U45 Preview 1: Balance: Two Handed Fighting Changes

[SirValentine]

• One of the things we are actively trying to do in this Update is more heavily weight AOE weapon damage toward Two Handed Fighting.

I'm confused. How are you trying to accomplish this AoE for THF?

Because I've only noticed is you taking away THF's true AoE Glancing blows, and instead just giving them 2-target Strike-through (maybe 3, maybe only 1, depending on Stuff). How is that not vastly less effective at AoE than Glancing blows hitting all of say 6 or 10 mobs?

[palladin9479]

Wait, if this is about two handed fighting why in the flying ****ing hell is ranger's Dance of Death involved?

Seriously, why the hell are you severely nerfing Tempest Ranger to ... rework Two Handed Fighting? That's very poorly thought out, whomever's idea it was along with their immediate supervisor needs a serious talking to about second and third order effects. Changes like that are why the games code is spaghetti like.

[palladin9479]

This is some really excellent feedback, thank you.

You guys need stop trying to be creative and just address the math issues, which is driving everything else. THF greatly suffers against both TWF and SWF, hell even Sword and Board, because of one reason and one reason alone, attack speed. Increasing the THF attack speed, something like 5% per combat style feat, alone would remedy many of the issues experienced. Raising the stat bonus to 2.0, since your handing out 1.5 to SWF and 2 x 1.0 to TWF, would then make things even.

You got yourselves to blame since you balanced the game around reaper difficulty with Inquisitive's.

[Hulligan]

If we are talking about melee balance (I'm not entirely sure if on THF needs balanced or ALL melee archetypes) but i feel it's not (only) the damage that prevents people to chose any of the melee builds nowadays.
Staying alive and aggro management is also a big part in it.
Casters and ranged can take out enemies from a distance without the fear of getting hit back while a melee can be 100% sure that a strikeback will occur sooner or later and survival matters.

So to sum up the ranged advantages ... or rather the disadvantage a melee has:
1. ranged/caster can dps from distance, w/o being hit
2. ranged/casters are better NOT getting hit ... far better and more reliable than melee
- arcane casters have blur / displacement
- ranged, rogue have (improved) uncanny dodge
- various (non melee) builds have incorporeal chance (no, a melee wizard is still considered a caster class)
- ranged / cloth,robe users generally have higher dodge as their max dodge is also higher
3. ranged / casters can kite enemies, running away from being hit while still doing damage
4. ranged / casters have easy access to 'crowd control' options. Some of them have simple DCs, some are even working on pushing a button (no save like pin, otto). Such alternatives are simply non-existent for a melee or require much more efforts (stun, trip) with less effect (pin, otto, masshold may work on multiple targets).
5. ranged / casters can still build up almost the same defenses (prr, mrr) a melee can with little effort and enjoy the same or close to same bonuses (due to the fact that prr, mrr are exponentially losing strength)

My understanding of a melee (fighter, paladin, even barbarian) is about not avoiding being hit, not even having zounds of HP (who cares if you have 7000HP when you still die in 2 hits) but enduring being hit. PRR system is good on it's own, but the 3 main melee dps classes should have some sort of stacking damage mitigation (one that works on a percentage bases to work on any levels and stacks with PRR/MRR). Some sort of always active form and some sort of boost form, such as:
* passive: PRR and MRR of medium and heavy armor and shield are doubled
* active ability: all incoming damages get reduced by [CHAR lvl]% but movement speed is halved. 20 seconds duration, 2 mins timer.
I'd put it into core18 or tier4 somewhere and only for fighter, paladin and barbarian.
It's a shame really that a wizard or a warlock, or an artificer or even a sorcerer is a better tank than any DEFENDER.

Melee types could also recive auto-knockdown or auto-stun on vorpal rolls (as part of GTHF, GTWF or GSWF) as well as on-click cc (the barbarian occult slayer has the ear smash with knockout is a pretty good on-click cc, a little bit expansive tough). if it would be cheaper (6 AP currently, 2 AP would be better) and available to fighter and paladin too, that would be nice.

If the above is not addressed EVER, no matter how big dps a melee can deliver to no matter how many targets, it will still fail.
Please think about it.

[Kaboom2112]

Wait, if this is about two handed fighting why in the flying ****ing hell is ranger's Dance of Death involved?

Seriously, why the hell are you severely nerfing Tempest Ranger to ... rework Two Handed Fighting? That's very poorly thought out, whomever's idea it was along with their immediate supervisor needs a serious talking to about second and third order effects. Changes like that are why the games code is spaghetti like.

