U45 Preview 2: Ranged Combat Changes

[Komradkillingmachine]

[*][*]Endless Fusillade and No Holds Barred now play a Reload animation on activation before the effect starts. (This is shorter than the previous activation animation this skill had, though it now plays consistently).

This change is objectively the worst nerf to all crossbow builds imaginable.
It's 3 WHOLE SECONDS!!!
In a fast past combat inside a dungeon 3 seconds is a matter of life and death, It's non-intuitive, throws off combos for a whole bunch of special abilities, halts all DPS and impossible to play with AT ALL.
Please consider lowering the animation delay to 1 second at most.

[NyteSlayer]

i1 if u are trying to tank with a ranged ranger then u dont need to live ,ranged ranger is a mobile charterer ,ifu are in the face of a mob then u are very stupid if u are playing a ranged ranger,
2 ranged ranger using a longbow,shortbow stands back an releases arrows from a distance an must be mobile enough to do that ,hunch no hvy armor of med armor
3 ranged rangers kite an are made to be mobile
4 the longbow an short bow are way to slow an are by far more accurate than any crossbow an takes less time to reload than any crossbow ,at least
in real life
5 cross bow are less accurate than any long bow or short bow an should have a range decrease put on them along with repeating crossbows
i hope some ppl learn to play ranged rangers better for 1 i an still learning myself
i hope the makers of this game relises what needs to be done to help rangers maybe better ,diff types of bow in stead of just 2 ,compond bow would be great if it had better than 1d8 base damge an short bow 1d6 an longbow 1d8 i am sure the devs will work something out to help the short bow an long bow out ,tyvm

[NyteSlayer]

i1 if u are trying to tank with a ranged ranger then u dont need to live ,ranged ranger is a mobile charterer ,ifu are in the face of a mob then u are very stupid if u are playing a ranged ranger,
2 ranged ranger using a longbow,shortbow stands back an releases arrows from a distance an must be mobile enough to do that ,hunch no hvy armor of med armor
3 ranged rangers kite an are made to be mobile
4 the longbow an short bow are way to slow an are by far more accurate than any crossbow an takes less time to reload than any crossbow ,at least
in real life
5 cross bow are less accurate than any long bow or short bow an should have a range decrease put on them along with repeating crossbows
i hope some ppl learn to play ranged rangers better for 1 i an still learning myself
i hope the makers of this game relises what needs to be done to help rangers maybe better ,diff types of bow in stead of just 2 ,compond bow would be great if it had better than 1d8 base damge an short bow 1d6 an longbow 1d8 i am sure the devs will work something out to help the short bow an long bow out ,tyvm

[Loholt-UK]

I find it hilarious you raging ranged users are disingenuously keeping IPS on during your boss DPS tests just so you can make the nerfs seem worse than they really are.

I find it hilarious that you don't understand what testing means. How are we meant to gauge the DPS loss to IPS without using IPS? I'll wait.

[capsela]

I find it hilarious that you don't understand what testing means. How are we meant to gauge the DPS loss to IPS without using IPS? I'll wait.

Well, you won't be leaving it on when fighting bosses now will you? That was the point of the whole change to make it so players are forced to move stances. But, please do continue if you like.

[xBunny]

Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Improved Archer's Focus now also adds 10% Insight Bonus to Ranged Alacrity with Longbows and Shortbows when you have Archer's Focus active.

Would be great if Improved Archer's Focus would just give 10% alacrity without Archer's Focus stance. I know this sounds not logical, but this 10% could be moved into another T5 enchantment than like Strikes Like Lightning mby. This would boost Archers somehow. Because both fixes listed below would just compensate 20% loss from AOE, but not boost archers much beyond they are now.

Base animation speed for Shortbow and Longbow attacks have been increased by 13%.
The Feat "Shot on the Run" now grants a 10% Alacrity bonus to Shortbows and Longbows

[Ashlayna]

I find it hilarious you raging ranged users are disingenuously keeping IPS on during your boss DPS tests just so you can make the nerfs seem worse than they really are.

