Rethinking "OP"

[niknight]

Devil's Advocate:

Players with uber completionist, the best in class gear, etc., also can (and do) use the latest OP classes and trees. Then they become super-duper OP.

And the ironic thing is that these players are the ones who are least affected by balance changes. Top players receiving a nerf go from super-duper OP to extremely good. Less skilled players receiving a nerf go from engaging with the content to constant death and frustration. This is the exact reason why a lot of high schools are removing academic requirements for participation in extra-curricular activities. While it may motivate the super-academically OP student to not slack off, it completely removes the engagement for the student who only comes to school for their sport/music/club.

OP stuff just destroys the party play experience when half the players don't feel like they are contributing anymore. If you don't want to grind then hust don't do it. You were all for choices, and not grinding hurts no one. The grinders will also run the OP builds anyway, so its just a spiral to the bottom.

That said, the underlying problem with DDO is that the accumulated benefits of the grind are OP, so many feel compelled to do it to be competitive in party play to begin with. This is what they have failed to balance, esp reaper hp, but all of it together. Asking for OP builds isn't going to fix that however, only balance can. OPness is the problem.

Dead on. A lot of the power granted by the grind either needs to be front loaded, or shifted into the base classes / trees / destinies for the appropriate toons. If you're trying to be a DC wizard, you can get +9 Spell Pen from 6 heroic past lives and +10 from the trees (and that's only as a pure Wiz if you take Tier 5 EK and spend 41 points in PM). Past lives are supposed to be small benefits that boost your character, not benefits that outshine what your base class gives you.

[AnubisPrime]

As the HC server has shown, players can start 1st life characters with nothing and build them up to where they can Epic duo DQ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIQQjAdZrIs&t=902s

I know people that played enough that they TR'd during the event.

I also know for a fact that people were crafting like crazy. I sold collectibles on the AH for the first few weeks and made a fortune.

OP builds, OP items...meh. The game is what you make of it.

My monk was well crafted for R1-R6. He can certainly do damage and has survivability on higher reaper, but those levels (R7+) are better served in the current meta-game by ranged characters and whatever popular build dujour. You don't want those creeps touching you at that level. Now it's inquisitives, it will be something next. Players will always find a way.

Do I like taking my multi-completionist character through the latest max build to clear out the dungeon ahead of the group? Sure, every now and then. I understand though, when some things need to be tweaked.

SSG will balance ("nerf") some stuff.

I'm glad they are paying attention to those details.

[redoubt]

I would argue that what is bad is they limit engagement with the content. When you are OP, you just run through not paying attention killing things and going to the next easy thing to kill. Balanced PvE engages you, you think about things and react. Arguably more fun.

Well, some yes. But not all.

My main, while far from done, with 60 reaper points, 100ish past lives, still has 2-3 years more of gaining past lives. Rather than zerg on R1, I have been raising the R level. My friends and I are running in the 4-6 range most of the time. We move efficiently, but still pause between fights to heal, double check buffs before a big fight. Assign jobs for the end fight as needed.

So even when we have OP builds in the group, we run at the level that puts us in that challenge position. Nerfing the OP thing means we drop the R level and run at the same challenge position relative to our group. What it does to us is make the grind longer.

My preference is to not make the grind any longer.

[karatemack]

The vast majority of players will play whatever is most OP (or at the very least above a certian percentage, very few people will play the worst class/build just for 'fun'), humans are naturally attracted to optimizing things, when there are only 1 or 2 options that are far above everything else this destroys build diversity.

You're still stuck on WHAT happened and are largely ignoring WHY it happened.

People do not play the most OP thing simply because "humans are naturally attracted to optimizing things". You discount the players who do like to play niche builds, those who simply want to finish the grind for their actual build in as little time as possible, players who don't necessarily want to play something OP but find that it's helpful to do so in order to contribute in the content their friends are playing and those players who just aren't as skilled at the the game who may have the PL power but not the talent to "keep up" with their guildies.

What kills build diversity is PLAYER CHOICE and GRIND. Folks always ignore the fact that when nerfs occur it doesn't make the meta go away, it only shifts the meta to something else. Those who are subscribed to the FoTM build philosophy will all be running the same thing in a week or so. Second, don't ignore the impact GRIND has on the choices players make. If you were to sit down and think through 5 builds you'd like to make alts for, and then list out which lives would you need for each of those builds to keep up with your DDO circle, how much many lives would it be? It probably isn't ALL the lives, but I bet the number is somewhat large. If you could shave days/weeks (depending on how much playtime you have) off of that grind and get to playing the build you actually want to play faster, wouldn't you want that option? Most of us do.

[Chai]

There is never any excuse for OP things, when one thing is horrifically OP it is the same as everything else being underpowered.

The vast majority of players will play whatever is most OP (or at the very least above a certian percentage, very few people will play the worst class/build just for 'fun'), humans are naturally attracted to optimizing things, when there are only 1 or 2 options that are far above everything else this destroys build diversity.

Inquisitive nerf was needed and extremely generous, even after all their nerfs they'll be a solid B+ to A- spec if built properly. The devs showed a massive amount of restraint not warlocking them.

The bolded statement is fundamentally and objectively incorrect in a PVE game.

People conflate (many times on purpose) the measuring stick, and in a PVE game the measuring stick is the content. Something being over powered against the content does NOT indicate everything else is under powered against the same content.

People are too busy measuring against each other when no one is playing against each other.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

devil's advocate:

Players with uber completionist, the best in class gear, etc., also can (and do) use the latest op classes and trees. Then they become super-duper op. Then those players complain the game is too easy. Then the devs create weird, lore-ruining, bolt-on systems to try to solve the problem. They incentivize those bolt-on systems heavily, because, hey, they worked through lunch one friday to build it. Then that bolt-on difficulty becomes the new normal, and those alts and returning players are right back where they started.

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