Words cannot describe how stupid these changes are.

[Kaboom2112]

You guys need stop trying to be creative and just address the math issues, which is driving everything else. THF greatly suffers against both TWF and SWF, hell even Sword and Board, because of one reason and one reason alone, attack speed. Increasing the THF attack speed, something like 5% per combat style feat, alone would remedy many of the issues experienced. Raising the stat bonus to 2.0, since your handing out 1.5 to SWF and 2 x 1.0 to TWF, would then make things even.

You got yourselves to blame since you balanced the game around reaper difficulty with Inquisitive's.

This is a a way more intelligent idea than any of the proposed changes.

[Kinerd]

If we are talking about melee balance (I'm not entirely sure if on THF needs balanced or ALL melee archetypes) but i feel it's not (only) the damage that prevents people to chose any of the melee builds nowadays.
Staying alive and aggro management is also a big part in it.
Casters and ranged can take out enemies from a distance without the fear of getting hit back while a melee can be 100% sure that a strikeback will occur sooner or later and survival matters.

So to sum up the ranged advantages ... or rather the disadvantage a melee has:
1. ranged/caster can dps from distance, w/o being hit
2. ranged/casters are better NOT getting hit ... far better and more reliable than melee
- arcane casters have blur / displacement
- ranged, rogue have (improved) uncanny dodge
- various (non melee) builds have incorporeal chance (no, a melee wizard is still considered a caster class)
- ranged / cloth,robe users generally have higher dodge as their max dodge is also higher
3. ranged / casters can kite enemies, running away from being hit while still doing damage
4. ranged / casters have easy access to 'crowd control' options. Some of them have simple DCs, some are even working on pushing a button (no save like pin, otto). Such alternatives are simply non-existent for a melee or require much more efforts (stun, trip) with less effect (pin, otto, masshold may work on multiple targets).
5. ranged / casters can still build up almost the same defenses (prr, mrr) a melee can with little effort and enjoy the same or close to same bonuses (due to the fact that prr, mrr are exponentially losing strength)

My understanding of a melee (fighter, paladin, even barbarian) is about not avoiding being hit, not even having zounds of HP (who cares if you have 7000HP when you still die in 2 hits) but enduring being hit. PRR system is good on it's own, but the 3 main melee dps classes should have some sort of stacking damage mitigation (one that works on a percentage bases to work on any levels and stacks with PRR/MRR). Some sort of always active form and some sort of boost form, such as:
* passive: PRR and MRR of medium and heavy armor and shield are doubled
* active ability: all incoming damages get reduced by [CHAR lvl]% but movement speed is halved. 20 seconds duration, 2 mins timer.
I'd put it into core18 or tier4 somewhere and only for fighter, paladin and barbarian.
It's a shame really that a wizard or a warlock, or an artificer or even a sorcerer is a better tank than any DEFENDER.

If the above is not addressed EVER, no matter how big dps a melee can deliver to no matter how many targets, it will still fail.
Please think about it.

you know seeing it all together like this, i'm reminded that the power of incorporeality is that it multiplies with everything. so why not just add a "sturdiness" effect for armor type? heavy armor (with the feat) gives for example 50% damage reduction that is multiplied by whatever we're getting from PRR/MRR, medium 70%, light 90%, cloth 100%. we already have dodge * incorp * concealment * AC * PRR, one more multiplicand isn't gonna break anyone's brain

[Hulligan]

so why not just add a "sturdiness" effect for armor type? heavy armor (with the feat) gives for example 50% damage reduction that is multiplied by whatever we're getting from PRR/MRR, medium 70%, light 90%, cloth 100%. we already have dodge * incorp * concealment * AC * PRR, one more multiplicand isn't gonna break anyone's brain

Because that would not solve the main problem. You would still see wizards and warlocks do the tanking only putting up heavy armor (or medium at least which they already do). Fighters would still be without displacement (unless from racial enhancement via dragonmark) and eat dirt.

[palladin9479]

Well incoming damage inside reaper, and these are really just reaper issues, need addressed. Right now the bonus damage monsters get inside Reaper is beyond stupid, like fire the developer stupid. That damage increase is the central reason the entire game shifted to Ranged / Caster builds with Inquisitive just pouring gasoline onto the fire. Inqusitives are the most optimal ranged build by a long shot and ranged / caster builds are the most effective way at doing "difficult" content, so put the two together and you have half the server running Inqusitives.

