U45 Preview 2: Ranged Combat Changes

[CeltEireson]

It´s very expensive (three feats), so many builds can´t/won´t fit it in, with the need for PBS, PS, RS, IPS in the ranged feat line. So, were still on 7% loss on dps for most builds except maybe some fighter splits who have more feats to spare.

And rangers - they get rapid shot, precise shot, manyshot and improved precise shot for free.

If you're looking at the usual ranged feats you're usually talking about:

Rapid shot
Point blank shot
Precise shot
Precision
Improved precise shot
Improved critical ranged
Manyshot

Then you'd have the new requirements:
Dodge
Mobility
shot on the run

So total of 10 feats in total - all builds get at least 7 by level 18, 8 if they're human so either need to use pure ranger/fighter/monk or multiclass with some levels in ranger/fighter/monk.

[SerPounce]

This is exactly the point. We are not going to create a feat that simply gives optimal dps while also allowing you optimal combat flow. The entire point is to create a decision point to think about and plan your flow around whether/when you would like to gain/use it's benefits and when you would like to not.

We are not going to create an Archer's Focus variant that has substantial bonus DPS without having to sacrifice something actively to utilize it. If we were to do that we would make a passive feat with just static boosts but there are plenty of those already.

I completely get that and I agree that it's the right design philosophy. For me I would rather have the lama 1 implementation. I mostly use AF for raid bosses and legendary high reaper quest bosses. Where Lama1 target limitation is better than standing still. I also get that this is subjective and just my personal opinion.

That said, right now you don't lose all your stacks if you move, your stacks degrade a bit. Would it be possible to do the lama 1 implementation, but instead of losing all your stacks on target change you lost say 2-5?

[Deathmaster35]

well, with this you decrease Inquisitive total dps by more than 70% im not sure it did about 390% more dps than other builds. Here are my numbers:
20% nerf with IPS,
16,7% with the Law dice decrease (10/12 dice)
12,5% with the Law dice Ranged Power decrease (about 50% dmg were done by law dice, so its 50% times 25%, for 200 to 150 is a quarter)
25% with 50% Doubleshot nerf (something close to 100% is normal for endgame/endgear, so 2 bolts become 1.5 bolts which means about one quarter nerf)
_____
74,2 % nerf of total dps!

That isnt how math works...

First a maxed inquisitive had 16 law dice, not 12 so it is a 12.5% loss of law dice/damage
The scaling of attack power is a 25% loss to the law damage
those are not additive, those are multiplicative. For simplicity lets say you had exactly 100 attack power. Your law dice average 4.5 on the roll, multiplied by 3 to get 13.5 damage on average per die so 16 dice is 216 damage per shot. Losing two dice lowers that to 189 damage per shot. The attack power change takes it from a times three to a times 2.5 so 11.25 per die average, with 14 dice that is 157.5 damage on average per shot. So the change is from 216 per shot to 157.5. A 27% damage loss to law dice damage on non-lawful targets
Law damage was maybe 25%-30% of my damage at 30. Lets way it was 30%, so the changes to law on your side represent about an 8% loss of overall damage

The double shot and rapid reload charges are the more significant damage losses as most damage is from the main shot, not the law on your side dice. My inquisitive I just reincarnated had 89% double shot at 30. I only had two primal reincarnates, so was getting 6% instead of 9% from that and didnt have any gear for stacking double shot, just had a base Sharn double shot item and wearing the Sharn ranged set. Many people will have less and some will have more than. So lets use 85% as something fairly easy to obtain for an average player with gear, feats and enhancements. Getting half per attack is a 23% damage loss at level 30 as you just flat out lose 23% of your attacks, that is extremely significant!


but the point is no, it isnt a 74.2 % loss, as math doesnt work the way you are using it it is a big loss, guessing with the attack speed changes they were shooting for around 30% reduction in damage(not counting the loss from IPS which is very hard to estimate)

[Deathmaster35]

And rangers - they get rapid shot, precise shot, manyshot and improved precise shot for free.

