Changes Based on Preview 2 Feedback

[Kinerd]

Characters no longer require the feat "Two Handed Fighting" in order to be able to Strikethrough while moving.

generally happier with the THF iterations and this is an aside but fwiw i 100% would have stuck to my guns on this because you were right about it. good thing i'm not in charge

also want to chime in with the others asking if other cleaves such as the eldritch knight cleaves CAN doublestrike but are NOT affected by attack speed. that seems to be the only way to read the notes but it's odd

[Alcides]

[*][*]New Paladin Spell: Righteous Command: +1 Morale bonus to Melee and Ranged Power per caster level, max caster level 15.

Is there a particular reason max caster level of 15 was chosen instead of maximum caster level instead?

[Reesi]

Did you mean to say "Improved and Greater Two Handed Fighting" instead of "Improved and Greater Single Weapon Fighting" in the above comment?

Is the damage multiplier of Hand and a Half Weapons for Two Handed Fighting plus Improved Two Handed Fighting 1.35x or 1.45x?

Is the damage multiplier of Hand and a Half Weapons for Two Handed Fighting plus Improved Two Handed Fighting plus Greater Two Handed Fighting 1.6x or 1.7x or 2.05x?

I would expect the benefits of SWF stack with SWF style and THF gains the highest value mentioned as it says "improves [weapon] to " indicating a replacement.

1.5 weapon
SWF - 1.1 attribute
ISWF 1.35
GSWF - 1.6

THF - 1.1
ITHF 1.35
GTHF - 1.6

You cannot be SWF and THF simultaneously, because one is the anti-requisite of the other.

[xTethx]

Is there a particular reason max caster level of 15 was chosen instead of maximum caster level instead?

Because near almost all mid level spells cap at caster level 15.

[CeltEireson]

(Note: You will likely notice that these lists do not contain any further Ranged Style changes despite the large amount of feedback about the Archer's Focus/Improved Precise Shot dynamic that was available in preview 2. For the time being we are comfortable with where Ranged has landed. It is possible that we will revisit that in the future but we'd like to see how players adjust to the new dynamic before considering pulling back on the Archer's Focus movement restriction in the ways suggested in the Ranged thread.)

You couldnt drop the initial wait state on archers focus down even slightly? To say 1.5 or even 2 seconds? No issue with the rest of it but that initial delay of 3 seconds make it difficult to get your charges going.

[DRoark]

Too bad this didn't go up yesterday, so I could cancel my sub effective this month, instead of paying until May so that my feedback could be swept under the rug
as "we're comfortable with where ranged is" and "well, we'll look at it again down the road".... Is that the same down the road for Inquisitive being OP, you know, a year later? In a couple of years?

....Some of your players don't want to be pigeonholed into specific builds to be able to perform. Since the bulk of the "fixes" are aimed at toons that are either Ranger, or have feats to spare for SotR,
you have effectively sealed out builds...

This. ^

Non-INQ ranged took a disproportionate hit, changing a decade-old feat with no alternate ideas, builds tested, or an actual explaination (data).
We're no longer subbing until this is actually fixed. If it never gets changed back, well... we'll be ordering more pizza instead.

It is possible that we will revisit that in the future but we'd like to see how players adjust to the new dynamic before considering pulling back on the Archer's Focus
movement restriction in the ways suggested in the Ranged thread.)

Translation: "We know we nerfed IPS after a decade, but yeah, we're going to let the dumpster burn forever and not mention it."

[pelaaja]

It was clear that we had undershot the THF overhaul in a couple of areas.
Changes from Preview 2

• Characters no longer require the feat "Two Handed Fighting" in order to be able to Strikethrough while moving.
• The cap on Strikethrough targets is now 5 (at 400%).
• The THF feat now grants 60% Strikethrough.
• The ITHF feat now grants 30% Strikethrough.
• The GTHF feat now grants 30% Strikethrough.
• The PTHF feat now grants 30% Strikethrough.
• The PTHF feat now functions properly if you don't have the full 3-feat THF line.

Much better now, thank you.

Will there be other ways to gain Strikethrough, like through items or so? If not, I'd say to increase the values to 80/40/40/40 instead and buff the numbers in enhancements to 10/20/30%.
If there will be some other way to increase them at some point though (to even try to reach the cap) then I think those numbers are fine.

[Nickodeamous]

On a max life monk whirlwind on live is a dps loss.

What?! Can a dev comment on this? This cant be another monk nerf can it? Is there a side by side pre ans post u45 that shows exacly how wwa would work for a monk specifically.

Thanks,
Nico

[HungarianRhapsody]

What?! Can a dev comment on this? This cant be another monk nerf can it? Is there a side by side pre ans post u45 that shows exacly how wwa would work for a monk specifically.

Thanks,
Nico

The person you quoted was saying that currently (pre-45) doing Whirlwind Attack is a DPS loss because Whirlwind Attack currently (pre-45) does not benefit from a variety of effects that you're going to get on a big beefy Monk with all the trimmings.

These new changes would be a significant improvement over what Cleave/WW Attack/etc are today.

[Steelstar]

also want to chime in with the others asking if other cleaves such as the eldritch knight cleaves CAN doublestrike but are NOT affected by attack speed. that seems to be the only way to read the notes but it's odd

It is very likely that it can now Doublestrike. What we changed on a systematic level there impacted a number of skills that use the specific detects the mentioned Feats use. I'd have to go check to be certain, and I am not in the office.

The attack speed is a specific thing added to the listed Feats & Enhancements only. We can add it to specific skills, and may add it to more on a case-by-case basis in the future.

