14 Cleric 5 Barb 1 fighter. Gets +1 range + 2 multi for crits, haste boost, extra AB's and better tactics, better heals and better buffs.

They haven't done anything to make KoTC stand out from the rest. I was hoping they would do something with exalted smite because it was just bad, so much AP investment for so little. All they've done was reduce the AP investment from 10 to 8 but not increase the effectiveness. Exalted smite needs to either be much stronger or just 3 AP.

This is a load of nonsense. Likely intentional to underestimate the effect of pally.

Pally's are getting a 150 melee power bonus against evil or undead targets and swinging smite. Do you know how much **** we fight that fits under that category at endgame? We're not talking plants here...

And holy retribution? Holy sword? Cleaves with high [W]'s? Zeal? Extra strikethrough over fighter, (which never should have been the case)

Just stop it. They received too much and you know it.

[HungarianRhapsody]

This is a load of nonsense. Likely intentional to underestimate the effect of pally.

Pally's are getting a 150 melee power bonus against evil or undead targets and swinging smite. Do you know how much **** we fight that fits under that category at endgame? We're not talking plants here...

And holy retribution? Holy sword? Cleaves with high [W]'s? Zeal? Extra strikethrough over fighter, (which never should have been the case)

Just stop it. They received too much and you know it.

I keep seeing people say that well built and well played melee can do just fine even today in U44. With the new changes, they'll be even better.

...but since there are *maybe* half a dozen "well built and well played" melee per server and the rest of us are struggling, I don't think Paladin received too much. Kensai is lagging behind the rest at the moment, but that's a problem with Kensai, not Paladin.

[Captain_Wizbang]

They haven't done anything to make KoTC stand out from the rest.

This is a load of nonsense. Likely intentional to underestimate the effect of pally.

Pally's are getting a 150 melee power bonus against evil or undead targets and swinging smite. Do you know how much **** we fight that fits under that category at endgame? We're not talking plants here...

And holy retribution? Holy sword? Cleaves with high [W]'s? Zeal? Extra strikethrough over fighter, (which never should have been the case)

Just stop it. They received too much and you know it.

Hey pally person, Ever stop to think the changes are partially geared towards U45? (Catacombs & Delara's?). Your math and evaluations aren't adding up and/or are being misinterpreted.

Cetus is correct. Especially w/ the reference to fighter getting the shaft.

Gave out too much rep cetus, +1

[Ballrus]

...Kensai is lagging behind the rest at the moment, but that's a problem with Kensai...

Exactly this.
And expect Kensei special attacks not working with ST.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

Very perceptive

I wouldn't put much stock in what that Paladin guy is talking about. He think Cleaves (on live) have no value for Barb's and Fighter THF apart from Momentum Swing and Supreme Cleave (for Barb's).

[capsela]

There's 14 soon to be 15 classes in the game that can melee. But we only need to buff fighter because pali, barbs are completely OP now. Makes sense to me. Yeah, buff fighter so it's OP, too. Don't worry about the other 12 classes which can also melee. Those other 12 classes are supposed to be terrible.