U45 Preview 2: Ranged Combat Changes

[Cocomajobo]

Basically AF should function like a "chain attack" bonus...the longer you're continuously fighting, the bigger the buff sustains. Things that break it that are in the natural flow of combat - moving, shooting different mobs - are what makes it problematic, because it's forcing you to fight *badly*.

This is exactly the point. We are not going to create a feat that simply gives optimal dps while also allowing you optimal combat flow. The entire point is to create a decision point to think about and plan your flow around whether/when you would like to gain/use it's benefits and when you would like to not.

We are not going to create an Archer's Focus variant that has substantial bonus DPS without having to sacrifice something actively to utilize it. If we were to do that we would make a passive feat with just static boosts but there are plenty of those already.

The Feat "Shot on the Run" now grants a 10% Alacrity bonus to Shortbows and Longbows



Will that stack with every other feats and enchants from bows and the quiver of allacrity?

It's a "Feat" Bonus which means it stacks with all other sources.

[Chai]

The net effect of the changes look like a buff to bow rangers now, so I don't see what you are complaining about unless by ranger you mean Ranger/Inq?

That alac is making up for straight up -20% DPS penalty?

What about bow for anyone else? Some of the bow buffs were in DS. So other AA and other non AA archers take the 20% DPS penalty -AND- receive alot less back for it.

[droid327]

If they got rid of the delay at the start before it seems to kick in it might be workable - they don't all get removed if you move, there's a counter involved so you can shoot some arrows move, still retain the bonus (but lose some stacks) then start building it again.

It basically comes down to how fast it kicks in, and how fast it builds up. At moment its standing still for three seconds at the start then you get max of one per 0.5 seconds, and they decay one per 3 seconds whilst moving with normal max of 15. If they drop that initial delay down to 1 - 1.5 seconds it would be far better.

Yeah exactly...have it be more of a continuum between total kiting and total turret-mode. The more still you stand, the faster it will build, but the threshold for any benefit at all shouldnt be standing still for 3 seconds. It should allow limited movement during combat, just not totally free movement.

Also worth mentioning since you bring it up - Repeaters (as usual) get the shaft here because of their unique mechanics: they cant fire every 0.5 seconds, they build stacks twice as slow because of their slow innate fire cycle. And they cant even speed it up with Alacrity because of how animations work....its pretty much a hard-coded 1.2 second attack animation, so they're getting less than half the benefit of AF. But still full penalty from IPS...

[Chai]

This is exactly the point. We are not going to create a feat that simply gives optimal dps while also allowing you optimal combat flow. The entire point is to create a decision point to think about and plan your flow around whether/when you would like to gain/use it's benefits and when you would like to not.

We are not going to create an Archer's Focus variant that has substantial bonus DPS without having to sacrifice something actively to utilize it. If we were to do that we would make a passive feat with just static boosts but there are plenty of those already.

There will be zero decision point when being highest DPS = being a soul stone. People will turn it on for bosses and leave IPS on the rest of the time, in order to "play their AC" especially in situations where unexpected spike damage is part of the challenge.

If the desire is to balance PS (AF) with IPS than AF needs to be attractive enough to toggle it on over the other option. You used the stick approach on IPS, but no carrot on AF will mean seeing no increased use.

[Chai]

Yeah exactly...have it be more of a continuum between total kiting and total turret-mode. The more still you stand, the faster it will build, but the threshold for any benefit at all shouldnt be standing still for 3 seconds. It should allow limited movement during combat, just not totally free movement.

Yep, this would be in the spirit of getting a 5 foot step and a full attack. More movement and you only get a regular single attack.

[CeltEireson]

I'd mentioned this before but given you're reworking the feat -

As far as I know shot on the run doesn't stop you from getting the attack penalty whilst moving (or at least when I move on live my displayed attack bonus goes down whilst wielding a bow), any chance this could be looked at.

[Chai]

So they still nerfed IPS, regardless of no issue for a decade, and still think Rangers are AOE spellcasters because they shoot in a straight line.
Just steamrolling 100+ pages of player feedback on that. Time to go back to a Sorcerer, since you haven't murdered actual AOE players.

Im not sure anyone has found the right answer for IPS. Its been 8 years of ad lib.

