Some notes about balance changes

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

That's the entire point of having a preview server - to preview things before they're fully ready.

Not historically Lynnabel. I'm sorry. Will you go on record right now that your team IS listening to the playerbase and to state that Strikethrough is off the schedule to be released LIVE for the indefinite future until (or if) it is actually warranted (ACTUAL PLAYER INPUT) and properly tested?

Sev-- these two words should be stapled to the wall behind your desk for the betterment of the future of DDO.... PLAYER INPUT.

And I say the above two statements as 100% INVESTED and dedicated to the future of this game, and all it's good thats come from your team's amazing work in the last 15 years.

[DRoark]

That's the entire point of having a preview server - to preview things before they're fully ready.

Sorry Lynnabel, but going by DDOs entire history, things are generally a done deal when they hit preview. The changes as they stand in terms of the IPS nerf (wholly INQ-influenced)
and Strikethrough vs Glancing is just abysmal. I suspect you're going to lose a chunk of the playerbase again going by all the feedback, and I don't really blame people for moving on.

Doing such broad changes to multiple builds, and nerfing a decade-old feat (which "suddenly" is an issue after X universal tree came out *cough*) is seriously poor game management.
Changes like this need to be tested for months, and feedback needs to be addressed, instead of random "this is just a test, really!" blanket statements from design. We're not buying it.

[J-mann]

That's the entire point of having a preview server - to preview things before they're fully ready.

The changes to 2hf are too weak and a nerf to an already too weak playstyle. Here's the easy way to fix it: St starts at 50% and goes up 50% per feat, special attacks work with st get rid of the stupid hard cap. Also additionalst needs to be 5% per ap at a minimum, 5 for 3 is an insult, and make the acrobats buff double st you might get a stick build to show up then (doubt it though sticks are still up). Cleaves are now benefitted from double strike and speed boosts and adrenaline. Strike through should proc on the cleave as well. Suddenly 2hf is an aoe style and at least remotely comparable to sorcs and wizzies, which aside from raids, are more op than inquisitive but inquisitive got a nuclear nerf and sorcs got a really minor one.....

[nokowi]

By the lack of response, SSG shows once again they have no interest in talking with those interested in engaging tactical stealth play.

I'll skip this Lamannia, SSG is just wasting my time.

[MrWindupBird]

I recently TR'ed back to melee after 6+mos playing as a ranged (primarily inquisitive splits) or caster on both of my toons, here's some things I've noticed.

Background/stage-setting- this is 95% from perspective of lvl 30 endgame- I play almost exclusively R10 and reaper raids, and there are many people more qualified to comment on the heroic leveling experience. I have a decent # of reaper points (took a 2yr break prior to introduction of reaper), I do not have wings. I have most, but not all, relevant heroic/iconic/epic past lives, but no relevant racial lives. I play in an active guild with similarly strong players. I have access to very good gear. There are better soloists than me (see the Ascendance r10 melee runs posted in Achievements), but I've done most of the easy-to-middle-difficulty content R10 deathless solo on ranged/caster, done 2man hard Nemesis, etc. I've been playing on and off since 2010.

Thesis- the things that make DDO a fun MMO really comparatively disadvantage melee.

I very much like the fast-paced dynamic, environmental combat in DDO. You can use WASD/environment very effectively to manage encounters. You can arrow-dance. You can pillar-kite, you can string enemies out and take advantage of differences in movement speed. Most (but not all) enemies attacks are telegraphed, and have mostly predictable hitboxes. All this rewards an active, twitchy playstyle. A smart and competent ranged/caster can avoid >95% of enemy attacks with good movement. Melee cannot do this to the same extent- you can probably avoid 70-80% of attacks with good twitching/circling, but you will get hit much much more frequently. Even more, the ranged toons suffer no DPS loss to this movement, while melee most certainly does.

The distance ranged combat affords also gives you a better tactical view of what's actually happening- you'll easily spot the fear reaper in the group, or the vengeance circle, that is much more difficult to see as a melee.

