Some notes about balance changes

[Severlin]

Greetings,

Thank you for the feedback on our current Lamannia deployment. I wanted to clarify some things and respond to some player feedback.

There has been some concern by players, based on the wording of some of our notes, that the Hardcore server is prompting us to make balance changes that we otherwise wouldn’t consider. All of our balance changes are aimed at the game as a whole. We do want players playing on the Hardcore server to have consistent play during the season and to be able to adopt strategies that won’t drastically change, and we did mean to say that we plan to target balance changes so they mostly happen between Hardcore seasons. We don’t want balance changes to be driven by Hardcore play.

For the ranged pass, we have a few additional changes coming. The Archer’s Focus stance will be further reworked to address functionality concerns, and in addition will have a component that further increases its damage. Bows will get an additional exclusive buff to shore up their effectiveness when compared to other ranged options to prevent the style as a whole from experiencing a loss of DPS.

For the two handed pass, it is not our intention to lower single target damage for two handed styles. We will be working to make sure that doesn’t happen.

We are also reviewing changes to Dance of Death, and doing more testing to see how it compares to Cleave based builds.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

[Drwaz99]

Thank you for your quarterly visit to the forums. Too bad it takes the place going up in flames for it to happen. As to the rest, we shall see what happens. If history is our guide, I won't get my hopes up.

[Arkat]

Dear Severlin,

The fact you (SSG) seem to be rolling concerns about Hardcore play into how we play on the non-hardcore servers is concerning.

The simple fact is it would have been wiser (and more fair) to develop the two games on two different tracks despite the fact it would take more resources to do so.

If you can't support the two games separately, I'd suggest supporting only one of them. Either that, or balance the game completely around the non-hardcore experience, as I'm reasonably sure that's where the lion's share of your revenue is derived, and don't worry so much about the hardcore game.

While we're talking about balance issues, perhaps the BIGGEST thing to throw game balance off so terribly wasn't Inquisitive or any other Class, Enhancement tree, or Epic Destiny. What's really thrown the balance off are the rewards for Reaper difficulty and the rewards from all the past lives. In the Ranged Pass thread, there is a post that perfectly illustrates my point. The poster has ALL the past lives and over 115 Reaper points. No wonder the game (even in R10 dungeons) is so easy for them!

In my humble opinion, address the "OPness" of the rewards for past lives and the rewards for Reaper play and I suspect you'll go a longer way towards balancing the game, as it stands now, rather than destroying people's builds - builds that, in some cases, allow newer players to be somewhat useful when playing with veterans who have accumulated the loot they have and conquered the steep learning curve of DDO and figured out the best ways to optimize their toons.

Regards,

JB

P.S. I get why you might not want to remove the past life rewards. TRing contributes heavily to your revenue stream, I'm sure. Perhaps you could just tone them down a bit?

Reaper rewards (Reaper points) are a completely different matter, however.

[Deathmaster35]

The fact you (SSG) seem to be rolling concerns about Hardcore play into how we play on the non-hardcore servers is concerning.

what? you didnt appear to read what he wrote... he said the timing is based on hardcore seasons, not the balance itself. They will be doing balance changes between hardcore seasons

[Neo-Masamune]

I love this game! and being an archer with long/shortbows has been a lot of fun all those years! thank you for reconsider some of the changes! being Arcane Archer is by far the most fun class out there!



I'm Woodyheart, from Cannith!

[Loromir]

The simple fact is it would have been wiser (and more fair) to develop the two games on two different tracks despite the fact it would take more resources to do so.

...or....choose your words more wisely and don't even mention the hardcore server. Would have saved a ton of heat.

[Komradkillingmachine]

...or....choose your words more wisely and don't even mention the hardcore server. Would have saved a ton of heat.

They thought 99% of the players would get all hot and bothered for Hardcore season 2. ROFLMAO!!!

Talk about being out of touch with your ever-diminishing playerbase!

[DRoark]

We don’t want balance changes to be driven by Hardcore play.

Sev~

That ship has long since sailed. There's a long history of "fixes" that are in fact, made because of Reaper builds, and unbalanced and
badly thought out enhancements. The latest round of hammering to ranged, is a direct result of BOTH reaper and the Inquisitor meta.
They have frequently posted about making things a "challenge for players", which directly addresses hardcore/reaper players, and
bombing normal players into paste is the result... every... single... time.

If regular players can plainly see this, why doesn't the design team even notice before it's cripplingly too late?

[PsychoBlonde]

That ship has long since sailed. There's a long history of "fixes" that are in fact, made because of Reaper builds, and unbalanced and
badly thought out enhancements. The latest round of hammering to ranged, is a direct result of BOTH reaper and the Inquisitor meta.
They have frequently posted about making things a "challenge for players", which directly addresses hardcore/reaper players, and
bombing normal players into paste is the result... every... single... time.

