U45 Preview 1: Revamped "Catacombs" and "Delera's Tomb"

[GoldyGopher]

XP - the quests are low on XP/second in comparison to other level 3 quests and even lower in XP/second when looking at Level 2 or Level 4 quests. The entire chain gave me between 10 and 14 XP/Second. In general on life other Level 3 quests fall between 15 and 20, level 2 and level 4 quests land about 25 XP/Second.
To make the XP worth while it needs to be upped by about 20% on the base XP on Normal Hard and Elite. Not sure on Casual.

Random Loot. Running a level 3 Character, with a Medium Loot Gem, I had horrible luck pulling Random loot and end rewards. My luck was so bad I barely pulled any Level 3 items and no Level 4 or 5 items even though I should have been on the Level 6 loot table.

Named Loot. As I wrote in the Named Loot Thread, all these items should be Min Power Level 4 Items (5 prefered) rather then the Min Power Level 3 items with Armor and Weapons being Min Level 2.

Location - In PnP the Keep of the Silver Flame is located near the Livewood Theater (in what DDO Calls the House Phairlan Enclave) rather than the Marketplace. With Level 3 quests the location is a barrier to running the content more. By the time you clear the harbor you have out leveled these quests, with their low XP, Low Reaper XP, power level 3 loot, and some challenging quest play, you should strongly consider moving the Keep of the Silver Flame to the Harbor.

Level - Level 3 is a challenging spot in the game for content. Players completing level 2 quests in the harbor have a number of options, some of which gets kind of funky with Tangleroot and SHan-to-kor. I hope keeping Catacombs level 3 indicates that you would like to standardize the levels in Tangleroot and Shan-to-kor up in the 5 to 6 range.

[capsela]

Saturday, Saturday, Saturday!

Huntington Civic Arena

Delera vs Marguerite

Battle of the Dead Girls

No Holds Barred Dead Girl Action

Kid seats only $5

[Aelonwy]

This will be long but there will be images for the easily distracted.
Ran on EH with a capped character just to get a feel for the changes.

For starters, I love the alterations to the Silverflame tower. I immensely enjoyed the more in-depth lore of the catacombs story line. I felt better about the addition of Thaddeus, the Shadow Demon, and the flamingskull Gerard - than that Marguerite's own father would be so intentionally cruel to her. It also made more coherent sense overall with the other Silverflame priests expecting Marguerite to exhibit signs of divine influence than the weird Archbishop's mad daughter story before.

FYI the nice new vendor in the tower has a string table error in her conversation.


No bats. Thank you so much! The Corrupted Spiderlings (look like miniature or baby Fiendish Spiders) are a nice addition. I like the change with the shadows too as it completely makes sense with the Duality and the Silver Flame. And best yet, the more in-depth story for Fitz (and a voice-over prayer no less) with the clever little alchemy tie-in AND the early Silverflame vs. lycanthropy history! OMGosh someone is an excellent DM! Gold Star.



What was this about though?
(Dungeon Master): A flicker of blue light draws your eyes down into the courtyard below. Something is looking back.
By the time the message triggered I was almost into the next hallway. I went back and looked and looked through the bars to the lower level but I never saw anything.

I liked the guy showing up at the completion of the quest to give my quest reward and give me the next quest. However, with the loot now dropping in the end chests, this will be difficult to get any particular item without repeating the entire series every time. Or am I missing something?

I appreciate the changes to the library quest too. There is just so much more lore and depth to this chain now. The Silverflame symbols to indicate the hiding places of the forbidden texts were a nice touch as were the messages scrawled in blood. Nice foreshadowing there. In the Dryden family tomb quest I liked the keeper's note with key chest and the changed ending with ghouls/ghasts rather than skeletons and searching the sarcophagus for remains. Missing one skull, oh well done.

I think I was already beginning to suspect Thaddeus by the end of the library quest. And really for nothing more than the thought "gee this guy certainly knows a lot of secret passages in and around this place."

Some Thaddeus typos at the end of Dryden family crypt:

Should be sent & make.


Should be too (as in also).