Here's a brief list of things that comparatively suck as melee- they feel unfair or unfun
1. redname 360-largeAOE cleaves that will hit DPS on his back even when effectively tanked. Every single redname in Sharn Docks did this, and it was infuriating.
2. vengeance circles- force you to run out and stop DPS, much more difficult to see amid the scrum when meleeing than at range
3. enemy archers who do more melee damage than ranged (again archers are moot on ranged toons who can sidestep indefinitely)
4. unreachable enemies (Irk, archers on walls, THTH skulls, etc) of which there are an inexplicably large #
5. The vast majority of boss special abilities are easily avoided via distance management and can be quite punitive to melee- ie Fortis force-burst, Irk shot, Rudus jump, etc etc. This is true as primary aggro or DPS'ing while someone else tanks
6. I had wayyy better CC options as high-RoF Shiradi than I do as a melee. Dire charge is great but it is not enough. LGS salt and guardbreaking are both fantastic but not always an option


Melee get ~25% more hp from EDF if they want it, but otherwise there aren't substantial differences in available defenses. This does not counterbalance taking ~10x as many hits.

I don't have any great solutions- I've never played any other MMOs but this must be a common issue, and solutions are out there. Some things are easy to fix (for god's sakes no more floating bosses, no redname air eles, stop giving all rednames 360cleaves, they are not fun, etc etc). Even after DPS is a little more fairly balanced (again, remember uptime is different), melee really should have inherently better defenses d/t the much much higher incoming damage. Some sort of procc'ing-on-melee-hit avoidance buff might be helpful, I'm not sure- obviously it would have to be independent of classes or enhancements.

Summary- I'm not asking for the game to be made easier. I like the aforementioned special abilities (though some need slightly longer tells). In fact I would much prefer no further grind and just give us new, difficult content. But there are a lot of asymmetries to melee combat compared to ranged, more than simply DPS and AOE-via-IPS (both of which are indeed way higher on inquisitive atm). Survivability and DPS-uptime are dramatically different, and this is not discussed often enough. Please bear this in mind when designing future content.

[Ausdoerrt]

A DEMAND from the playerbase for this change.

Well, there is certainly demand to change / fix / buff THF from the players. Something just went very wrong in terms of implementation, I guess.

[Fedora1]

By the lack of response, SSG shows once again they have no interest in talking with those interested in engaging tactical stealth play.

I'll skip this Lamannia, SSG is just wasting my time.

Were there any changes to stealth in this update?

If not, then the lack of discussion is probably because they are focused on discussing things they did, not things they didn't do.

I do not use stealth, and haven't since maybe 2010. I think a lot of players might be in the same boat. I am not against changing/fixing stealth, but it might just not be a high priority for them as it likely won't affect the bottom dollar of SSG to devote the time and effort on it. That's not to say they won't deal with it at some point, but it's not likely high on their priority list. I doubt they see a mass exodus of players if they leave it alone, nor do they foresee it bringing in revenue by recalling former players or recruiting new players.

I commend you for keeping the issue on the radar though and do hope they get around to fixing stealth for players like yourself.

[lyrecono]

I recently TR'ed back to melee after 6+mos playing as a ranged (primarily inquisitive splits) or caster on both of my toons, here's some things I've noticed.

Background/stage-setting- this is 95% from perspective of lvl 30 endgame- I play almost exclusively R10 and reaper raids, and there are many people more qualified to comment on the heroic leveling experience. I have a decent # of reaper points (took a 2yr break prior to introduction of reaper), I do not have wings. I have most, but not all, relevant heroic/iconic/epic past lives, but no relevant racial lives. I play in an active guild with similarly strong players. I have access to very good gear. There are better soloists than me (see the Ascendance r10 melee runs posted in Achievements), but I've done most of the easy-to-middle-difficulty content R10 deathless solo on ranged/caster, done 2man hard Nemesis, etc. I've been playing on and off since 2010.

Thesis- the things that make DDO a fun MMO really comparatively disadvantage melee.

I very much like the fast-paced dynamic, environmental combat in DDO. You can use WASD/environment very effectively to manage encounters. You can arrow-dance. You can pillar-kite, you can string enemies out and take advantage of differences in movement speed. Most (but not all) enemies attacks are telegraphed, and have mostly predictable hitboxes. All this rewards an active, twitchy playstyle. A smart and competent ranged/caster can avoid >95% of enemy attacks with good movement. Melee cannot do this to the same extent- you can probably avoid 70-80% of attacks with good twitching/circling, but you will get hit much much more frequently. Even more, the ranged toons suffer no DPS loss to this movement, while melee most certainly does.