2012 OP Fury+Manyshot Monk/archers: IPS is fine stacking with Archer's Focus.
2015 OP Shuri-tossers with imbues: IPS is fine stacking with imbues, stacking with Archer's Focus was not WAI.
2017 OP ShuriSpite™: IPS is fine without imbues, Glass Shards is the problem.
2020 U45: IPS 20% DPS penalty.

[Cocomajobo]

There will be zero decision point when being highest DPS = being a soul stone. People will turn it on for bosses and leave IPS on the rest of the time, in order to "play their AC" especially in situations where unexpected spike damage is part of the challenge.

If the desire is to balance PS (AF) with IPS than AF needs to be attractive enough to toggle it on over the other option. You used the stick approach on IPS, but no carrot on AF will mean seeing no increased use.

This is precisely why we had redesigned Archer's Focus for preview 1. We believed this to be true internally and thus threw out the idea of standing still being the negative and replaced it with needing to focus down each enemy individually.

We got player feedback indicating that a large chunk of people were using the stand still implementation of Archer's Focus already and that the focus down a single target restriction was worse thus us going back to the old version and increasing it's damage.

It's entirely possible we still haven't found the correct balance on the risk/reward spectrum. We'll be reviewing feedback as it comes in, as we did with preview 1. Just know that we won't be replacing Archer's Focus with an ability with no risk associated with large dps reward.

[droid327]

This is exactly the point. We are not going to create a feat that simply gives optimal dps while also allowing you optimal combat flow. The entire point is to create a decision point to think about and plan your flow around whether/when you would like to gain/use it's benefits and when you would like to not.

See there you go being too absolute and binary again.

No one's saying you should be able to kite freely. But the problem with the current Live version was that the tradeoff it forced you to make wasnt worth it, because there was only a narrow subset of situations where it wouldnt have an untenable risk of death in actual, practical play (ie boss fights in group play, where an archer could just go siege-tank).

Then the problem with the U45P1 version was similar....because it wiped after every kill, it was only useful in a narrow subset of fights where a single mob would stay alive long enough to build a meaningful amount of stacks (ie boss fights again).

In both cases, it was not useful for single-target trash chaining (which is what it needs to support to be a viable alternative to IPS and a full-fledged combat style of its own). U45P1 because it wiped after each kill, Live because it forced you to stop moving for longer than it takes to actually kill most mobs, and then bled stacks while you were running between encounters.

Like I just posted above - the idea of a tradeoff itself isnt bad, just the tradeoff itself needs to be tuned to fit better into natural combat (without being totally passive). A set-your-feet delay of 0.5 or 1 second would still force players to adjust their gameplay and not just constantly kite, but wouldnt force them to stop playing *well* in order to reap the benefit. Or, conversely, with the U45P1 mechanic, if it didnt lose stacks when switching mobs right after a kill, then it would likewise be useful in a lot more practical situations but maintain the same "dont switch targets early" restriction.

[salmag]

The net effect of the changes look like a buff to bow rangers now, so I don't see what you are complaining about unless by ranger you mean Ranger/Inq?

I think he is saying that Elf Arcane Archers (other than Rangers) gain nothing, except a net loss of 20% IPS.
Silver Flame FVS/Cleric AA and Elf Fighter AA are at a loss because you almost have to go Ranger if you want to be an Archer.

Also, it seems too feat heavy because you almost always have to pick up SOTR now.
FVS/Cleric AA do not have that many Feats to place Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improve Precise Shot, Mobility, Shot On The Run, Rapid Shot, Precision, etc..., to make them a viable Archer. Let alone picking up any Metamagic feats to help with healing.

This looks very costly to non-Rangers. Maybe, even, for Rangers, as well.

[Triaxx2]

*eye twitch* Archers Focus is fine as is... You either stand still and take the risk of getting splatted for 45 bonus RP, or you move and lose the RP, but don't die. +5 almost doubles it's strength, for something that only an inquisitive will realistically reach outside of bosses.

Leave it at 3, and let Shot on the run double the time before stacks die, and/or shorten the time before you start building stacks.

[bnugier]

You know what sucks. Paying for something and then after you buy it the seller changes it. Like if I would have bought a car with nice tires but then all of a sudden you came in and put on crappy tires.

[LurkingVeteran]

If you buy SSG that actually owns the game, I'm sure you can come to some kind of arrangement.

[rabidfox]

I think he is saying that Elf Arcane Archers (other than Rangers) gain nothing, except a net loss of 20% IPS.
Silver Flame FVS/Cleric AA and Elf Fighter AA are at a loss because you almost have to go Ranger if you want to be an Archer.