If you're looking at the usual ranged feats you're usually talking about:

Rapid shot
Point blank shot
Precise shot
Precision
Improved precise shot
Improved critical ranged
Manyshot

Then you'd have to new requirements:
Dodge
Mobility
shot on the run

So total of 10 feats in total - all builds get at least 7 by level 18, 8 if they're human so either need to use pure ranger/fighter/monk(if human) or multiclass with some levels in ranger/fighter/monk.

I think it would be better to add the ranged alacrity to manyshot as a passive. Might also be that they only want rangers and fighters to have it

[Ashlayna]

And rangers - they get rapid shot, precise shot, manyshot and improved precise shot for free.

If you're looking at the usual ranged feats you're usually talking about:

Rapid shot
Point blank shot
Precise shot
Precision
Improved precise shot
Improved critical ranged
Manyshot

Then you'd have the new requirements:
Dodge
Mobility
shot on the run

So total of 10 feats in total - all builds get at least 7 by level 18, 8 if they're human so either need to use pure ranger/fighter/monk or multiclass with some levels in ranger/fighter/monk.

Or, accept that you made a decision to run with Elven AA in a caster class, such as FvS, one I do plan to run, and understand that giving up things like SotR allows you to expand into casting, and it's not like a FvS, or a Druid, or a Wizard, or even a Bard is going to be doing substantially worse, barring the IPS nerf, anyway. The remaining feats can be invested in whatever meta magics. I'm still not a fan of that nerf, but, I have run the FvS AA on three lives, w/out SotR, and not been "gimped" at any time, despite not getting the final Core in AA until 25. Well, it's harder for the first few levels, but they have the base class to fall back on for that. I hold, to this day, that the Divine trees should have gotten Divine Archer, with it just being a copy/paste of AA would be fine. It's not like support for it isn't built in to the game already, with Child of the Silverflame.

[Chai]

That isnt how math works...

First a maxed inquisitive had 16 law dice, not 12 so it is a 12.5% loss of law dice/damage
The scaling of attack power is a 25% loss to the law damage
those are not additive, those are multiplicative. For simplicity lets say you had exactly 100 attack power. Your law dice average 4.5 on the roll, multiplied by 3 to get 13.5 damage on average per die so 16 dice is 216 damage per shot. Losing two dice lowers that to 189 damage per shot. The attack power change takes it from a times three to a times 2.5 so 11.25 per die average, with 14 dice that is 157.5 damage on average per shot. So the change is from 216 per shot to 157.5. A 27% damage loss to law dice damage on non-lawful targets
Law damage was maybe 25%-30% of my damage at 30. Lets way it was 30%, so the changes to law on your side represent about an 8% loss of overall damage

The double shot and rapid reload charges are the more significant damage losses as most damage is from the main shot, not the law on your side dice. My inquisitive I just reincarnated had 89% double shot at 30. I only had two primal reincarnates, so was getting 6% instead of 9% from that and didnt have any gear for stacking double shot, just had a base Sharn double shot item and wearing the Sharn ranged set. Many people will have less and some will have more than. So lets use 85% as something fairly easy to obtain for an average player with gear, feats and enhancements. Getting half per attack is a 23% damage loss at level 30 as you just flat out lose 23% of your attacks, that is extremely significant!


but the point is no, it isnt a 70.4 % loss, as math doesnt work the way you are using it it is a big loss, guessing with the attack speed changes they were shooting for around 30% reduction in damage(not counting the loss from IPS which is very hard to estimate)

I saw a breakdown on our Discord channel that showed 44% damage loss overall. It was an endgame breakdown which assumed an average of 3 mobs were being hit with IPS. I dont remember what the assumed ranged power was.

Cant remember the last time I saw a 10% nerf to something outside of DDO.

Some of our non game specific guilds are 20+ years old and go back to the AIM days for communication platform/Geocities era of the internet - pre YouTube, Pre MySpace etc...

NerfBat™ isnt an actual bat this time. NerfBat™ is the name of the figurative stratofortress they dropped the proverbial WMD from, with everyone who carried on demanding a nerf this time around doing their best Slim Pickens impersonation.