And then resorting to calling out casters AOE as needing nerfs too.

Casters are called ranged, but we really aren't. At least half of all our most damaging spells/slas are melee range or short cone range attacks. So unless we want to throw out half of our spells, we have to dance close to mobs in R10.

Ranged don't need to do that! Casters need to be about a thousand times closer than ranged needs to get. Ranged can be on the moon shooting mobs on earth. We have to be within 5 feet of a mob in many cases. 5ft vs 500ft! It's a night and day difference.

Interesting dichotomy of inferences here. On the one hand, you call out players for testing a nerf in a situation where the fight will be long enough to actually generate any useable data, and on the other you resort to hyperbole to justify "leave my caster alone". It is not disingenuous to test IPS with IPS on, it's impossible to test it w/out it.

[Renvar]

This is precisely why we had redesigned Archer's Focus for preview 1. We believed this to be true internally and thus threw out the idea of standing still being the negative and replaced it with needing to focus down each enemy individually.

We got player feedback indicating that a large chunk of people were using the stand still implementation of Archer's Focus already and that the focus down a single target restriction was worse thus us going back to the old version and increasing it's damage.

It's entirely possible we still haven't found the correct balance on the risk/reward spectrum. We'll be reviewing feedback as it comes in, as we did with preview 1. Just know that we won't be replacing Archer's Focus with an ability with no risk associated with large dps reward.

From my perspective, I see the following:

AF (stand Still version) pros - Stacks decay when you move, over time.
AF (stand Still verison) cons - You gotta stand still to have them build up.

AF (single target version) pros - you can move as much as you want.
AF (single target version) cons - when you change targets you lose ALL the stacks immediately. Given the wonky targeting system, it is quite often that this occurs regularly by accident, without intent by the player.

I think the Single Target version is better, but you should have the stacks lose ALL when targets change. I would rather see something like this:

1st Target of a mob - 3 seconds before a stack adds. Stacks add on damage every .5 seconds as long as you target the same mob. Switching to a different mob costs you 5 stacks and restarts the 3 second timer before stacks accrue again. Stacks decay at 1 per 3 seconds when not attacking or when manyshot is on.

That would mean that if you were dealing with trash, you could maintain some stacks but if you are mowing things down and changing targets regularly, then you can't really build up and maintain a lot of stacks.

It's a nice middle ground that is more forgiving of targeting issues and allows for some benefits to trash clearing using AF instead of IPS. But not as much benefit.

Or find some other way to address the "change mobs, even accidentally, and all stacks are gone" issue. Because that's the biggest problem with the U45 preview 1 version. Otherwise, I thought it was a better solution to "have to stand still".

[HungarianRhapsody]

Could we maybe have Shot On The Run let Archers Focus stacks continue to build while moving? Neither version of Archers Focus is particularly good as written. Both will only build significant stacks against raid bosses most of the time

[CeltEireson]

Played around with Archer's focus and have a few comments:

The extra DPS is significant - if you can built up enough charges, and that's a fairly big if.

With small numbers of mobs you can't really charge it enough to get a significant level to effect your DPS that much or to last to the next set of mobs, partly because by the time the 3 second initial timer has expired you may well have killed one or two already (even if solo, much more likely in a group) and the ability wont start charging until then.

With a large number of mobs you have more potential to get significant charges but (a) you are much more likely to need to move a lot with a large number of mobs thus stopping you from building up the charges and (b) with a large number you are much more likely to use IPS as its much more efficient even with the changes, especially when soloing.

Significant variation in how useful it is between quests - quests with large open areas, or long corridors work better simply because you can pause, wait for the 3 sec timer to elapse and then start firing at a significant distance giving you time to build up charges, quests where its room after room are much more difficult - you have to enter the room to be able to target very often and the distance is so small that there's no time to build charges before being forced to move. Whilst ranged characters do have some abilities to slow or hold mobs its generally not sufficient to keep mobs at a distance to allow you to fire while standing still unless of course you are using IPS so you can slow/paralyse more than one mob at a time.