Here is an update that melee's need, a brand new feat called "Ranged Strikes" granted at level 1.

This feat extends the range of melee attacks out to maximum sight range.

*Bam*

I just "balanced" melee with ranged.

And if that seems a bit dramatic, well that is what every single ranged build does. Instead of an Inquisitive cheesing a ratcatcher I'm a Tempest Ranger cheesing long swords that hit at 100 feet, or a Barbarian cheesing with a Great Axe with the same 100 foot range.

[lyrecono]

Ok steel, i'll bite, what are you up to?
Why are you mucking about with 2hf?
Don't get me wrong, it needed help for a very long time now but why now all a sudden? And why in this manner? The few 2hf melees moved on to cleave type of aoe attacks to bypass slow and the horrible lagg issues, sure we might not be able to directly hit our enemies but those cleaves usually get them. They are often more reliable then auto attacking,
(Also all the objections to 2hf people have posted in this tread)

Honnestly, a better idea would be the following

2hf adds a 5 foot range, 0.5[w] to your 2handed melee weapon and cleave-like aoe attacks
I2hf adds a 5 foot range, 0.5[w] to your 2handed melee weapon and cleave-like aoe attacks
G2hf adds a 5 foot range, 0.5[w] and 2x your stat modifier instead of 1.5x to your 2handed melee weapon and cleave-like aoe attacks.
Perfect Two Handed Fighting adds either a [w] or .5 stat mod and 10 melee power

(half that range for b-sword and d-axa)
Make sure every mob cleaved can be critted and be doublestriked

This way melees can kite mobs around too......
On the other hand, maybe ad some defensive trick in there as well, no use to rework a playstyle if you can't afford to be surrounded in the first place

Just got home and am catching up on the thread. I like how lyrecono's suggestion directly ties the feats into attacks AND cleave attacks. Especially since it is stated that 2HF is supposed to be more aoe centric--then why not link it up w/the cleaves?

meh, it was just something i came up with during a coffee break, i never gave it a second thought.

to be honest?

i would make all the 2hf feats cleaves, with the added bonus i stated earlier, where you would be locked out of taking the actual cleave feats, but have them still count towards resetting lay waste.

Barbarian and paladin are both feat starved, it could help both out.


Keep in mind that the devs might not be able to read what i wrote, a few updates ago, some devs only responded to what i said when i got quoted by others, maybe there is a player ignore list?

[Bluenoser]

Regarding Dance of Death:

• Tempests have very strong single-target weapon damage; some of the best in the game. (I understand this point is debatable.)
• One of the things we are actively trying to do in this Update is more heavily weight AOE weapon damage toward Two Handed Fighting.
• It has been clear to us for quite some time that Tempest's ability to hit four targets simultaneously for full damage AND its very strong single-target output were not where we wanted them to be for balance. It should be very strong at single-target, OR less strong at single-target but able to do that damage across multiple targets, but not both.
• In shifting AOE toward Two Handed Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting's role becomes better defined as "strong single-target damage", and Dance of Death needed to be adjusted as a result.

We're game for adjusting it further in a number of ways; there have been good suggestions in this thread, including making it not require a hit first. We're going to poke at it a bit before Round 2.

In line with some posters above, there's a disconnect between Steelstar's comment and the larger context of combat "rebalancing" in U45. Melee is underperforming compared to ranged and casting, so let's dial down ranged. Ok, but the fundamental reason for the imbalance remains: DDO = large groups of mobs who hit hard, and melees have to get close to them to do anything. Given this, why would you ever make melees of ANY type worse at AOE attacking? It's basically a death sentence in higher difficulties. What needed to happen was to make melees more powerful, either by making them all WAY more durable (the direction taken in Epic Def Fighting) and/or able to kill way faster, as a trade-off for the massively higher risk they take to attack. (And yes, I'm aware of elite melee players who destroy content, but the investment needed for them to be survivable is ridiculously high.) I am all for the idea that a THF specialist should be the best AOE melee style while TWF should be tops for melee single-target, but it's wrong-headed to achieve this by nerfing either given where melee is compared to ranged or, what is truly king in DDO, casters.