If regular players can plainly see this, why doesn't the design team even notice before it's cripplingly too late?

It's sad you can't tell the difference between problems that are *exposed* by the high-stress environment of Hardcore or Reaper, and problems that are CAUSED by Hardcore/Reaper.

The game being hugely unbalanced and only a few builds being viable is a UNIVERSAL PROBLEM that affects EVERYONE on EVERY difficulty. The gap may be more apparent in high-stress play, but it still *exists* when you're trolloping around in explore zones one-shotting everything and giggling about how badass you are. You only NOTICE it when you try to join a group to do more-difficult content and you realize that your character is completely outclassed and can't even begin to keep up. Then you effectively demand that the devs give you a new kitchen because your fridge has some three-month-old Chinese takeout in the back, and you complain when what THEY want to do is to get rid of the rotting food instead of spending $15,000 replacing the KITCHEN.

What the devs are trying to do, is to make it so that EVERYONE's characters have the potential to be viable in high-stress combat, and your complaint is that they're taking your automatic easy button away because you might actually have to learn how to play the game? Yeah, you're not going to get a lot of sympathy out of anyone, sorry. The whole point of a game that involves complex character building is *that it involves complex character building*.

[DRoark]

...your complaint is that they're taking your automatic easy button away because you might actually have to learn how to play the game?

I mentioned myself there, where exactly? Reading is hard, because... like, words.

Me hitting one button on my caster is "easy mode". Ranged don't deserve a blanket IPS nerf, INQ just needed a little tweak.

[palladin9479]

I mentioned myself there, where exactly? Reading is hard, because... like, words.

Me hitting one button on my caster is "easy mode". Ranged don't deserve a blanket IPS nerf, INQ just needed a little tweak.

Yeah they seem to want to be "creative" instead of just solving the root cause. Inquisitive was what's known as a First Order Optimal Solution (FOOS), which just means that it's both easy to master and more effective then every other option.

Extra Credits goes into this and how this becomes a game designer trap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

Inquisitive's Dual Shooter is DDO's equivalent of a noobtube with infinite ammo that shoots two grenades per trigger pull. A inquisitive can just put a point in Dual Shooter and not spend a single AP in any tree, wear low level gear, and solo Reaper all the way to 30. This isn't hyperbole, I've seen someone do this on a side toon without many PL's just to prove a point.

[Xgya]

It's sad you can't tell the difference between problems that are *exposed* by the high-stress environment of Hardcore or Reaper, and problems that are CAUSED by Hardcore/Reaper.

*Spread more reputation*, yadda-yadda.

Still, QFT (the whole post, really).

[TheMaxpower]

Sev: Will you please tell us approximately how many times per year SSG plans to activate the HC League? You owe it to your customers to reveal this information. Here is why. Some players plan to take a break from the game the next time it is activated b/c some of the live servers become ghost towns during the event. If you plan to run it multiple times per year, that could impact peoples' decisions regarding subscriptions, one way or the other.

Thank you in advance. Love the game, but don't understand some of the decision making.

[WNxDaCraw]

Sev: Will you please tell us approximately how many times per year SSG plans to activate the HC League? You owe it to your customers to reveal this information. Here is why. Some players plan to take a break from the game the next time it is activated b/c some of the live servers become ghost towns during the event. If you plan to run it multiple times per year, that could impact peoples' decisions regarding subscriptions, one way or the other.

Thank you in advance. Love the game, but don't understand some of the decision making.

That's because the mad a truck load of fast cash on the HC server. Until it was over i did not understand how many players were dumping cash for +7/+8 supreme tomes and shards for gold rolls. So they will listen to the money and not the old stand buy player base who does not dump money on there heads to get there attention.

[Kinerd]

What the devs are trying to do, is to make it so that EVERYONE's characters have the potential to be viable in high-stress combat, and your complaint is that they're taking your automatic easy button away because you might actually have to learn how to play the game? Yeah, you're not going to get a lot of sympathy out of anyone, sorry. The whole point of a game that involves complex character building is *that it involves complex character building*.

how do you rectify this assessment with ranger getting heavily nerfed?

[Dreppo]

It's sad you can't tell the difference between problems that are *exposed* by the high-stress environment of Hardcore or Reaper, and problems that are CAUSED by Hardcore/Reaper.

The game being hugely unbalanced and only a few builds being viable is a UNIVERSAL PROBLEM that affects EVERYONE on EVERY difficulty. The gap may be more apparent in high-stress play, but it still *exists* when you're trolloping around in explore zones one-shotting everything and giggling about how badass you are. You only NOTICE it when you try to join a group to do more-difficult content and you realize that your character is completely outclassed and can't even begin to keep up. Then you effectively demand that the devs give you a new kitchen because your fridge has some three-month-old Chinese takeout in the back, and you complain when what THEY want to do is to get rid of the rotting food instead of spending $15,000 replacing the KITCHEN.