[kelavas]

Are there any changes coming to Fury of the Wild with Malicious Weapons / Wild Weapons for 5/10/20 each, or is this staying at 1/3/5%

[Soleran100]

There are a lot more things immune to poison than are immune to elements. Without an immune breaker VC is all but useless in a lot of content. Plus EK can always swap out their Spellsword element on the fly whenever they encounter an immune or high resistance mob. VC doesn't get that luxury.

Plus 1 and this is a YUGE nerf, if you have to use wave you are not in a position to IPS (which was already nerfed,) a 6-second cd shot to break immunity is going to make this class a 6 class split at best vs going 20.

[DRoark]

I get that you guys want to push the update out, but you just dropped a list of massive meta-adjusting changes
that shouldn't go live without players being able to test them and provide feedback. Please strongly consider having a third preview.

That's what we're for. Having to deal with huge changes to our ranged builds, because they can't post a single build they tested, so we can duplicate it
and offer constructive feedback. Then they fluff it off as "we're happy with... yadda yadda".

[SirValentine]

I got home from work today, saw new dev posts in one of the threads (Named Loot) that I wanted to give feedback on, but thread is closed. Does it really make sense to close threads the very same day active discussion is still happening in them?

[Avocado]

[*][*]Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, KOTC's Cleave enhancements, Smite Evil, and Exalted Smite are now affected by your attack speed.

Cleaves used to bypass slow attack speed for Avatar of Nature builds, that was fixed. I dont know if cleaves still bypass attack speed if you are not in AON form. I assume yes. So what does this change do exactly? Will people with 15% attack speed see any change in cleave animation speed, will people with haste boost now see a 30% faster animation? Where does the default lie with swing speed?

[Nickodeamous]

The person you quoted was saying that currently (pre-45) doing Whirlwind Attack is a DPS loss because Whirlwind Attack currently (pre-45) does not benefit from a variety of effects that you're going to get on a big beefy Monk with all the trimmings.

These new changes would be a significant improvement over what Cleave/WW Attack/etc are today.

Oh!!! Thank you for explaining!! I really appreciate it. that actually sounds good!
Nico

[Fauxknight]

I do like the new changes. Hand and a half seems to have been particularly covered well...but:

[*][*][*]Bears now update their Ability Score Modifier to Damage while using a Two Handed Weapon to 2.0/2.5/3.0 when they take Natural Weapon Fighting their first, second, and third time respectively.

I wasn't aware many bears were using two handed weapons, their tree specifically attempts to limit them to using shields...and they do get glancing blows whilst doing so. There doesn't seem to be any consideration for bears actually fighting as the bear tree seems to intend for them to fight.

Normal bear fighting (with a shield, but getting glancing) is pretty much identical to hand and a half fighting, giving them the same treatment would seem in line.

[palladin9479]

It is very likely that it can now Doublestrike. What we changed on a systematic level there impacted a number of skills that use the specific detects the mentioned Feats use. I'd have to go check to be certain, and I am not in the office.

The attack speed is a specific thing added to the listed Feats & Enhancements only. We can add it to specific skills, and may add it to more on a case-by-case basis in the future.

Was the speed animation applied to Momentum Swing / Lay Waste? Those weren't mentioned but I think they are "Cleave" attacks.

Several have asked why the CL15 on the Paladin spell?

[Quikster]

What?! Can a dev comment on this? This cant be another monk nerf can it? Is there a side by side pre ans post u45 that shows exacly how wwa would work for a monk specifically.

Thanks,
Nico

The person you quoted was saying that currently (pre-45) doing Whirlwind Attack is a DPS loss because Whirlwind Attack currently (pre-45) does not benefit from a variety of effects that you're going to get on a big beefy Monk with all the trimmings.

These new changes would be a significant improvement over what Cleave/WW Attack/etc are today.

Oh!!! Thank you for explaining!! I really appreciate it. that actually sounds good!
Nico

Yes, sorry I was not more clear. I was responding to someone who stated monks would be OP with the changes outlined in the original few posts, and that they are in a good place currently with WWA.

I argue this is certainly not the case. While monks my get more DPS out of WWA than other classes, it is most definitely a DPS LOSS for a maxed out monk to use WWA. This may be true with monks with lesser amounts of pl, I did not test that. While WWA on a monk has a few specific instances that it is a DPS GAIN, overall those specific few instances do not outweigh the loss.

That said, WWA on a monk is super fun, and if you aren't worried about maxing out DPS it's a good investment because it is fun. Too bad we don't have more abilities that are slightly behind but close enough that people take them because...fun.

Sorry for the scare

[Monkey_Archer]

It was clear that we had undershot the THF overhaul in a couple of areas.

• We undershot (and backloaded) the Strikethrough values so that it wasn't fun to hit 1 maybe 2 enemies until high level where you would then hit 2 maybe 3 enemies.
• The ripple effect of losing Glancing Blows was felt heavily for Hand and a Half wielders and Bears.

In order to address those issues we have implemented the following changes internally. These are designed to both boost the total Strikethrough that players will end up with as well as frontload it so that it starts feeling good at lower levels. In addition, we have implemented some changes to make up for the loss of Glancing Blows to both Hand and a Half Wielders as well as Bears.

First, thank you for responding to feedback. Good to know that most of the main issues have been addressed. In total this is definitely a large buff for most THFs builds now. (possibly too large) I'm still disappointed that nothing was done to address the (now much larger) gap between THF crit builds and THF effects builds though... was hoping to try quarterstaff alchemist... oh well... I, for one, welcome our new barbarian overlords.