The distance ranged combat affords also gives you a better tactical view of what's actually happening- you'll easily spot the fear reaper in the group, or the vengeance circle, that is much more difficult to see as a melee.

Here's a brief list of things that comparatively suck as melee- they feel unfair or unfun
1. redname 360-largeAOE cleaves that will hit DPS on his back even when effectively tanked. Every single redname in Sharn Docks did this, and it was infuriating.
2. vengeance circles- force you to run out and stop DPS, much more difficult to see amid the scrum when meleeing than at range
3. enemy archers who do more melee damage than ranged (again archers are moot on ranged toons who can sidestep indefinitely)
4. unreachable enemies (Irk, archers on walls, THTH skulls, etc) of which there are an inexplicably large #
5. The vast majority of boss special abilities are easily avoided via distance management and can be quite punitive to melee- ie Fortis force-burst, Irk shot, Rudus jump, etc etc. This is true as primary aggro or DPS'ing while someone else tanks
6. I had wayyy better CC options as high-RoF Shiradi than I do as a melee. Dire charge is great but it is not enough. LGS salt and guardbreaking are both fantastic but not always an option


Melee get ~25% more hp from EDF if they want it, but otherwise there aren't substantial differences in available defenses. This does not counterbalance taking ~10x as many hits.

I don't have any great solutions- I've never played any other MMOs but this must be a common issue, and solutions are out there. Some things are easy to fix (for god's sakes no more floating bosses, no redname air eles, stop giving all rednames 360cleaves, they are not fun, etc etc). Even after DPS is a little more fairly balanced (again, remember uptime is different), melee really should have inherently better defenses d/t the much much higher incoming damage. Some sort of procc'ing-on-melee-hit avoidance buff might be helpful, I'm not sure- obviously it would have to be independent of classes or enhancements.

Summary- I'm not asking for the game to be made easier. I like the aforementioned special abilities (though some need slightly longer tells). In fact I would much prefer no further grind and just give us new, difficult content. But there are a lot of asymmetries to melee combat compared to ranged, more than simply DPS and AOE-via-IPS (both of which are indeed way higher on inquisitive atm). Survivability and DPS-uptime are dramatically different, and this is not discussed often enough. Please bear this in mind when designing future content.

Thanks,

For putting it the way you did.
I have been trying to find the right words and tone to adress this issue.

I hope it helps, when it comes to chaging their minds, melee isn't often considered a priority.

[Valerianus]

I recently TR'ed back to melee after 6+mos playing as a ranged (primarily inquisitive splits) or caster on both of my toons, here's some things I've noticed.

Background/stage-setting- this is 95% from perspective of lvl 30 endgame- I play almost exclusively R10 and reaper raids, and there are many people more qualified to comment on the heroic leveling experience. I have a decent # of reaper points (took a 2yr break prior to introduction of reaper), I do not have wings. I have most, but not all, relevant heroic/iconic/epic past lives, but no relevant racial lives. I play in an active guild with similarly strong players. I have access to very good gear. There are better soloists than me (see the Ascendance r10 melee runs posted in Achievements), but I've done most of the easy-to-middle-difficulty content R10 deathless solo on ranged/caster, done 2man hard Nemesis, etc. I've been playing on and off since 2010.

Thesis- the things that make DDO a fun MMO really comparatively disadvantage melee.

I very much like the fast-paced dynamic, environmental combat in DDO. You can use WASD/environment very effectively to manage encounters. You can arrow-dance. You can pillar-kite, you can string enemies out and take advantage of differences in movement speed. Most (but not all) enemies attacks are telegraphed, and have mostly predictable hitboxes. All this rewards an active, twitchy playstyle. A smart and competent ranged/caster can avoid >95% of enemy attacks with good movement. Melee cannot do this to the same extent- you can probably avoid 70-80% of attacks with good twitching/circling, but you will get hit much much more frequently. Even more, the ranged toons suffer no DPS loss to this movement, while melee most certainly does.

The distance ranged combat affords also gives you a better tactical view of what's actually happening- you'll easily spot the fear reaper in the group, or the vengeance circle, that is much more difficult to see as a melee.