[SerPounce]

well, with this you decrease Inquisitive total dps by more than 70% im not sure it did about 390% more dps than other builds. Here are my numbers:
20% nerf with IPS,
16,7% with the Law dice decrease (10/12 dice)
12,5% with the Law dice Ranged Power decrease (about 50% dmg were done by law dice, so its 50% times 25%, for 200 to 150 is a quarter)
25% with 50% Doubleshot nerf (something close to 100% is normal for endgame/endgear, so 2 bolts become 1.5 bolts which means about one quarter nerf)
_____
74,2 % nerf of total dps!

That seem.

I hope this is a joke, because that math is making me twitch.

[Chai]

And rangers - they get rapid shot, precise shot, manyshot and improved precise shot for free.

If you're looking at the usual ranged feats you're usually talking about:

Rapid shot
Point blank shot
Precise shot
Precision
Improved precise shot
Improved critical ranged
Manyshot

Then you'd have the new requirements:
Dodge
Mobility
shot on the run

So total of 10 feats in total - all builds get at least 7 by level 18, 8 if they're human so either need to use pure ranger/fighter/monk or multiclass with some levels in ranger/fighter/monk.

2 Fighter 18 FVS Human can fit that all in. A guildy from years ago is tentatively planning that out, should they choose to return, and should the stuff from previews make it to live.

No caster support on that though. /shrug. 2 more monk levels?

[Sho-sa]

Coco,

First I like to say that I found the general tone of your initial post to be thoughtful, respectful, and civil on a touchy subject.

Your particulars show that while you all are firm on the IPS reduction, you are willing to consider our point of view on rectification.

We will play with the numbers and see if the bows are in an OK place, while still anticipating that there is more to add from you all later. Recognizing we were upset and therefore pushing some bow buffs earlier than you had planned is acknowledged and appreciated.

My initial reaction is to request a suggestion from the Balance thread. As you all are substantially enhancing previously little used feats which require two other feats as pre-reqs (Spring Attack for melee) can we not approve that suggestion and also eliminate the two feat pre-req requirements for Shot on the Run? If not both feats, then at least compromise on one elimination?

[Deathmaster35]

I saw a breakdown on our Discord channel that showed 44% damage loss overall. It was an endgame breakdown which assumed an average of 3 mobs were being hit with IPS. I dont remember what the assumed ranged power was.

Cant remember the last time I saw a 10% nerf to something outside of DDO.

Some of our non game specific guilds are 20+ years old and go back to the AIM days for communication platform/Geocities era of the internet - pre YouTube, Pre MySpace etc...

NerfBat™ isnt an actual bat this time. NerfBat™ is the name of the figurative stratofortress they dropped the proverbial WMD from, with everyone who carried on demanding a nerf this time around doing their best Slim Pickens impersonation.

I have never hit three+ targets with IPS for more than a few seconds in a fight. Fights where you can hit two targets for a significant part of the right are rare(such as Wash and Dry from Sharn Welcome or the ifrits at the end of Whiteplume

[Chai]

I have never hit three+ targets with IPS for more than a few seconds in a fight. Fights where you can hit two targets for a significant part of the right are rare(such as Wash and Dry from Sharn Welcome or the ifrits at the end of Whiteplume

I do, and there are times when more can be hit. An average of 3 is not unrealistic.

How many quests are there with longer hallways with clumps of mobs running toward the aggro? Quite a few in recent design history.

Edit: If no one is hitting 3 targets or more significantly that would invalidate all of the complaints that IPS as an AOE tool is OP, as it would turn those "I cant make it to the mobs on my melee before the inquis kills them all" claims into hyperbole.

[hit_fido]

[*][*]Archer's Focus has returned to the design functionality that is currently in Live.[*][*]Archer's Focus has had it's range power boost increased from 3 to 5 per stack.

The problem with Archer's Focus was that it's only of benefit when you stand completely still. How often does that happen? For me it's essentially zero. There's no harm in turning it on until you get IPS but it has always ever conferred nearly zero benefit. Increasing the stacks from 3 to 5 is negligible when you're moving around anyway.