Its likely to be much more useful in a group as others can take the mobs focus away from you (or cast hold on them) allowing you to stand still and attack, soloing on the other hand makes it much harder to gain charges and keep them.

And contrary to what I originally thought it is less useful against ranged mobs in many ways - whilst, in theory, you can stand still to attack them the usual method of avoiding ranged damage is to physically dodge it so standing still is basically making yourself an easy target unless you have sufficient AC/Dodge/incorporeality to minimise the damage from ranged attacks.

Overall the concept is workable but I think you need to look at the numbers involved in archers focus, not so much the damage element which I think is fine but the time values - particularly that first timer, personally I'd like to see it halved.

[capsela]

How about an anti-ranged Reaper? Enclosed by an arrow/bolt resistant shield this reaper can only be damaged by melee damage! That would be interesting. Melee are forced to pull out a bow and attack perched ranged mobs occasionally why not the other way around? Casters already lay down their scepters and pull melee weapons with resistant constructs as well.

[Renvar]

If the goal of the bow changes is to have Bow characters be:

Good at Crowd Control on trash using AA and IPS
Weak at trash clearing through DPS because IPS is nerfed and AF does not add value
Good at Boss/High HP single target DPS through AF and additional RoF/Alacrity bumps

Then these changes move you in that direction.

I think the concern is that this play style only functions in 4+ man group and raids with other complimentary builds performing other required party functions, like killing trash mobs, healing, and tanking.

If you want a more versatile build, specifically in the area of clearing trash mobs through DPS without support from other characters, then bows are still lacking. Which differs from other ranged options, which have been generally good at clearing trash mobs independently. To be fair, other ranged options generally are weaker on CC performance on trash mobs, compared to Bows. So there is some trade off.

[Ashlayna]

How about an anti-ranged Reaper? Enclosed by an arrow/bolt resistant shield this reaper can only be damaged by melee damage! That would be interesting. Melee are forced to pull out a bow and attack perched ranged mobs occasionally why not the other way around? Casters already lay down their scepters and pull melee weapons with resistant constructs as well.

Alternatively, you could just let players fulfill their roles in parties? If you spent less time watching the kill sheet, and more time performing your role, you might improve your position on the kill sheet, maybe. "But Inquisitive was overperforming" is all good, but the vast majority of bow players weren't, and still aren't. The current iteration is great, if one wants to play a pure ranger AA, or DWS build. What about a Bard AA? A FvS? A Druid? How about someone that wants a Wizard past life, or set of them, but hates playing casters? I'm one of those, that's why I have, or have had, AAs from all of these classes, and various splashes peppered here and there. I'm not going to crunch a bunch of numbers, but right out of the gate, a lvl 15 FvS AA that turns on IPS loses 20% of their base damage out of the gate. I say level 15 because that's when they can take IPS. "But my endgame", not trying to hear it. Not everyone that's playing at endgame is even welcome in the elite groups, because they're not min/max, BiS players with all the bells and whistles. But you're more than happy to throw them under the bus, so long as you get what you want implemented.

News flash: I had my first FvS AA before they ever showed up on the build forums, if they're even there, I don't go, so I wouldn't know if there's even a featured build for it. One of my guild mates, just last week, was acting like it was a new and exciting thing, until they found out I was playing it while the level cap was still 20. I played it then over three lives on two separate characters, because it was fun. So far, the only benefits from the proposed fixes to bows that apply to that particular build are the 13% animation increase, and the increase in RP from AF. Other than that, it's a straight nerf, to a playstyle that is, according to the devs, underperforming in the current live meta. I wonder, if the shoe was on the other foot, and your pet characters were under the chopping block, if you'd have the same cavalier attitude about whatever it was they were doing that dropped your damage by 20%?

[0ldschool]

From my perspective, I see the following:

AF (stand Still version) pros - Stacks decay when you move, over time.
AF (stand Still verison) cons - You gotta stand still to have them build up.

AF (single target version) pros - you can move as much as you want.
AF (single target version) cons - when you change targets you lose ALL the stacks immediately. Given the wonky targeting system, it is quite often that this occurs regularly by accident, without intent by the player.