Also, it seems too feat heavy because you almost always have to pick up SOTR now.
FVS/Cleric AA do not have that many Feats to place Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improve Precise Shot, Mobility, Shot On The Run, Rapid Shot, Precision, etc..., to make them a viable Archer. Let alone picking up any Metamagic feats to help with healing.

This looks very costly to non-Rangers. Maybe, even, for Rangers, as well.

^This. My FvS bow setup can't get the feats need to be viable if the DPS is based off needing dodge>mobility>shot on the run. FvS Inq becomes the viable ranged options because of feat starvation. The 10% should be shoved into rapid shot as a bonus for bows to bring them to par; or even in IPS as a passive extra for bow users.

[Pilgrim1]

We redesigned Archer's Focus for preview 1 under the faulty notion that the current implementation was not desirable. We had been working under the impression that Archer's Focus was viewed as a niche situational ability that had negatives (standing still) that far outweighed the positives (Ranged Power Increase). Your feedback in preview 1 made it clear that the forgiving nature of the toggle (referring to the fact that the stacks slowly remove one at a time after moving or turning off the toggle) meant that it's current implementation was desirable and useful already. As such, we have returned Archer's Focus to the same design as is currently live but have increased the Ranged Power granted per stack from 3 up to 5.

This is a good change, I like what you have done here. I think hitting hard vs hitting lots of enemies is a good traid-off. The one thing you might consider is making the standing still trigger for archers focus be a little bit more forgiving. A slightly shorter time to be standing still to build stacks would allow people to use this stance for general questing, not just for single targets. I am very happy that you maintained the standing still aspect however, range already has plenty of incentives for kitting, this insensitive standing still.

but the gist is that we are increasing the base attack speed of Longbows and Shortbows and peppering in a few sources of further increased attack speed exclusive to Bows that can be selected via feats/enhancements.

I am happy that you are giving some extra attention to bows during this range pass. When designing this please keep in mind that bows are 66% attack speed and 33% reload animation. So if you want to give bows a 10% alacrity boost you really need to give them a 13% boost to make it actually 10%.

My personal preference would be to make bows hit harder NOT faster. Thus a bow shot would be a big whooping huge hit, rather then lots of fast hits. Some options are: giving bows a bigger crit multiplier, giving bows a much bigger base damage (like 3x as much), or giving a large boost to ranged power when using bows. I would even suggest reducing the attack speed of bows to make the hits even bigger. I think it would be a really fun style of play that would be different. Kind of like your running around as a true ballista.

Multitude of Missiles: Requires Point Blank Shot and +6 Base Attack Bonus: For the next 20 seconds, while wielding a Simple Thrown Weapon add 100 to your Doubleshot and [ your Base Attack Bonus to Ranged Power. Shares a cooldown with Manyshot.

I think you should remove the shares a cooldown with manyshot. This feet takes simple weapons, manyshot uses bows. Also if someone wants to make and play a build that alternates between the 2 I think you should encourage that.


Lastly a prediction:
With all your changes I predict that great xbows will become the top ranged damage (aside from alchemists witch im still figuring out).

[LurkingVeteran]

I think he is saying that Elf Arcane Archers (other than Rangers) gain nothing, except a net loss of 20% IPS.
Silver Flame FVS/Cleric AA and Elf Fighter AA are at a loss because you almost have to go Ranger if you want to be an Archer.

Also, it seems too feat heavy because you almost always have to pick up SOTR now.
FVS/Cleric AA do not have that many Feats to place Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improve Precise Shot, Mobility, Shot On The Run, Rapid Shot, Precision, etc..., to make them a viable Archer. Let alone picking up any Metamagic feats to help with healing.

This looks very costly to non-Rangers. Maybe, even, for Rangers, as well.

This is actually true, I haven't taken Shot on the Run in ages and forgot the steep prereqs. Bow style is already very feat heavy to pick up due to IPS and Manyshot. Squeezing in Dodge, Mobility and Shot on the Run is just not going to be viable for most non-fighter or non-rangers. Ironically, Monkchers will still probably be able to squeeze it in. I strongly recommend removing the Mobility pre-req on it. There is no reason melee styles can get away with 3 feats and ranged needing what, 6 even before IC:Crit?. You basically have to do human for some bow builds now, and racial AA on classes w/o bonus feats are screwed.