So, how to buff melee overall, while preserving the flavor and trade-offs of different melee styles? Lots of good ideas in this thread. Personally, at the very least, I think THF shouldn't lose glancing blows against those big bosses, and should instead see their cleaves benefit from attack speed, glancing blows, etc. As others have noted, the current strikethrough proposal has basically no synergy with the cleaves THF toons use a lot. As well, TWF Tempests shouldn't have their signature AOE ability--tier 5 people, that's a huge opportunity cost--nuked. I was hoping when the tempest pass came it would drop DOD and other tier 5s to 1 AP for the top tier, to bring the cost into line with the tier 5s in kensei--and don't forget the other tradeoff for that Tempest dps, which is crappier defenses on PRR and MRR than fighters or pallies. The proposed change is beyond disappointing, and will discourage play of what is one of D&D's (and the fantasy genre's) most iconic classes.

I really hope there's a rethink on all of this before it goes live.

PS: From OP, "Dance of Death's buff now grants you the ability to Strikethrough with melee attacks regardless of Combat Style for the duration of the buff (10 seconds), and grants +0%/100%/200% Strikethrough Chance for the duration of the buff." So, my first point of DOD gives me...nothing? Coco wrote that all playstyles have a default Strikethrough of 20% when not moving, and tier 1 of DOD adds nothing more. Huh? edit: apologies for my misreading about everyone getting 20% strikethrough, was up too late Thanks Xgya for the correction! Still, tier 1 of DOD does nothing while TWF

[Xgya]

PS: From OP, "Dance of Death's buff now grants you the ability to Strikethrough with melee attacks regardless of Combat Style for the duration of the buff (10 seconds), and grants +0%/100%/200% Strikethrough Chance for the duration of the buff." So, my first point of DOD gives me...nothing? Coco wrote that all playstyles have a default Strikethrough of 20% when not moving, and tier 1 of DOD adds nothing more. Huh?

Two-handed weapon users have a base 20% when not moving.
You're absolutely right - the first tier of Dance does absolutely nothing but go on cooldown, since Tempests get absolutely no source of Strikethrough anywhere.

As written, it also stops working while moving.
And unlike current Dance of Death, you can't activate it, use Exposing Strike and have it Bluff all the nearby enemies you hit. In fact, Exposing Strike won't even Strikethrough, only normal attacks will.

That last clause makes it a lot worse for Paladins than current Glancing Blow - Glancing Smites was a pretty big chunk of single target damage.
I guess DPS-based melee Paladins needed the nerf, seeing how prevalent they are these days, right?

[Innokentiy]

Can someone else confirm that twitching THF no longer increases attack speed?

I can confirm. I just tested it yesterday, Lama was lagging as hell, so I couldnt get any numbers but animation is 100% broken.

And of course I cant pass by this fix. I am playing DDO since 2011 (about 9 years with some breaks), I am not so active on forums and most of the time playing with my guildies. I love this game enough to be a permanent vip, even when taking long breaks. And I love it mostly for 2 reasons: 1 is a ton of possible builds that can be calculated in some way (also as item builds) makes me thinking about every detail most of lives I am running and I really enjoy of building process, and 2 is presence of skilled-playing or power-playing advantages. By these advantages I do not mean any cheating or bug-using things, and THF twitch-fighting is definitely not belongs to this category, it doesnt even gives any really big power. Twitching is the one of most skill-demanded advantage, it requires a lot of practice time to make all moves sharp and stable especially when you need to click a tons of active abilities at the same time. I would say it is one of unique things in game that make difference from other MMOs. And after all it is still not so special thing in terms of DPS, with previous THF system you just could be in line with DPS of TWF fighters (I mean single-targed fighting), but, I repeat, it is not easy to achieve.
So in conclusion I want to say, devs, this is the most disappointing decision for all 9 years I spend in your game. Please reconsider this change.

[A-O]

I can confirm. I just tested it yesterday, Lama was lagging as hell, so I couldnt get any numbers but animation is 100% broken.

And of course I cant pass by this fix. I am playing DDO since 2011 (about 9 years with some breaks), I am not so active on forums and most of the time playing with my guildies. I love this game enough to be a permanent vip, even when taking long breaks. And I love it mostly for 2 reasons: 1 is a ton of possible builds that can be calculated in some way (also as item builds) makes me thinking about every detail most of lives I am running and I really enjoy of building process, and 2 is presence of skilled-playing or power-playing advantages. By these advantages I do not mean any cheating or bug-using things, and THF twitch-fighting is definitely not belongs to this category, it doesnt even gives any really big power. Twitching is the one of most skill-demanded advantage, it requires a lot of practice time to make all moves sharp and stable especially when you need to click a tons of active abilities at the same time. I would say it is one of unique things in game that make difference from other MMOs. And after all it is still not so special thing in terms of DPS, with previous THF system you just could be in line with DPS of TWF fighters (I mean single-targed fighting), but, I repeat, it is not easy to achieve.
So in conclusion I want to say, devs, this is the most disappointing decision for all 9 years I spend in your game. Please reconsider this change.