I think the Single Target version is better, but you should have the stacks lose ALL when targets change. I would rather see something like this:

1st Target of a mob - 3 seconds before a stack adds. Stacks add on damage every .5 seconds as long as you target the same mob. Switching to a different mob costs you 5 stacks and restarts the 3 second timer before stacks accrue again. Stacks decay at 1 per 3 seconds when not attacking or when manyshot is on.

That would mean that if you were dealing with trash, you could maintain some stacks but if you are mowing things down and changing targets regularly, then you can't really build up and maintain a lot of stacks.

It's a nice middle ground that is more forgiving of targeting issues and allows for some benefits to trash clearing using AF instead of IPS. But not as much benefit.

Or find some other way to address the "change mobs, even accidentally, and all stacks are gone" issue. Because that's the biggest problem with the U45 preview 1 version. Otherwise, I thought it was a better solution to "have to stand still".

I think that you meant to say "I think the Single Target version is better, but you should NOT have the stacks lose ALL when targets change". The NOT is importnat there.

I'm glad that you posted this. The 'losing ALL stacks immediately' part of Lam1 version of AF was a showstopper for me. It becomes a boss-only stance. The Lam2 standstill implementation only starts to tick them off slowly when you move (lose one stack every 3 seconds), and then continue to build back up again (not from zero but from where stopped after losing one stack every 3 seconds) when you stop moving. This is infinitely better than the Lam1, and becomes a potential IPS alternative for me. If those are the only two choices, Lam2 (standstill version) is a runaway winner for me. I'm not sure that everyone posting here appreciates the 'slowly dropping stacks' vs 'instant loss of all stacks' difference in the two implementations.

I agree with you that if a middle ground could be found that did not result in all stacks immediately disappearing when switching targets AND allowed movement with only slowly degrading stacks as it works now, that could be even better. But I don't think that is in the cards, so I vote as strongly as I can for Lam2 AF.

[Ashlayna]

I think that you meant to say "I think the Single Target version is better, but you should NOT have the stacks lose ALL when targets change". The NOT is importnat there.

I'm glad that you posted this. The 'losing ALL stacks immediately' part of Lam1 version of AF was a showstopper for me. It becomes a boss-only stance. The Lam2 standstill implementation only starts to tick them off slowly when you move (lose one stack every 3 seconds), and then continue to build back up again (not from zero but from where stopped after losing one stack every 3 seconds) when you stop moving. This is infinitely better than the Lam1, and becomes a potential IPS alternative for me. If those are the only two choices, Lam2 (standstill version) is a runaway winner for me. I'm not sure that everyone posting here appreciates the 'slowly dropping stacks' vs 'instant loss of all stacks' difference in the two implementations.

I agree with you that if a middle ground could be found that did not result in all stacks immediately disappearing when switching targets AND allowed movement with only slowly degrading stacks as it works now, that could be even better. But I don't think that is in the cards, so I vote as strongly as I can for Lam2 AF.

Yeah, that was a real deal breaker. It's important to note, however, that barring the increase of ranged power from 3 to 5 per stack, the current iteration is the same as what's live right now on the main servers.

[janave]

To be fair, other ranged options generally are weaker on CC performance on trash mobs, compared to Bows. So there is some trade off.

Specifics?


This is not in sync with my experience to be honest, there is nothing added inherently to Bows that make them better at CC that i am aware of.

[Wongar]

Thank you for the changes to Archers Focus. I really like the way it works as it rewards team oriented play and a non-kiteing playstyle.

Testing Archers Focus on Lam and found two issues:

1) The Archers Focus stance icon is not showing up in the buff bar. The stacks icon will show up once you start building stacks but the stance icon never does. This is an important indicator as it lets you know when you have been still long enough to start building stacks. I use it preliminary to time getting off a DWS "Aimed Shot" to jump start the stack building. I could live without the separate stance icon if the AF stacks icon showed up when you were in stance with 0 stacks.