What the devs are trying to do, is to make it so that EVERYONE's characters have the potential to be viable in high-stress combat, and your complaint is that they're taking your automatic easy button away because you might actually have to learn how to play the game? Yeah, you're not going to get a lot of sympathy out of anyone, sorry. The whole point of a game that involves complex character building is *that it involves complex character building*.

Beautifully put.

Hardcore has given SSG a good testing ground for determining survivability. A couple of reasons why:

1) It can be fairly assumed that everyone on the hardcore server is actually trying to stay alive (as opposed to piking and getting killed by a reaper spawn, dying intentionally in Storm Horns to get a "taxi", etc.).
2) Since everyone is starting from scratch, the effects of having multiple past lives, possession of twink gear, etc. are greatly reduced if not eliminated.

Kudos to SSG for using this actionable data to improve the game.

[Cernunan]

Beautifully put.

Hardcore has given SSG a good testing ground for determining survivability. A couple of reasons why:

1) It can be fairly assumed that everyone on the hardcore server is actually trying to stay alive (as opposed to piking and getting killed by a reaper spawn, dying intentionally in Storm Horns to get a "taxi", etc.).
2) Since everyone is starting from scratch, the effects of having multiple past lives, possession of twink gear, etc. are greatly reduced if not eliminated.

Kudos to SSG for using this actionable data to improve the game.

None of which actually applies to the non hardcore servers, as the conditions you posted do not actually exist on live, so the game is being balanced not for the real live servers, but the part time HC servers. So the balance is flawed, the data is not real balance, it is just for the HC experience which doesn't take into account all the real playing experience of most servers.

Or did you do all of the raids on elite on the HC server? No, you did not, because you cannot balance for raids which are balanced for current REAL server metas. A pretend permadeath lite server is not ideal for real server balance as it doesn't have a real server power level in the equation.

[Ashlayna]

It's sad you can't tell the difference between problems that are *exposed* by the high-stress environment of Hardcore or Reaper, and problems that are CAUSED by Hardcore/Reaper.

The game being hugely unbalanced and only a few builds being viable is a UNIVERSAL PROBLEM that affects EVERYONE on EVERY difficulty. The gap may be more apparent in high-stress play, but it still *exists* when you're trolloping around in explore zones one-shotting everything and giggling about how badass you are. You only NOTICE it when you try to join a group to do more-difficult content and you realize that your character is completely outclassed and can't even begin to keep up. Then you effectively demand that the devs give you a new kitchen because your fridge has some three-month-old Chinese takeout in the back, and you complain when what THEY want to do is to get rid of the rotting food instead of spending $15,000 replacing the KITCHEN.

What the devs are trying to do, is to make it so that EVERYONE's characters have the potential to be viable in high-stress combat, and your complaint is that they're taking your automatic easy button away because you might actually have to learn how to play the game? Yeah, you're not going to get a lot of sympathy out of anyone, sorry. The whole point of a game that involves complex character building is *that it involves complex character building*.

...and the best way to accomplish that is to nuke underperforming builds from orbit. Check. Yeah, my assassin was totally killing melee playstyles whilst using throwing daggers on perched mobs with Precise Shot... In case you didn't catch that, Archer's Focus drops all stacks when you change targets now, instead of from movement, so in quests like Maraud the Mines, I may as well have not invested in the feat, except it sure helps kill the ranged mob, even if a melee mob gets between me and it...

[Lencrennis]

That ship has long since sailed. There's a long history of "fixes" that are in fact, made because of Reaper builds, and unbalanced and
badly thought out enhancements. The latest round of hammering to ranged, is a direct result of BOTH reaper and the Inquisitor meta.
They have frequently posted about making things a "challenge for players", which directly addresses hardcore/reaper players, and
bombing normal players into paste is the result... every... single... time.

If regular players can plainly see this, why doesn't the design team even notice before it's cripplingly too late?

Ivory tower game design. Consider, if you look at Lynnabel, she's slowly shifted to blaming us for her own mistakes, until she outright refused to post named items on the forums because we had gone after her for bombing the researcher set, among other bits of work, in the past, and didn't want to deal with the negative feedback from people who were more familiar with gear Tetris than she is. The others are far more entrenched, as they're the ones who taught her the culture, so extrapolate this to the people building your systems.

[Lynnabel]

Ivory tower game design. Consider, if you look at Lynnabel, she's slowly shifted to blaming us for her own mistakes, until she outright refused to post named items on the forums because we had gone after her for bombing the researcher set, among other bits of work, in the past, and didn't want to deal with the negative feedback from people who were more familiar with gear Tetris than she is. The others are far more entrenched, as they're the ones who taught her the culture, so extrapolate this to the people building your systems.

but that's not what happened at all we just wanted to get feedback from people who had tried the items out in game. I don't know where I've ever implied anything that I've done wrong has been the player's fault, and if I have I sincerely apologize.