That's a pretty rough ~17% dmg nerf to THF then. The other changes are brilliant imo, but this might need addressing. Probably by bringing standing THF up to twitch attackspeed (5% aspd per feat would do it), or by adding a new feat similar to knight's training, increasing multiplier / range on THF weapons to that of SWF / TWF weapons.

[Innokentiy]

That's a pretty rough ~17% dmg nerf to THF then. The other changes are brilliant imo, but this might need addressing. Probably by bringing standing THF up to twitch attackspeed (5% aspd per feat would do it), or by adding a new feat similar to knight's training, increasing multiplier / range on THF weapons to that of SWF / TWF weapons.

Actually my post is not about overall dps loss, but about that twitch-fighting trick. I dont care if they will bring back those 17% dmg to standing THF, I don't want to play THF anymore cas I dont like a kinda casual standing-still-fighting-style. I like when I need some extra dexterity, reflexes and quick wits (as in case of caster gameplay) to get an extra dps or other benefits, not just shiny build full of top items. Btw this is a reason why I hate playing tanks nowadays, but I have to do it for guild needs)))

[Fauxknight]

So in interest in giving hard(er) data regarding regarding glancing blows I did the math for my bear tank.


Against non-crittable targets glancing blows account for 17% of my single target dps.
Against fully crittable targets glancing blows account for 11% of my single target dps.

Considering I only have 25% fort bypass, I think the total will lean more towards the non-crittable target end there. Obviously there are many more circumstances that can throw this all over the place like specific resistances, but to keep math on the simpler side this works.



Under the new system I believe my bear has 65% strikethrough, 20 base and +15x3 for the fighting feats. This means against non-crittable targets vs the old system:

Single target = 83% damage output
Two target = 116% damage output
Three target = 101% damage output
Four target = 89% damage output
Ten target = 53% damage output


Against crittable targets the numbers will be up across the board, but there would still only be a damage increase in the 2-3 (maybe 4) target range, with losses being taken on 1 target or against large numbers of targets.

Honestly the numbers surprised me, I was expecting the new system to be much more powerful against 2 targets since that seems to be it's primary focus. Because I was expecting the 2 target number to be soo much higher, I was also expecting the new system to come out ahead in the 3 target range as well, not for it to be basically even with the current system. Bears only getting 65% strikethrough keep these numbers down. Non-bears get 100%+ strikethrough, but they also get more glancing blows in a similar ratio, meaning outside of more extreme individual specs the percent values in the long run won't be massively different.

[parttimewarrior]

Regarding Dance of Death:
[*]It has been clear to us for quite some time that Tempest's ability to hit four targets simultaneously for full damage AND its very strong single-target output were not where we wanted them to be for balance. It should be very strong at single-target, OR less strong at single-target but able to do that damage across multiple targets, but not both.[*]In shifting AOE toward Two Handed Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting's role becomes better defined as "strong single-target damage", and Dance of Death needed to be adjusted as a result.[/LIST]

We're game for adjusting it further in a number of ways; there have been good suggestions in this thread, including making it not require a hit first. We're going to poke at it a bit before Round 2.

If we look at tabletop D&D, Two Weapon Fighting as long as I remember (and it is quite long) was the way to go if you wanted to attack multiple targets at once, while Two Handed players usually went for single target damage with cleave effect (which essentially wasn't an AOE ability). Sure, DDO is not quite tabletop D&D mechanics-wise, but I feel that choosing between two options you've chosen the less logical one.

[Arlathen]

The Feedback
I wanted to provide some feedback from an actual gameplay, 'Fun', perspective after running LE Sharn quests on my FotW THF Paladin on Lammania. So please bare in mind KotC buffs to damage are part of this overall picture.

I'm going to stay away from actual numbers, there plenty of people in the thread that can speculate on numbers better than me in here. But my Paladin on live hits for around 750+ first damage number, has 100% Doublestrike, and can happily solo LE Sharn Quests at present.

1. Single Target
It's definitly slower to kill, especially when I don't push any "kill MOAR" buttons like Adrenaline + Exalted Smite, and I think this will be significantly more noticeable the more HP the mobs have. I think this is going to be noticeable party wide when I'm Guild Raiding, and is certainly going to up the danger level for me when I solo or play in higher difficulty content like raids.