2) DWS "Aimed Shot" is not adding the three stacks it says it will in the description and currently does on live. This is a key ability to making Arches Focus / Improved Archer's Focus useful to a DWS ranger.


I have been playing AF focused ranged builds for years and find it very useful as is. In response to those saying AF is useless in all but boss fights, I ask you to consider a different perspective. Consider old school tactics where you let the tank/melee/CC engage melee mobs first. This is not wasted time as during this short time you can position yourself for a good field of fire in the engagement - move to a good spot, post up and engage/take out the high value non melee (will not chase you) targets (casters, healers, buffers, Fear reapers, etc) You can easily build up stacks doing this and then turn you attention to the melee.

Assuming you let the tank/melee pull agro first and using some basic agro management and only pull one mob at a time, you can use single target CC like Leg Shot, Pin, Otto's Whistler, GS Salt to deal with melee mobs without moving.

If you are lucky and play in a group that sets up encounters and does things like pull mobs back to a choke point - it is very easy to post up on the choke point and safely engage anything in/beyond it without moving.

And lastly, if you are playing with someone who insists on kiting you can simply post up and build AF stacks while picking off the mobs chasing the other person. You don't have nearly the problem with kiters that the melee in your group do.

Remember
- You can attack normally during the wait time before AF stance becomes active and you start building stacks
- You can move and keep stacks so not impossible to reposition during fights or even carry stacks from fight to fight
- You can build stacks then switch to other special abilities like IPS, Manyshot, etc with the increased range power.

[Renvar]

Specifics?


This is not in sync with my experience to be honest, there is nothing added inherently to Bows that make them better at CC that i am aware of.

The AA tree, mainly. Terror and Paralyzing arrows in specific. Especially when combined with Falconry for Wisdom synergy.

Sure it is dependent on an enhancement tree. But that's true of all ranged builds. Nobody plays a Gxbow build without Mechanic. Nobody plays a Repeater build without Arti. Nobody plays Heavy/Light non-repeaters without Inquisitive. Nobody plays a star thrower without out Ninja Spy. Nobody plays a Bow build without Ranger or AA.

Unlike melee (where Kensai, Tempest, KoTC, Ravager, and FB can work with a number of different weapons) ranged weapnns are generally only locked into one class or enhancement tree to be viable beyond flavor levels of performance.

[barecm]

Specifics?


This is not in sync with my experience to be honest, there is nothing added inherently to Bows that make them better at CC that i am aware of.

Only bows can utilize paralyze and fear arrows. This changed a while back when any ranged projectile would work. Additionally, you can run Shiradi Champion and get pin, ottos dancing arrows, and nerve toxin, for added crowd control (Shiradi not just for bows).

[zachmandude]

Let me start off by saying thank you Coco & co. for working on these updates. I am completely stoked for Alchemist; literally so excited. I have been on a hiatus waiting for this update. This one update and I'm REALLY looking forward to coming back, rolling up an Alchemist and playing one a few times. I'm actually bringing another friend into the MMO who is excited to play as well!
I should also state that I unfortunately haven't been able to physically test the previews (Neither 1 nor 2) due to my college/work schedule.

However, I have been paying very close attention to all the changes being made, especially to ranged, since ranged characters (bows, crossbows, throwers) are some of my favorite classes to play.

When I first saw the changes, namely to Improved Precise Shot, I was pretty unhappy. The Inquisitive nerf I knew was going to happen, and honestly it needed to. That's going to be a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow, but we all know how disgustingly overpowered Inquisitive was. I have one. It was very fun to play, but even I knew there were some really broken things going on, and I probably wasn't even running a meta build; I always try and make my own. That all being said, even after the changes, Inquisitive is still going to be a very strong enhancement tree and dual crossbows will still be very strong.

After thinking about the changes to Improved Precise Shot, I agreed that generally between Inquisitive and Mechanic, and even Battle Engineer, all of which I've played, the nerf (I feel, others are going to disagree) was needed. Ranged damage can be ridiculous. I know. I've been there, I've seen it, I've done it. 20% is going to hurt but as long as I can still slap it on when I need to and hit everyone in a line, I'll be fine. I'll make things work, as will others.