Here's a brief list of things that comparatively suck as melee- they feel unfair or unfun
1. redname 360-largeAOE cleaves that will hit DPS on his back even when effectively tanked. Every single redname in Sharn Docks did this, and it was infuriating.
2. vengeance circles- force you to run out and stop DPS, much more difficult to see amid the scrum when meleeing than at range
3. enemy archers who do more melee damage than ranged (again archers are moot on ranged toons who can sidestep indefinitely)
4. unreachable enemies (Irk, archers on walls, THTH skulls, etc) of which there are an inexplicably large #
5. The vast majority of boss special abilities are easily avoided via distance management and can be quite punitive to melee- ie Fortis force-burst, Irk shot, Rudus jump, etc etc. This is true as primary aggro or DPS'ing while someone else tanks
6. I had wayyy better CC options as high-RoF Shiradi than I do as a melee. Dire charge is great but it is not enough. LGS salt and guardbreaking are both fantastic but not always an option


Melee get ~25% more hp from EDF if they want it, but otherwise there aren't substantial differences in available defenses. This does not counterbalance taking ~10x as many hits.

I don't have any great solutions- I've never played any other MMOs but this must be a common issue, and solutions are out there. Some things are easy to fix (for god's sakes no more floating bosses, no redname air eles, stop giving all rednames 360cleaves, they are not fun, etc etc). Even after DPS is a little more fairly balanced (again, remember uptime is different), melee really should have inherently better defenses d/t the much much higher incoming damage. Some sort of procc'ing-on-melee-hit avoidance buff might be helpful, I'm not sure- obviously it would have to be independent of classes or enhancements.

Summary- I'm not asking for the game to be made easier. I like the aforementioned special abilities (though some need slightly longer tells). In fact I would much prefer no further grind and just give us new, difficult content. But there are a lot of asymmetries to melee combat compared to ranged, more than simply DPS and AOE-via-IPS (both of which are indeed way higher on inquisitive atm). Survivability and DPS-uptime are dramatically different, and this is not discussed often enough. Please bear this in mind when designing future content.

accurate, thank you for this. i want to add, the edf mess often strips melee to throw here and there a heal or a rez on the fly, still another advantage\utility of going ranged. more party utility\quicker response. and if i read again ppl saying "but you can deactivate it" i'll start screaming. i know we adapted to this but the concept is a mess. that's so much fun and it is so practical and so fast to juggle between stances messing with hp and stuff in melee range, yeah, sure. let's help melee! ok, let's add a totally new unneeded layer of clicking and hotbar bloat. great idea! link those hp to combat style feats.

[palladin9479]

Most of what he described is the ridiculous offensive power bloat that enemies get in Reaper difficulty. They end up doing 10~20x more damage, which ranged /caster characters can completely avoid.

Or to put it another way, monsters have a -98% damage penalty against ranged / casters and a +10,000% damage bonus against melee. Those numbers aren't exaggerations, it's how the game is played now.

I add to what the above posted wrote, I play melee characters exclusively and have dealt with this for a long long time. It's not as bad in Reaper 1 but after four skulls it really gets out of hand. When monsters can deal 8,000 ~ 14,000 damage per hit then something is seriously broken code wise.

[DYWYPI]

Yes, Fedora1 there were changes to the Stealth System.

Were there any changes to stealth in this update?

I don't know what I've seen, was it all an illusion? All a mirage gone bad.

Cocomajobo, made a post of the forums entitled: Stealth and Sneaking. Several enquires were raised by a handful of players (including some U45 Preview testing of the new system). With no apparent response from SSG.

So Noko, in this case has a valid reason to be talking about how the "balance" changes to a monster's detection range being reduced to; 18 metre, when in Sneak, has any significant benefit to the player or whatsoever, etc. Because from testing no benefit was observed by lowering the range and thus there's no evidence to suggest the range needed any reducing in the first place.

[Fedora1]

Yes, Fedora1 there were changes to the Stealth System.

Okay thank you for the helpful reply. I was kind of worried I'd get flamed. lol

[Ashlayna]

Yes, Fedora1 there were changes to the Stealth System.

I don't know what I've seen, was it all an illusion? All a mirage gone bad.

Cocomajobo, made a post of the forums entitled: Stealth and Sneaking. Several enquires were raised by a handful of players (including some U45 Preview testing of the new system). With no apparent response from SSG.