Setting the Wards: The Lower Cathedral & Patriarchs Crypt. Okay there were some significant changes here. Unlike others I approve the altar change from the generic square table things to the Silverflame fireplaces. It makes sense to me that an altar to the Silverflame is flaming. I like the shadow enemies too because of the story. I do wish some of these had been wraiths though. I don't know but I find wraiths more fearful than wight casters, in both action and appearance. The traps over the water troughs... hmm... these were more problematic (for a non-trapping character) because the breakables on the edge of the water troughs and the low ceiling there made timing the traps awkward. Can we get those breakables moved or removed? Was there always a message about blood being splattered on the wards or was that new? It seemed new and very intriguing. The only thing I might have changed about this quest is to make the lighting darker and more atmospheric.

At the end of the Patriarchs Crypt in the dialogue with Marguerite I only got to ask her one question and she didn't really answer it because she immediately had her possession attack. Does it not matter what response you click on because that is her only response? Or had I chosen a different conversation option would I have gotten a little information before the inevitable?

I also didn't get an end chest at the end of Patriarchs Crypt. I don't know if I just didn't see it on my headlong dash to get to the door or if that one doesn't have an end chest or what.

Endgame: Marguerite
This shadow demon possession made so much more sense than her becoming a wraith and her conversation in this quest just explained SO, so much. It was wonderful to learn the true extent and backstory of this character and her family. Not many changes otherwise except the end fight. Good job.


Should be no apostrophe s, should just be "That"

Endgame: Archbishop's Fate
Oh wow. Now that's a quest series end fight. I will miss the impressiveness of the Archbishop's throne and dais but all in all this room now looks like it belongs in the Silverflame tower more than did the previous throne room. If I have a quibble its that the Archbishop of the Silverflame is dressed in a robe that looks like it came from a Korthos reject pile. Its a common robe appearance and he is NOT a commoner. Give him something Silverflame-esque that reflects his power and position please?



Friar Renau's end conversation, love the more in-depth information. One last typo.


Think it should be "Would it surprise you"

TL;DR
Overall I found the changes thoroughly enjoyable and approve. I wonder though if the heroic quests now wouldn't be better placed in the overall scheme and level ranges of the game at level 4 or 5. Assuming of course that the Endgame Archbishop's Fate has been changed in heroic to match the epic changes (I only ran epic) the end fight has a flaming skull and glabrezu in it. That just doesn't say level 3/4 to me but if the early quests were 4 and it ended on 5 that would make somewhat more sense. Also would have liked to see more shadows/wraiths in the end fight rather than skeletons because of the story between the Duality and the Silverflame.

I will try to run Delera's today but I just don't know if I will have the time and opportunity.

[Aelonwy]

Okay with exception of changing the lever that used to have to be pulled 3x in the 2nd Delera's quest, and the end reward lists, nothing else changed really. No new lore, no new baddies, not even some new set decoration. Underwhelming... and not a little bit disappointing.

This is the LEVEL 27 end reward list from Derek Grospic after the third quest:


The only end reward after 3 epic quests ...and its a lousy level 1 item? Lame.

This is all Delera offers in her chain end reward:


Also disappointing.

I don't know what to say. I was so impressed with all the work done to E. Catacombs. E. Delera's feels meh. Worse than meh.

[Wanatuc]

I would like to see something like the Masters Gift as end reward for Delera's or a Better voice of the master like +10% XP starting at like level 8

[Blase]

Ran through both of them during my alchemist leveling process (made it to 12).

Catacombs revamp (Heroic) is very nice. The story flows better now, and the little touches (being told where to search for the hidden pieces of the duality scrolls, needing to find the seals) really make a difference.

Deleras didn't seem to have any changes beyond a single lever switch up, from 1 lever to 3. Hopefully more revamping will come in the next preview.

[Shoemaker]

Seems like this would have been a good opportunity to squeeze the levels down to something more sensible. Like 6/7/7/7/7 or 5/6/6/6/7. Instead of sticking with a 5 (or 4+1, in truth) quest chain spread over 4 levels?

I as well would like to see an improvement here. I'd be fine with 6/7/7/7/8 or even 7/7/8/8/8 myself.

[Talon_Dragonsbane]

Nevermind. Just saw the post of new NPC to make it easier to advance the quests chain for Catacombs.

[Starla70]

Did not get to delara's. I agree put Drydan's chambers back. It is such a step down. He could be in silver flame robes, so something totally different. I am hoping there are more choices in end rewards when it goes live.

[AbyssalMage]

I have a mechanical request.