[Vorachtin]

This is precisely why we had redesigned Archer's Focus for preview 1. We believed this to be true internally and thus threw out the idea of standing still being the negative and replaced it with needing to focus down each enemy individually.

We got player feedback indicating that a large chunk of people were using the stand still implementation of Archer's Focus already and that the focus down a single target restriction was worse thus us going back to the old version and increasing it's damage.

It's entirely possible we still haven't found the correct balance on the risk/reward spectrum. We'll be reviewing feedback as it comes in, as we did with preview 1. Just know that we won't be replacing Archer's Focus with an ability with no risk associated with large dps reward.

Yeah the AF nerf in part 1 hurt worse than the IPS nerf, really excited it was reverted. At least for end game dps builds.

[Ashlayna]

I'm seeing a lot of "I have to take three feats to get it" where Shot on the Run is concerned, but the feat listed that one has to take is Mobility, which requires Dodge. Not two feats normally in my list, but far from killing a build. The requirements are exactly the same as they are for Spring Attack, and seems like a nice bonus if one wants the feat. There is a built in 5% dodge bonus, assuming Dodge and Mobility's bonuses stack, which would alleviate the issues with standing still for AF to some extent, prior to actually acquiring the feat, and IPS, where it doesn't matter if you move or not.

The thing about the current iteration of AF is that it does allow you to move, as long as you're not trying to "run back to the entrance", aka kite, with it. The 3 seconds you have to stand still before you start building stacks can be the time it takes you to acquire your target, and with the bleed off, instead of instant removal, it's fine. Assuming the 13% increase to animations on bows will actually translate to increased atk spd, you'll be gaining stacks faster than what you'll lose them if you have to reposition a small amount for different targets, once you start building them. I don't know if anyone's noticed, but if you have a ranged weapon equipped, and stop at a merchant, or loiter around on your ship, you start gaining AF anyway. It doesn't require OnDamage to start, just to build stacks, and that's been fine for years, and is fine now.

[DRoark]

The net effect of the changes look like a buff to bow rangers now, so I don't see what you are complaining about unless by ranger you mean Ranger/Inq?

Not talking about INQUISITOR at all, it's a horrible tree which started this entire meat-popsicle of a patch that should have never even happened.

Rangers got a slight buff to offset the IPS nerf, if they invest in a couple feats, and stand still half the time. It's alright if you don't plan on soloing.

Ranged Artificers (repeater) got slapped because they're not using either the INQ-Meta or a bow, and gain nothing from this aside from a DPS nerf.
There is still no Medium ranged Sharn piece (different issue), so they can't even use the Shield core from their own tree. Common builds got punked.

I have never seen either of those builds (bow/repeater) remotely compete with an actual AOE build. The IPS change was unneeded, INQ change
seems to be somewhat balanced, and bow use got slightly better if you're not soloing.

[Chai]

This is precisely why we had redesigned Archer's Focus for preview 1. We believed this to be true internally and thus threw out the idea of standing still being the negative and replaced it with needing to focus down each enemy individually.

We got player feedback indicating that a large chunk of people were using the stand still implementation of Archer's Focus already and that the focus down a single target restriction was worse thus us going back to the old version and increasing it's damage.

It's entirely possible we still haven't found the correct balance on the risk/reward spectrum. We'll be reviewing feedback as it comes in, as we did with preview 1. Just know that we won't be replacing Archer's Focus with an ability with no risk associated with large dps reward.

It has always been a single target restriction.

The feedback was that changing to a different target causes all stacks to drop. That wasnt a risk, that was another penalty. Trash mobs die too fast to have to build up stacks on every single mob.

If you want a single target feat to compete with an AOE feat you need to have some form of carrot for the single target feat. Using the stick approach on the AOE feat alone wont cause a single target feat that ends up in character death to be selected over an AOE feat.

This wont cause usage to change. AF will be a boss DPS thing, and IPS will be for trash removal. In older content where the mobs arent piled up, you might actually see people toggling both off. Anyone wanting an example of this should play through the first few quests in CO6. Two trolls here. Two trolls and a human caster there. Not going to get those to form a conga line any faster than you can just shoot them down while running forward, using neither AF (not gonna stand still) nor IPS (20% DPS penalty when it takes longer to line mobs up than it does to kill them individually).