So Noko, in this case has a valid reason to be talking about how the "balance" changes to a monster's detection range being reduced to; 18 metre, when in Sneak, has any significant benefit to the player or whatsoever, etc. Because from testing no benefit was observed by lowering the range and thus there's no evidence to suggest the range needed any reducing in the first place.

The two things I notice in this screenshot is that slimes et al have Tremor Sense, so it may as well be spiders you're showing, and you're not 18 meters from any of them, and their aggro is linked, and in so far as I'm aware, always has been. 18 meters is about a foot and a half longer than 18 yards, so you would need to be about 56 feet away. How was detection against mobs that don't have Tremor Sense? As much as I'm not a fan of what's been presented for U45, this is a very bad example for stealth, since these mobs will detect you anyway.

[Saekee]

Were there any changes to stealth in this update?

If not, then the lack of discussion is probably because they are focused on discussing things they did, not things they didn't do.

I do not use stealth, and haven't since maybe 2010. I think a lot of players might be in the same boat. I am not against changing/fixing stealth, but it might just not be a high priority for them as it likely won't affect the bottom dollar of SSG to devote the time and effort on it. That's not to say they won't deal with it at some point, but it's not likely high on their priority list. I doubt they see a mass exodus of players if they leave it alone, nor do they foresee it bringing in revenue by recalling former players or recruiting new players.

I commend you for keeping the issue on the radar though and do hope they get around to fixing stealth for players like yourself.

I think that one of the ways that they monitor things is statistics—quests completed with minimum kills for example. So they see that there are still players taking down Amber and No Refunds on R10 and my reaper farming of lowbie epic runs of R10 Rusted Blades in 8 min is probably on their radar. I think that the stacking sneak speed nerf is a result of hardcore since it is in no way OP, just fun

[palladin9479]

And the words back, some more nerfs but those might be unintentional.

[DYWYPI]

Ashlayna, I was just showing the new "pretty purple eyes" in that image; it was nothing to do with distance or aggravation - I probably wasn't being clear. :-)

The two things I notice in this screenshot is that slimes et al have Tremor Sense, so it may as well be spiders you're showing, and you're not 18 meters from any of them, and their aggro is linked, and in so far as I'm aware, always has been.

I gave a screenshot elsewhere explaining loosely how far 18 metre was within the thread: U45 Preview 1: Balance Changes Main Thread, [Post #162].

[...] So now they are suggesting both 'audible' and 'visual' detection ranges should be both strangely set to 18 metres. The distance of 18 metres is nearly the length of two double-decker Buses or close to the length of a Railway Train, boxcar, railroad carriage. ...

I didn't bother doing loads of Preview U45 testing. Albeit I did two of the R.O.G.U.E Part Quatre: Call for Stealthy Players! Stealth Challenges (Level 16: Invisible Stalker: Through a Mirror Darkly, no kills prior to elevator ride) and (Level 12: The Bauble Purser: Maraud the Mines, no kills) as I didn't have much time... I did also go into another couple of quests and noticed no real significant difference. For the obvious reasons my Assassin has no issue getting within 18 metres to kill generic mobs. LOL

I agree, the proposed change lowering of the Monster's detection distance (when in Sneak) is very strange...

[Ashlayna]

Ashlayna, I was just showing the new "pretty purple eyes" in that image; it was nothing to do with distance or aggravation - I probably wasn't being clear. :-)



I gave a screenshot elsewhere explaining loosely how far 18 metre was within the thread: U45 Preview 1: Balance Changes Main Thread, [Post #162].



I didn't bother doing loads of Preview U45 testing. Albeit I did two of the R.O.G.U.E Part Quatre: Call for Stealthy Players! Stealth Challenges (Level 16: Invisible Stalker: Through a Mirror Darkly, no kills prior to elevator ride) and (Level 12: The Bauble Purser: Maraud the Mines, no kills) as I didn't have much time... I did also go into another couple of quests and noticed no real significant difference. For the obvious reasons my Assassin has no issue getting within 18 metres to kill generic mobs. LOL

I agree, the proposed change lowering of the Monster's detection distance (when in Sneak) is very strange...

I see, and yes, I didn't get that from the post. While I do have an endgame focused assassin, the ranged changes are having a greater impact on my future builds, and thus, it's where I've been dedicating my time.