Your preview 1 change was an improvement, albeit limited to certain boss scenarios where you could be relatively certain you wouldn't need to change targets for at least a few seconds. At least it was some kind of carrot for switching back to Archer's Focus to go with the stick you whacked IPS with.

Preview 2 just makes Archer's Focus mostly useless again. How many players are standing still while attacking for 10, 20, 30 seconds at a time in this game?

We are not going to create an Archer's Focus variant that has substantial bonus DPS without having to sacrifice something actively to utilize it. If we were to do that we would make a passive feat with just static boosts but there are plenty of those already.

I don't see the logic here. Precise Shot costs a feat and grants Archer's Focus. The sacrifice is spending a feat. So of course Archer's Focus should do something positive like increase DPS. Your preview 1 version was anything but a "substantial" increase, but at least it made it something worth toggling on in certain situations.

[DRoark]

We are not going to create a feat that simply gives optimal dps...

Well, you didn't. You took a feat that existed (IPS), and nerfed it so badly that even WITH the "improvements", Rangers suffered a net loss,
and Bow Clerics are about as useful as boiling mayonnaise, since most are feat-starved and can't take everything to compensate for the loss.

Artificer, my DPS dropped over 20%, doing roughly 72% of my Live damage, for a regular class this is rediculous. With IPS turned off, I STILL lost damage.
I go back to players game experience on this, you seriously shot the dog when you thought it would be a good idea to balance the INQ-Meta by doing this.

Hope you negate this in Preview 3, and listen to the people that actually play the game.

[Blah2]

I like the changes here ( especially on inquisitive; i may become VIP again because of inquis changes) TYVM . Some ideas/ suggestions:

1.) Lets all be clear that anyone with a brain cell knows having to kite to live in group play is bad ( whether your build is poor, bad group/ tank, your skill level is low whatever the reason)

For archer's focus passively add 10-15% ranged diversion to make moving less likely due to aggro.


2.) As for the steep feat cost for Shot on the Run: Give 5% alacrity in mobility feat and another stacking 5% in the shot on the run feat. So same total alacrity but split between 2 feats (or dodge=3%, mobility=3% and SotR=4% all stacking and same total)
Devs I am assuming you have to invest (give up something) something to get something is your goal

3.) For Elven AA clerics or FvS you should atleast give a 5% alacrity in tier 5 of the AA tree, as I am guessing your viewing rangers as "The true bow class"

4. ) I am also hoping your changes to bows later in the year includes changes to arcane archer cores 2 through 5 as each gives a toggles but you can only use 1 at a time and the NON stacking +1 enhancement on bows is never applied ( except possibly at levels 1 to 3 at most for new players?). So effectively 4 cores (2,3,4 and 5) give you 1 toggle and also give a crit profile improvement (core 5). That is real bad as in the worst set of cores in the game

[Cantor]

Yeah from 66% to 50%. And I guess the reload penalties hadn’t been applied yet...

Starting to look like a sledgehammer nerf, but I’d like to see dps test comparisons.


Bow buffs are interesting, though I’m not sure about hiding much of it in DS T5...


I know a bunch of people were giving the opposite feedback, but I hate standing still. I’d much rather have the lamania 1 implement of archer focus.

I'm very underwhelmed, because so much is in DWS T5.

preview 1 was basically <10 RP all the time... skillful use of the new one is a big boost. It's harder to do, but better. I would have seen it be somewhere in between but hey... this is a straight buff over live.

[Tuxedoman96]

This is precisely why we had redesigned Archer's Focus for preview 1. We believed this to be true internally and thus threw out the idea of standing still being the negative and replaced it with needing to focus down each enemy individually.

We got player feedback indicating that a large chunk of people were using the stand still implementation of Archer's Focus already and that the focus down a single target restriction was worse thus us going back to the old version and increasing it's damage.

It's entirely possible we still haven't found the correct balance on the risk/reward spectrum. We'll be reviewing feedback as it comes in, as we did with preview 1. Just know that we won't be replacing Archer's Focus with an ability with no risk associated with large dps reward.