I was very interested in the change to Archer's Focus, being able to move and build stacks, as I've always wanted to love Archer's Focus as I know it can really boost single target damage, however what threw me off was the standing still portion. And it's not even that, but more specifically the amount of time you have to stand still. It was the biggest turn off for me. I have to reposition (usually) etc, and by the time I get the actual buff, they're on me. I think that was the biggest turn off for me. Being able to move was an interesting idea, however losing all stacks on changing target I wasn't very excited about. This was all for Preview 1.

I see in Preview 2 that they reverted Archer's Focus back to its live counterpart and buffed it. I also read Coco's post about not overpowering Archer's Focus, essentially saying "You can't have a cake and eat it, too." I'm okay with that and I agree, that is 100% fine with me, however I did read another user's post, voicing the same thing that I mentioned earlier: shortening the time of standing still to receive the buff.

If I had to choose between the Ranged Power being bumped up to 5 (vs 3) or shortening the time it takes to stand still and receive the actual Archer's Focus buff? I'd take the latter. If I could have both? Sure, that'd be great, but I would like to reiterate that perhaps shortening the time it takes to receive the AF buff might be very beneficial. I'm not asking it to be instantaneous, and yes, overall it is a short duration (I think roughly two seconds to receive the buff? I forget) to actually receive it currently, but it certainly feels pretty long. So long that it feels very..clunky. I don't have any specific time gate to offer Coco or anyone else, I'll leave that up to him and his crew to determine that. If the iteration stays as it currently is in Preview 2, I'll be okay with that too, but I'll always hope for just the shortest bit of time reduction for the buff.

I also read with great interest about bows. When I started DDO in 2009 the first ever character I made was an Arcane Archer. I loved him. I still do today, as much as I love Deepwood Sniper actually. I've seen some real interesting changes (attack speed may not be "real interesting" to some, but to me it is.) pertaining to Longbows and Shortbows. Attack speed is great, sure, some extra buffs in Deepwood Sniper and Shot on the Run, as well as Improved Archer's Focus really makes me happy that bows are beginning to get some of the love they desperately need. I also noticed Coco saying that there were more things planned for bow users later this year, but to keep the masses happy and since the ranged changes are fairly significant, they rushed ahead with a few bow changes.

I wanted to say thank you for doing so, Coco. I realize you're in a sticky situation with this, as anything you attempt to change, fix, tweak, etc is going to have a positive effect on some and a negative effect on others. However sometimes change is good, even if people don't see it right away, and even if it's extremely hard to see right now. Inquisitive will still be very fun to play, as will Mechanic and Battle Engineer. They will still be powerful, and while yes, everyone, including myself may take a hit and dislike not being able to utterly destroy a room and every enemy in sight with a barrage of bolts and arrows (as quickly as we used to), I feel that for the most part, ranged was always meant to prioritize single target damage, AoE secondly. The AoE option is still there, and hopefully the changes you make to Archer's Focus will give IPS a run for its money, as it definitely needs some love.

This all being said, I do have a few questions for anyone who has tested bows during Preview 2, as I'll be unable to do any personal testing myself sadly.

-How significant is all of the ranged attack speed? Say a level 30 Ranger, focused in Deepwood Sniper with all the goodies and such? Shot on the Run, etc? I've always felt the biggest drawback to bow users was mostly the reloading. Which leads me to my next question.

-Will all the bonuses for ranged attack speed be for nothing essentially since reloading seems to be at a set speed, or does your ranged attack speed affect the rate at which you nock another arrow? I feel as though it does but I've never done any extensive testing.

When I saw the attack speed increase for bows, I was both excited and a bit concerned, mainly because of the question above.

Coco, I really look forward to seeing the changes for bow users, and I hope to hear from you about that very soon. Thank you again, to you and the DDO team. This is still my favorite MMO, and I've went through good times and bad with changes. It's the cycle of things. We'll overcome and adapt, as we always do. That's the fun about it, always coming up with new builds, keeps the game fresh, as does the content you introduce.