2. Two Targets
Now we're talking. Yep, its definitly faster and easier to kill here, no doubt about it. No dispute from me that Strikethrough is effective for 2 target situations over Glancing Blows.

3. Three or more targets
Its difficult to equate here, but I think here the speed to kill is a bit of a wash, especially when you use Dire Charge allowing you to mow down two mobs at once and move on. The problem here is though is it doesnt feel like our old, AoE THF style. It feels like I'm TWF, where my offhand attacks are hitting a 2nd target in range, and everything else isn't being touched, and that makes me Sad Panda.

From a numbers point of view, Strikethrough is probably fine for multiple targets, and I'm fine with that.

From a numbers point of view, Strikethrough is not probably fine for single targets, simply because we've lost DPS overall here and that makes me less viable as either a solo player or as a Guild Raid member.

The bottom line is, from a 'feel', or 'fun' standing point, I'm sorry to say I don't like the mechanic. It's just not the old "I run into a pack of mobs swinging my sword and see floating numbers all over the place, with everything getting damaged at once". For me personally, this is why I play THF, even though it's currently sub-optimal vs other styles.

The Suggestion
What do I make as suggest to improve then?

1. Preserve the Glancing Blow system but improve it as follows:

No Feats: 1 Glancing Blow on the 1st Swing, and Glancing Blows strike for 20% of your main attack damage.
THF Feats: 2 Glancing Blows on the 1st and 2nd Swings, +10% Glancing Blow Damage, +10% Strikethrough
ITHF Feats: 3 Glancing Blows on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Swings, +10% Glancing Blow Damage, +10% Strikethrough
GTHF Feats: 4 Glancing Blows on all four Swings, +10% Glancing Blow Damage, +10% Strikethrough
PTHF: +10% Glancing Blow damage, +20% Strike-through.

2. Remove the 'chance to proc weapon effects', and simply have all glancing blows proc effects. TWF gets to have 100% uptime on its weapon effects, so this is another change that could help close the gap.

3. Keep Strikethrough, but use it as a scaling mechanic to allow Glancing Blows to critically hit.
I.E 100% Strikethrough = +100% Critical Damage, or effectively a x2 Critical Multiplier
I.E 200% Strikethrough = +200% Critical Damage, or effectively a x3 Critical Multiplier

Your Glancing Blow critical damage is limited by both the Strikethrough percent available and the maximum Critical Multiplier available for the Glancing Blow To-Hit Roll. So if you had x7 Crit Multiplier and 200% Strikethrough, then your glanicng blows would effectively still only be at a x3 Critical multiplier.

Because of the large percentages required for some weapons and their achievable 19-20 Critical Multiplier, you could also introduce itemization for both Glancing Blow Damage and Strikethrough. I could see Strikethrough percentages following a similar itemization progression to say half of what the current Fortification curve is, for instance. THF Weapons themselves could then also have Insight and Quality bonuses to Strikethrough.

Thanks for reading

Ranger Side Note: I do not like the change to Dance of Death. The uptime and cooldown changes are especially cruel. My suggestion would be to limit the ability to hit 3 targets maximum, and preserve the uptime percentage on this. Its a very fun and unique playstyle and I don't want to see that changed for Rangers.

[RS-Makk]

I’m a bit late to the party but wanted to chime in with respect to the change to DoD/tempest.

I understand the new strike through mechanic for THF AoE. Not sure why DoD has to change to use that mechanic. If some adjustment needs to be made to DoD why. It keep the old mechanic (thus allowing for effects to apply to all targets) and simply adjust other elements such as number of targets and/or cool downs?

That said, what made tempest awesome is that it can have solid AoE while also having good single target DPS. A nice balanced option. If the AoE / DoD is significantly changed.. why play a ranger tempest for melee TWF DPS when I could play rogue for top DPS, or fighter for solid DOS while adding survivability?

[xTethx]

- Remove movement penalty for strike thru, feat or no
- Dance of Death 20 sec cd, 100%/175%/250% strike thru, changed to trance clicky, twf only
- Bring glancing exactly as it was and add strike thru in addition
- Scale strike thru down, in house testing required for good baseline
- Remove x2 ability scaling, remove additional melee power (keep 6)
- Allow cleaves to doublestrike and keep glancing to 1 hit, maybe scale cd up a bit