You could have it where you still get stacks of Archer's Focus while moving around, but you build up the stacks faster standing still (let's say 3 stacks per hit, with an ICD of 1 sec). Stacks up to 15 like it does already with 1 RP per stack (increases by 1 RP per stack every 4 lvls after 4, for a total of 5 RP per stack at lvl 20), and stacks decay at a rate of 3 every 6 seconds (gaining new stacks would not reset this timer). I'd also advocate for needing the target to be in PBS range in order to gain stacks. Switching to IPS clears all stacks immediately. Together these allow for the usability through mobility, but offers a benefit for standing still by way of expediting the dmg benefit, while also ensuring that there is appropriate risk in being closer to the enemy before gaining this dmg boost so that you can't just build it up before the monster reaches you. Preventing the new stacks from resetting the timer makes it more difficult to carry that bonus throughout the dungeon all the time. The clearing of the stacks when switching to IPS means that you don't get massive dmg inflation from switching to IPS after gaining the stacks from AF. The scaling RP is so the dmg is not front loaded with the changes.

[Tuxedoman96]

The problem is that its 3 feats for bow to almost catch up to other ranged builds that don't have burn 3 feats to do their stuff. Sure, the pre-req feats are nice stuff, but it's still burning 3 feat slots that other ranged weapons don't need to burn. I'd say spring attack needs its pre-req feats removed too but that's a whole other thread.

They could remove the dodge requirement for mobility and place the dodge you would get from mobility into the dodge feat and then remove dodge as a prereq for sping atk and SoTR. I'd also advocate for removing the requirement of PBS on SoTR, since it doesn't really fit into the particularly theme of shooting while moving (unlike Mobility).

[Tuxedoman96]

well, with this you decrease Inquisitive total dps by more than 70% im not sure it did about 390% more dps than other builds. Here are my numbers:
20% nerf with IPS,
16,7% with the Law dice decrease (10/12 dice)
12,5% with the Law dice Ranged Power decrease (about 50% dmg were done by law dice, so its 50% times 25%, for 200 to 150 is a quarter)
25% with 50% Doubleshot nerf (something close to 100% is normal for endgame/endgear, so 2 bolts become 1.5 bolts which means about one quarter nerf)
_____
74,2 % nerf of total dps!

I'd just like to point out that that's not how %decrease in DPS works. It's multiplicative based on the difference (e.g. 100%-20%= 80%, then 16.7% of 80% = 13.36%, so 80%-13.36%, and so on). I got your point loud and clear, but it helps to be accurate with your calculations when making your case (not to mention that in order to understand the true decrease in DPS, we'd have to look at the usual values for the separate damage components like dmg mods, extra dmg dice, etc.).

An example of the problem with the method you used would be (for simplicity's sake):

50% nerf to IPS
50% nerf to doubleshot
Therefore 100% nerf to dmg (this is clearly false).

[Tuxedoman96]

I think the math still doesn't add up...

Normal
Let's say you shoot 100 arrows in one minute doing 100 damage each = 10,000 damage

IPS Nerf means the same 100 arrows does 80 damage each = 8,000 damage

add in 13% alacrity means 113 arrows doing 80 damage each = 9040 damage

add in SOTR 10% alacrity means 123 arrows doing 80 damage each = 9,840 damage

So there is still a net loss of 10% just to use a Bow - with SOTR it is a 1% loss.

add in feat requirements, etc, Bow users are still in a worse place than they started.

Does the -20% dmg penalty affect all ranged aspects (e.g. extra dmg dice, special atks, etc.) or just the base dmg?

[Thar]

Yep they did. I thought they went a little overboard in the first set of nerfs, but I guess one nuke from orbit wasnt enough to be sure, have another.

more than one nerf this round with the enhancement nerf to reduce the + damage in the mechanic and artificer trees. At least get some data on the change before nerfing more... Seriously, they were not 100% overpowered compared to other forms. This is a bit overboard. if we are taking the game back to 2009 dps then the mobs need scaling back from 300k hps...