Please make the baby spiders in E-Catacombs bigger and or more noticeable. I didn't progress far as they simply "ate" me because I couldn't see/notice them approach. My first warning was often a scrolling 125+ damage announcement followed by me looking around my screen looking for a skeleton archer. Then noticing another 2 or 3 scrolling damage reports as I quickly backed up and "circled" looking for where the damage was coming from. Finally I would spot the little <bleep bleep bleep> and try to kill them.


As others have already stated. The adventure pack doesn't act like this is a level 25 adventure (on EE) but something closer to Legendary. Hopefully you will tone it down so it will be enjoyable for players doing this at the correct level.

[Claver]

Saturday, Saturday, Saturday!

Huntington Civic Arena

Is that Huntington, West Virginia?

I'm pretty sure I saw a Hockey fight there

[Ausdoerrt]

Here's how it looks on Live for reference:

Hmm, a tough choice. I do like the new graphic - it's bigger and more majestic. But does look a bit too much like the Temple of the Sovereign Host. And does not make much sense architecturally, since that one's a big building, and this one should be a small underground chamber.

And the old one is also one of my fav screenshot locations in the game.

I wonder if there's a way to keep both in the game?

I don't know what to say. I was so impressed with all the work done to E. Catacombs. E. Delera's feels meh. Worse than meh.

I think the "epification" just exposed the issues with the original chain. Everyone's just so used to breezing through it on full auto they never paid attention to the pack's many issues, and how outdated it's become.

I also think it's been a bit overrated from the start because Gary Gygax. Never liked Delera's in terms of lore or the tedious quest mechanics, but it's always been the one you just "have to" do because it has good XP and items.

[Aelonwy]

Hmm, a tough choice. I do like the new graphic - it's bigger and more majestic. But does look a bit too much like the Temple of the Sovereign Host. And does not make much sense architecturally, since that one's a big building, and this one should be a small underground chamber.

What do you mean underground? The Archbishop's chamber has always been at the top of the stairs, at the top of the tower. And if you look closely the room is essentially the same. Look at the walls, look at the ceiling, look at the overall spatial relationships. What has been changed is that there is no longer this tall dais with a throne, at the top of a medium sized stair looking down on approaching petitioners. They could still have a little more of this element of prestige if they brought the stage he is currently on up a little maybe adding a few steps but not an entire stair. It definitely makes better sense with the symbol of the Silverflame behind him than it did in the past with some still unknown banner.

I think the "epification" just exposed the issues with the original chain. Everyone's just so used to breezing through it on full auto they never paid attention to the pack's many issues, and how outdated it's become.

I also think it's been a bit overrated from the start because Gary Gygax. Never liked Delera's in terms of lore or the tedious quest mechanics, but it's always been the one you just "have to" do because it has good XP and items.

I like Delera's just fine but after all the changes to E Catacombs it got my expectations up and I was expecting something. More lore certainly, in a mausoleum dedicated to Delera there is precious little that says anything about her whatsoever. No statuary, no murals, nothing. There were no new or changed mobs. At least the big bad necromancer could have been changed to a vampire or a lich or something more impressive. Also Delera never really responds to anything we say about the Hargo Kimmare side-story so it serves no purpose and means very little. And if the big, tough, hit-man is so spooked by ghost stories what's he doing hanging out in a graveyard?

[PsychoBlonde]

Hmm, a tough choice. I do like the new graphic - it's bigger and more majestic. But does look a bit too much like the Temple of the Sovereign Host. And does not make much sense architecturally, since that one's a big building, and this one should be a small underground chamber.

And the old one is also one of my fav screenshot locations in the game.

I wonder if there's a way to keep both in the game?

Hmm. Technically you only need to go in there twice now--once to advance the quest and once for the end fight, since the quests are for the most part now self-advancing. So what you could do would be that when you go in there to TALK to him, you see the first one with the Silver Flame shield.

Then, when you go in there for the end fight, there's a blast and the big dark throne appears and you have the big fight.

Or something like that.

Also, personally, I think the most silver-flame-looking stuff in the game is the blue-white glow of the mirror puzzle beam, so if you want some real silver flame aesthetics, use that in there somewhere.

[PsychoBlonde]

What do you mean underground?

The name "catacombs" kinda implies underground, but you are correct that the building is not and never really has been notably underground. It's more of a tower, only some of which is underground.

This entire pack has always been rather messy from a lore standpoint because the name makes no sense. Catacombs are *subterrenean* passageways for religious uses. This is a.) a tower and b.) an insane asylum/jail/crypt? But there's ANOTHER asylum on the other side of the Marketplace that's part of the quest Sane Asylum?

[Greantun]

Okay with exception of changing the lever that used to have to be pulled 3x in the 2nd Delera's quest, and the end reward lists, nothing else changed really. No new lore, no new baddies, not even some new set decoration. Underwhelming... and not a little bit disappointing.

This is the LEVEL 27 end reward list from Derek Grospic after the third quest:


The only end reward after 3 epic quests ...and its a lousy level 1 item? Lame.

This is all Delera offers in her chain end reward:


Also disappointing.

I don't know what to say. I was so impressed with all the work done to E. Catacombs. E. Delera's feels meh. Worse than meh.

I Basically got the same items from the chain end reward (except the seeds because I was level 28). However, I ran all but the capstone on HN, and then the capstone on EE and still got the epic chain rewards.

So now a quick way to get the deleras end rewards?

[Aelonwy]

The name "catacombs" kinda implies underground, but you are correct that the building is not and never really has been notably underground. It's more of a tower, only some of which is underground.

This entire pack has always been rather messy from a lore standpoint because the name makes no sense. Catacombs are *subterrenean* passageways for religious uses. This is a.) a tower and b.) an insane asylum/jail/crypt? But there's ANOTHER asylum on the other side of the Marketplace that's part of the quest Sane Asylum?

I love the Sane Asylum. That's one of my faves. "What color is MY butterfly, Dirk?" Really, I want to know!

You are so right though - asylum, jail, library- not exactly what you think of in a catacombs. To be fair those rooms are more or less on the ground floor of the tower.
The name only makes sense in that we do go into the bowels of the tower and we do explore some underground passages namely in the Setting the Wards: The Lower Cathedral & Patriarchs Crypt but I suppose the Dryden family crypts are essentially catacombs as well. Burial and laying the dead to final rest are usually considered a religious purpose.

[PsychoBlonde]

I Basically got the same items from the chain end reward (except the seeds because I was level 28). However, I ran all but the capstone on HN, and then the capstone on EE and still got the epic chain rewards.

So now a quick way to get the deleras end rewards?

Oh, that reminds me . . . there's still nothing that TELLS you to go talk to Delera to get your chain end reward. You just have to sorta . . . know.

Honestly, if they actually had the time to do it, they should get rid of that idiotic "Return to Delera's Tomb" one-room broken obnoxious sub-quest THING and use the phasing technology they have in the Harbor for the Demonweb portal to make Delera appear next to Hargo Kimmare when you're on the right stage of the quest (or basically she just permanently shows up there when you're flagged for that part of the chain). Put a big yellow check over her head when she's ready to give you an end reward and now you can tell what the heck is going on with that whole quest setup without having to read a page and a half of wiki notes.

[Aelonwy]

Oh, that reminds me . . . there's still nothing that TELLS you to go talk to Delera to get your chain end reward. You just have to sorta . . . know.

Honestly, if they actually had the time to do it, they should get rid of that idiotic "Return to Delera's Tomb" one-room broken obnoxious sub-quest THING and use the phasing technology they have in the Harbor for the Demonweb portal to make Delera appear next to Hargo Kimmare when you're on the right stage of the quest (or basically she just permanently shows up there when you're flagged for that part of the chain). Put a big yellow check over her head when she's ready to give you an end reward and now you can tell what the heck is going on with that whole quest setup without having to read a page and a half of wiki notes.

Hold on! If she's going to show up next to Hargo... I want him to run away like the big chicken he is!

[Ausdoerrt]

The name "catacombs" kinda implies underground, but you are correct that the building is not and never really has been notably underground. It's more of a tower, only some of which is underground.

I guess I never paid too much attention to how the building looks from the outside. I guess the top part might be a tower.

That said, at least the quests are definitely located underground, there is even a sort of vague floor plan pictured in the loading screens. I think that's it in the middle - or am I mistaken? https://ddowiki.com/images/L_Catacombs.jpg

Definitely Waterworks on the right, not sure what's on the left.

But funny thing, the loading screen also refers to it as a Sanctuary, with "Catacombs" being a vernacular name. Talk about confusing